Jump to content


Wading Gear

New Content New Equipment Equipment New Update Player Suggestion Experiment

  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

GrumblingGrenade #1 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:07 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 6008 battles
  • 2,204
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-04-2013

Hello, WoT community!

 

Before I post this onto the "Player Suggestions" forum, I'd like to hear from the rest of the community on adding a new type of equipment to the game: "Wading Gear". I'll soon get this onto the "Player Suggestions" forum if it is liked, or I'll abolish the idea if it isn't, though I'd like to hear your thoughts on this proposal before I take it elsewhere on the forums.

;)

 

So, what is wading gear? Well, it's pretty self-explanatory; wading gear is equipment added to tanks which enables them to travel through deeper bodies of water. Here's what it looks like on M4 Sherman tanks, (not a Sherman Duplex Drive tank):

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Informative

Wading gear was widely used during the D-Day Landings of June, 1944; primarily used to get tanks ashore from landing crafts that were relatively close to the beaches. These tanks are not to be confused with Sherman DD, (Duplex Drive), tanks, which were Sherman tanks that were amphibious, although many did sink. Wading tanks were also used to cross rivers and lakes, and to ferry troops and munitions across. Many tanks were fitted with wading gear, such as the A27M Cruiser Tank Cromwell and Churchill variants. Wading gear comprised mainly of extended air intakes and exhaust pipes/ventilators, however, little extras were added to aid buoyancy, and the hulls were welded to be wholly watertight. Wading gear often enabled an AFV to be fully submersible, though this put the crew more at risk of flooding through the vents and intakes. However, it wasn't just wading tanks that were submersible. Tanks such as the Pz.Kpfw VIII Maus were actually designed to be fully submersible, reaching depths of up to 10 feet, and using a snorkel to breath through.

 

The Game

Well, how could wading gear be added to the game? I think that wading gear, if it were to be included, should be added as a new type of equipment compatible only with some tanks, as a lot of equipment is. On the other hand, it would not be necessary for wading gear to allow a tank to sit in water indefinitely - there should still be a limit. I think that having wading gear equipped should extend the overall depth by which a tank is allowed to travel in before the countdown begins, and the countdown should be prolonged by at least 5 seconds when the depth limit has been exceeded. Wading gear should not change the ways that the firing mechanics work when in a "countdown" depth of water, where you cannot fire or move your turret, otherwise, this piece of equipment would be much too empowering.

 

Wading gear could also change the appearance of the tank; almost like adding a new or different visually altering module, and should result in extended exhaust pipes and other methods of ventilation. Unfortunately, this would inhibit the performance of turreted vehicles significantly, as they would not be able to fully rotate their turrets and hit targets behind them, though this could be an adequate balance to an empowering piece of equipment. Depending on WG's preference, wading gear could be a complex piece of equipment, (where the players have to pay 10 gold to have it removed) or a standard piece of equipment. Making it complex could result in players buying gold to have it removed if they do not like the potential changes it brings, (good for WG) or players could just destroy it and be done with it. 

 

Snorkels

While definitive wading gear should be exclusive for some tanks, that doesn't mean that others can't have snorkels. Snorkels would have pretty much the same effect as wading gear, only reduced by a fraction, (maybe, a lessened depth limit in comparison to wading gear, or a lessened countdown number in comparison). Snorkels could be available to all tanks of all nations as a piece of standard equipment, meaning that 10 gold does not need to be paid to have it removed, and can be interchangeable between all tanks other than open-topped ones, for obvious reasons. Snorkels could also be available to enclosed artillery, which is a minority.

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

More Images

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

So, what do you think? Do you reckon that either wading gear or snorkels could work in WoT, or would they crash and burn? Post your opinions below, and it'll be based off of this that I decide to stick this idea on the "Player Suggestions" forum, or to rethink it or abolish it. Thanks for reading! Regardless of your feedback, all recommendations, criticisms and other forms of response will all be given a +1 from me, (unless they are an infringement of the forum rules or are irrelevant); I appreciate it, though please bear in mind that if you haven't yet received one, it is probably due to my quota being expired!

 

Best regards,

 

GrumblingGrenade

:)


Edited by GrumblingGrenade, 03 February 2015 - 04:37 PM.


Homer_J #2 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:12 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Moderator
  • 33644 battles
  • 37,589
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-03-2010

Old idea which was considered by the devs around the time that physics was introduced.  Decided it would require rework of too many maps.

 

Duplex Drive would make you a sitting duck, unable to fire back.

 

Snorkeling tanks popping up at random places would be liked even less than invisible enemies.



GrumblingGrenade #3 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:24 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 6008 battles
  • 2,204
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-04-2013

View PostHomer_J, on 03 February 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Old idea which was considered by the devs around the time that physics was introduced.  Decided it would require rework of too many maps.

 

Duplex Drive would make you a sitting duck, unable to fire back.

 

Snorkeling tanks popping up at random places would be liked even less than invisible enemies.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

I never suggested that the Sherman Duplex Drive be added, that was simply to avoid confusion, (rather than create it ^^). However, it was good of you to point this out. I reckon that the idea could work with some maps and fail with others, though it's just a case of when certain equipment is needed depending on maps and some isn't. For example, wading gear and snorkels would be useless on maps with no water, (quite obviously) though they would be really useful on maps where there is quite a lot of it. Call me optimistic, though I think that snorkels especially could work quite well on maps such as Erlenberg, Komarin, Malinovka, Serene Coast, Swamp, Arctic Region, and Fjords, and I think that it could encourage altering adopted tactics and bring an amusing change in gameplay for these maps too. Plus, snorkelling tanks that indeed, pop up in random places, would hopefully encourage an increase in situational awareness and also would make the game more challenging on some maps. I don't think that the maps would need reworks, I just think that the players would need to reconsider tactics.

 

Thanks for the feedback, though! I, (generally) accept criticisms and try to respond to them, so I thank you very much for giving me your view on this!

:)


Edited by GrumblingGrenade, 03 February 2015 - 04:25 PM.


wims80 #4 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:25 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 10801 battles
  • 4,611
  • Member since:
    07-18-2012
A snorkle is a logistical item that has no use in an action arcade game like this. It's not something you can just pop on and drive through rivers with. It takes a lot of time to put on and a lot of time to take off again. It's not a combat item. Having snorkles would be like having trucks to transport our tanks from one side of the map to the other. It just doesnt make any sense in a game like this (or just about any other game type for that matter)

GrumblingGrenade #5 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:35 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 6008 battles
  • 2,204
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-04-2013

View Postwims80, on 03 February 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

A snorkle is a logistical item that has no use in an action arcade game like this. It's not something you can just pop on and drive through rivers with. It takes a lot of time to put on and a lot of time to take off again. It's not a combat item. Having snorkles would be like having trucks to transport our tanks from one side of the map to the other. It just doesnt make any sense in a game like this (or just about any other game type for that matter)

 

The same applies for other pieces of equipment, especially the complex ones, and even camouflage nets take some time to apply to a tank while in a real battle situation. I'm not suggesting that snorkels be used like, for example, binoculars, where they come into effect a short time after the requirements have been met. I'm saying that a snorkel is active from the start of the game until the end, running in the background, like a "Gun Rammer" or "Improved Ventilation Classes". To put it simply, a snorkel would be a piece of equipment you mount on the tank while in the garage, and then it runs the game mechanic throughout the duration of a battle, if you catch my meaning. I apologize for making this unclear in my original post, though you do have to bear in mind that WoT is also a game. There is a sense of realism, though the degree is small. If it were real life, then your post would be very true and relevant, though in a game such as WoT, it is less so. What I mean is that a snorkel is on the tank at the start of the game and right through to the end.

 

I apologize for making this unclear, I hope that I have responded to your post in a meaningful way that is relevant to what you are saying. Thank you for your feedback!

:)



fREDDY2 #6 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:44 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 19791 battles
  • 511
  • Member since:
    07-23-2011
Main problem I see is  that there are only a few maps where this would actually make any difference, making this rather pointless in using up an equipment slot, just on the small chance you get a map with a decent amount of water. All other equipment is useful (to a certain degree) on all maps, but there are very limited occasions when going into the water would be a significant advantage. Probably only useful on CW where you know in advance what the map will be.

Mr_Sukebe #7 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:47 PM

    Major

  • Player
  • 33212 battles
  • 2,623
  • Member since:
    06-04-2011

Let's consider the practicalities of this.

Just where would you actually use wading gear?  I can't think of any map that you might need it, unless you're suggesting that it's for say crossing the river on Erlenberg where there isn't a bridge or fording point.


Other questions:

 - Generally took time to add, and I assume remove from real tanks.  Would you suggest that a tank would have to start with it in place at the start of a battle and that it might take say one min to remove in game time?  If so, what happens when the map is say Himmelsdorf?

 - I assume you'd stop the tank firing whilst the kit is in place

 - By default, I see little use for the gear on most maps.  Doesn't that mean that the player who used it would by default put his team at a disadvantage as you'd be at least one tank down that most likely couldn't move or fire until the kit is removed

 - Think about how tomatoes would use this.  It's bad enough that they already wander off to admire the scenery or hide behind arty.  What's the probabilities of some of them regularly taking their tank sightseeing at the seeside, just because they could

 

Lastly, this would require genuine effort by WG to:

 - Identify whilst tanks could have the kit fitted (assuming some atttempt at historical accuracy was attempted)

 - Model the visuals of the kit

 - Model the implications of the kit being hit by fire and damaged, thus resulting in the tank maybe sinking, but possibly at a slower rate

etc

 

Do you REALLY want WG to spend OUR funding in wading with all the other issues out there?  Personally I'd rather they sort out a number of other issues first, e.g. limiting the use of premium ammo, introduction of leagues etc.



Salsify #8 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:50 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 9480 battles
  • 575
  • Member since:
    12-05-2013
For a snorkel, a lot of the puddles are too deep and many have slopes which are unclimbable. I can't see it working without a major overhaul of the maps and I can't honestly see WG doing that.

Brutaluc #9 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:51 PM

    Staff Sergeant

  • Clan Diplomat
  • 19853 battles
  • 459
  • Member since:
    08-23-2013

View Postwims80, on 03 February 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

A snorkle is a logistical item that has no use in an action arcade game like this. It's not something you can just pop on and drive through rivers with. It takes a lot of time to put on and a lot of time to take off again. It's not a combat item. Having snorkles would be like having trucks to transport our tanks from one side of the map to the other. It just doesnt make any sense in a game like this (or just about any other game type for that matter)

 

You think we can have trucks?

 

That would be awesome, i've got some really slow tanks. Trucks for transport!



EmperorSafirius #10 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:54 PM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 21371 battles
  • 3,400
  • Member since:
    08-07-2011

Well, good job on the thread :)

Anyways, this is my opinion, in short:

 

-tanks would be exposed because most/if not all, moved at extremely low speeds while in water

-not enough maps where this could be usefull + maps are too small for this to be a viable flanking manouver

-it could be missused alot (hide in water so you can't get shot at)

-only few tanks could really use this

-tanks that were specificaly made for this(amphibious ones) would only be low tier tanks like BT-2 and the like..



shrapnel_bait #11 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:55 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 2794 battles
  • 680
  • Member since:
    01-12-2014
The other thing to remember is the effect wading or snorkelling through water would have on a tanks speed, how slow would a tank be actually traversing a body of water?

Ceeb #12 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:55 PM

    Lieutenant General

  • Beta Tester
  • 34848 battles
  • 6,667
  • [BEXF] BEXF
  • Member since:
    01-14-2011

They haven't put Submarines into WoWS and you want snorkling tanks. ? 

 

Cant see it happening. 

 

 


Edited by Ceeb, 03 February 2015 - 04:56 PM.


Brutaluc #13 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:57 PM

    Staff Sergeant

  • Clan Diplomat
  • 19853 battles
  • 459
  • Member since:
    08-23-2013

Also more on-topic, these would be awesome too!

 

Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler
Spoiler

 



Ceeb #14 Posted 03 February 2015 - 04:59 PM

    Lieutenant General

  • Beta Tester
  • 34848 battles
  • 6,667
  • [BEXF] BEXF
  • Member since:
    01-14-2011
And another point.... whats the speed of one of these, 4 knots give or take a knot?  thats walking speed or a jog at least.....might as well paint a yellow duck on the side of the tank. 

cellaman7 #15 Posted 03 February 2015 - 05:06 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 34760 battles
  • 4,553
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    03-31-2013

Fun idea but I tend to stay away from any water on most maps. Something like that is starting to cross the line from arcade to simulator.

Not going to be able to cross through Lakeville. Dev's have made most maps water friendly lately.

 

They even took away Port so when you get in from the pub drunk, you don't hit the wrong key and drive backwards off the dock! :teethhappy:



evilchaosmonkey #16 Posted 03 February 2015 - 05:36 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 18596 battles
  • 2,158
  • [EIGHT] EIGHT
  • Member since:
    05-04-2013

As no one else has said it, I will. Yes, I know that doesn't mean it should be said 

 

It needs to be mandatory equipment on arty to stop them suiciding instead of fighting, but with a 5 min wade time.

 

On a more serious note, nice idea OP, good to see an orignal thought in this place - very rare indeed :-)



ApocalypseSquad #17 Posted 03 February 2015 - 05:42 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 27189 battles
  • 2,213
  • Member since:
    07-31-2011
I quite like the idea, but can't think of a single tank or map on which i would want to use it (at the expense of other kit). 

GrumblingGrenade #18 Posted 03 February 2015 - 05:56 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 6008 battles
  • 2,204
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-04-2013

View PostMr_Sukebe, on 03 February 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

Let's consider the practicalities of this.

Just where would you actually use wading gear? I can imagine in it many maps. I think that wading gear would do quite nicely on maps such as Serene Coast, where a player can infiltrate the series of islands and geographical rises and falls through wading through water. I think that wading gear would do quite nicely on Fjords, for players looking to infiltrate choke points and certain areas through the water bodies there. It could work nicely on Malinovka, for attacking and flanking an enemy push through struggling through the bodies of water on that map. There are many maps where I feel that this piece of equipment could do well on, though it is after all an idea of mine, so it may be simply delusional.  I can't think of any map that you might need it, unless you're suggesting that it's for say crossing the river on Erlenberg where there isn't a bridge or fording point. Or to wade gradually through the river itself straight on to their side, if you have the patience. Still, at least you'll be going faster than a TOG.


Other questions:

 - Generally took time to add, and I assume remove from real tanks.  Would you suggest that a tank would have to start with it in place at the start of a battle and that it might take say one min to remove in game time?  If so, what happens when the map is say Himmelsdorf? It wouldn't be removed. It would be on the tank for the whole time during the battle, like other pieces of equipment. Also, it would not take time to come into effect, you'd literally just drive into a body of water and it'd begin working.

 - I assume you'd stop the tank firing whilst the kit is in place It depends on whether actual wading gear is mounted or a simple snorkel. If wading gear is mounted, then obviously, tank performance will be inhibited, though I see this as a fair balance. Wading gear will prevent full turret traverse, but not the gun firing, it will still do this. Whereas, with a snorkel, actual weapons usage will be unchanged throughout the game, unless you are submerged.

 - By default, I see little use for the gear on most maps. I'd like to say on some. Doesn't that mean that the player who used it would by default put his team at a disadvantage as you'd be at least one tank down that most likely couldn't move or fire until the kit is removed The same applies for, let's say, artillery on town maps. They are not going to do an awful lot. And what about turretless TDs on maps such as Himmelsdorf, or other tightly enclosed town maps. All you will need to do is adapt and re-shape your playing style, and that's only if you have wading gear equipped. Snorkels would not inhibit vehicle capability at all. You'll find that, in the case of a good player, having wading gear equipped on maps such as these would give the team no such disadvantage. Plus, players on their side may also have it equipped. It's one of these risks that players will need to take, such as driving artillery with the risk of a tightly enclosed map being given.

 - Think about how tomatoes would use this.  It's bad enough that they already wander off to admire the scenery or hide behind arty.  What's the probabilities of some of them regularly taking their tank sightseeing at the seeside, just because they could Is their any problem with this? Sure, it'd be annoying, but eventually, the novelty will wear off, (well, one can hope ^^). Besides, they weren't gonna do much anyway, and so long as they're having fun, that's good enough for me, (this explains my low win rate, not to mention that I am a tomato myself).

 

Lastly, this would require genuine effort by WG to:

 - Identify whilst tanks could have the kit fitted (assuming some atttempt at historical accuracy was attempted) True

 - Model the visuals of the kit True

 - Model the implications of the kit being hit by fire and damaged, thus resulting in the tank maybe sinking, but possibly at a slower rate Very true, and an excellent idea offered here.

etc

 

Do you REALLY want WG to spend OUR funding in wading with all the other issues out there?  Personally I'd rather they sort out a number of other issues first, e.g. limiting the use of premium ammo, introduction of leagues etc. I'd agree. But seeing as they aren't going to, (looking at 9.6 doesn't herald much hope for me) all we can do is make suggestions.

 

Good to see some in-depth criticisms here. I'm going to give some in-depth answers to each, thank you for your feedback! This has been perhaps one of the best and most thought-out responses so far, thank you again. This will certainly receive a +1 from me!

:)



GrumblingGrenade #19 Posted 03 February 2015 - 06:01 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 6008 battles
  • 2,204
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-04-2013

View PostCeeb, on 03 February 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

And another point.... whats the speed of one of these, 4 knots give or take a knot?  thats walking speed or a jog at least.....might as well paint a yellow duck on the side of the tank. 

 

View Postshrapnel_bait, on 03 February 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

The other thing to remember is the effect wading or snorkelling through water would have on a tanks speed, how slow would a tank be actually traversing a body of water?

It depends on the depth of the water that you are wading through. If the water is only, let's say, a meter or two meters deep, then the vehicle will not lose an awful lot of speed and mobility depending on engine power and aerodynamics, (this will unfortunately create more work for WG: works on water resistance). If it were the Sherman Duplex Drive, then yes, though I'll re-emphasise in saying that I never suggested that the Duplex Drive be introduced. Wading gear and snorkels allow a tank to drive on the bottom of the water, not float above it. Despite this, I appreciate this feedback; another two relevant and much-needed criticisms. It'd take a lot of work to make this suggestion function well in a battle, and your consideration here is very good!

 

Thanks for the feedback!

:)


Edited by GrumblingGrenade, 03 February 2015 - 06:03 PM.


GrumblingGrenade #20 Posted 03 February 2015 - 06:13 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 6008 battles
  • 2,204
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-04-2013

View PostEmperorSafirius, on 03 February 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Well, good job on the thread :)

Anyways, this is my opinion, in short:

 

-tanks would be exposed because most/if not all, moved at extremely low speeds while in water This depends on the depth of the water, as well as engine power and how aerodynamic the design of the tank is, as well as other factors that determine speed on land. While in certain tanks while partially/mostly submerged, I have managed 40km/h, and when full submerged, I have managed a decent 30hm/h. Mobility will be reduced, though it also depends on what tank you are in.

-not enough maps where this could be usefull + maps are too small for this to be a viable flanking manouver There are enough, the problem is, you are right here. The maps are too small or the bodies of water aren't large enough for the flanking manoeuvre to work on about 80% of the maps in WoT. This would involve some work from WG to fix, which I agree with many of you in saying that it is hard to imagine. 

-it could be missused alot (hide in water so you can't get shot at) This depends on the angle of the land and of the gun depression. Tanks that are submerged cannot fire out of the water, so they would only be sealing their own fate in doing so.

-only few tanks could really use this This applies to wading gear. Snorkels can be used by all enclosed tanks, though using it to great avail is a different story. Fewer tanks will use it to exceptional benefit, though it depends on the skills of the player, as well as their common sense.

-tanks that were specificaly made for this(amphibious ones) would only be low tier tanks like BT-2 and the like.. ​I never recommended that amphibious tanks be introduced. I simply pointed out that the Sherman DD was amphibious, and never suggested that any amphibious tanks be added. I am sorry if you inferred this from my original post.

 

Thank you for your feedback; I've tried to adequately respond to your views. This feedback is much appreciated, thank you!

:)






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users