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WG "does not consider artillery to be a problem"


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zakiscool #341 Posted 11 April 2015 - 06:40 PM

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View PostBlue_Badger, on 11 April 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

 

Ok, so it doesn't mean "broken", but it does mean problem, which is the whole point. 

 

doesnt nessecarily mean a problem with arty, could be a problem with players

Sickie79 #342 Posted 11 April 2015 - 06:47 PM

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Arty could probably stay exactly as it is if the maps were 4 times the size.

 

One of the (many) issues with arty for me is the fact that they have limited places they can go, but almost limitless reach, which creates an arty free shadow on the map, leaving 90% of the already limited map a no-go area.

 

With bigger maps arty would have to decide to go somewhere based on your teams movements, rather than just drive to the arty spot, and everyone else just assume the position. 

 

Bigger maps, it's the way forward. 

 

 

 

 

(unfortunately, this will never happen, so arty needs fixing) 



Blue_Badger #343 Posted 11 April 2015 - 07:02 PM

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View Postzakiscool, on 11 April 2015 - 05:40 PM, said:

 

doesnt nessecarily mean a problem with arty, could be a problem with players

 

Dunno how you can fix that though. I guess they'll just have to adapt ;)

Hold_The_Door #344 Posted 11 April 2015 - 07:06 PM

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View PostBlue_Badger, on 11 April 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

 

Dunno how you can fix that though. I guess they'll just have to adapt ;)

 

​well unfortunately I guess we all just have to accept that we can be one shot from arty at anytime, it's a bad mechanic which is broken but wargaming won't fix the problem we just have to live with it 

Blue_Badger #345 Posted 11 April 2015 - 07:09 PM

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View PostElement6, on 11 April 2015 - 05:05 PM, said:

You will always get to a point where there is room for improvement, according to good players that know a lot about the game, but such an improvement is not guaranteed to be liked by people. Thing is, related to the cholrine and and researchers, a researched can find what is best for your organism, but your desires doesn't need to be in line with what is best for you organism. Alcohol is a prime example. It is very bad for you in high dosages, yet people go out on the weekends and has to be dragged home by their friends. They even know that it is harmful to them before they start drinking, they might even agree with the scientists, but they still do it out of desire. If there is no room for desire but only what is technically best for you...expect people to get bored. Prohibition era in the US is a testiment to this. They removed alcohol, and people brought it back again themselves, despite breaking the law. And today, in my country, aclohol is a major influence on people's health, yet it is sold to any and all citicens that have passed the age of 18. Why doesn't society listen to the expets, researchers, and adhere to their suggestions? Because they do not want to.

 

That is mybe why a unified unica distaste for artillery is not automatically shared by all players. It has something to do with what your goals in this game are. Unica goals are, for example, likely to differ from mine.

 

And that they can attempt to "fix" with game mechanics all they want.

 

This is very true, but as long as more people like than not like then where is the issue? You have to keep trying. It's not like I'm proposing they do something toally drastic which will turn current arty players away from the game. I want things to improve for them as well as currently arty has little impact on games winrate wise. 

 

people get bored when there is no adversity. In PvP gaming the challenge should always be the other players, not the game itself. This is why balance is important. Otherwise it's like running the 100m's only half the runners are going up hill and the leaders get shot at by arty :P

 

Bad analogy is bad but I hope you catch my drift. 



zakiscool #346 Posted 11 April 2015 - 07:13 PM

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View Postcrazywest, on 11 April 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

 

​well unfortunately I guess we all just have to accept that we can be one shot from arty at anytime, it's a bad mechanic which is broken but wargaming won't fix the problem we just have to live with it 

 

exactly

syy1965 #347 Posted 11 April 2015 - 07:46 PM

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WG "does not consider artillery to be a problem"

what i consider a problem are

1 camping NOOBs (not arty or TDs)

2 lemming NOOB trains

3 over armoured and gunned  TDs

4 not playing as a team

5 ignoring mini map

6 NOOBs quoting/looking at stats(they mean nothing) instead of game

and many other things !

the list goes on



SBKDisco #348 Posted 11 April 2015 - 11:22 PM

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View PostHugsAndKisses, on 08 April 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

Arty: All reward, no risk.

That's my biggest problem with it.

 

 

I concur your statement is utter cobblers.


 

Have you looked at the after battle damage scores since they released 9.6? If you had been paying attention to the amount of damage made by arty since the accuracy nerf, you would realise the huge reduction in damage in any game made by arty. Sure, very infrequently you'll see an arty make some epic damage, but in almost every game you'll see zero to less than 1000 damage by high tier arty. Until the last patch I was averaging over 1850 damage in the M53/55, now my average damage is 1404, lower than I was getting in the T8 M40/43. The changes they made to accuracy have had a hugely negative effect on arty far more than anything else.


 

It used to be a case of will my shot hit or won't it, now it's almost a certainty that it will miss. Now the question is; Will the shot fall short, go long or go wide.



dc_79 #349 Posted 12 April 2015 - 02:39 AM

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View PostRogDodgeUK, on 11 April 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

 

You have not offered anything tangible to this thread from the beginning anyway. Your posts make is quite clear why you do not like arty, even if others cannot see it in your posts,I can and thus you have just followed the time honored tradition of arty haters by whining and moaning that you want arty changed so YOU can better your individual performance. For over 3 years now this forum has been inundated with whiners and moaners about arty and it always come back to the same thing, those doing the complaining are the ones who care more about their stats and own performance. A few years back WG, under pressure from the whiners and moans did a major balance of arty. This had the knock on effect of making TD's look over powered so some TD's got re-balanced and now here we are again with players complaining about arty and the same argument, the same charts are used time and time again to try and justify their arguments that arty needs to be re-balanced AGAIN. 

 

Arty works and it always has but many refuse to comment to support it because as seen in this thread and many before it, anit-arty players use verbal abuse as a weapon to silence others. The only reason WG will re-balance arty again is because they are worried too many players will leave the game, nothing more, nothing less

so all those who don't like arty are just moaners and arty is fine and working perfectly but WG are going to balance it in fear of us leaving? 

 

seems legit.



troolie #350 Posted 12 April 2015 - 10:23 AM

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View PostSBKDisco, on 11 April 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

 

 

I concur your statement is utter cobblers.


 

Have you looked at the after battle damage scores since they released 9.6? If you had been paying attention to the amount of damage made by arty since the accuracy nerf, you would realise the huge reduction in damage in any game made by arty. Sure, very infrequently you'll see an arty make some epic damage, but in almost every game you'll see zero to less than 1000 damage by high tier arty. Until the last patch I was averaging over 1850 damage in the M53/55, now my average damage is 1404, lower than I was getting in the T8 M40/43. The changes they made to accuracy have had a hugely negative effect on arty far more than anything else.


 

It used to be a case of will my shot hit or won't it, now it's almost a certainty that it will miss. Now the question is; Will the shot fall short, go long or go wide.

 

It's irrelevant to the main issue with arty. The biggest gripe is who you do those damages to and the answer is always the same:

 

1) paper tanks that you shouldn't even think about targeting cause anyone on your team, including the scouts can easily damage/kill them

2) best player statwise that get stalked every battle. Of course the average Joe doesn't care about arty, he isn't being targeted as long as he doesn't make himself the only obvious target on the map.

3) slowest biggest tanks that can't avoid being spotted nor move fast enough to make arty miss

 

Be a yellow bob driving a russian med, arty won't ever bother with you till you're the last man standing.



zakiscool #351 Posted 12 April 2015 - 10:59 AM

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View Posttroolie, on 12 April 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

 

It's irrelevant to the main issue with arty. The biggest gripe is who you do those damages to and the answer is always the same:

 

1) paper tanks that you shouldn't even think about targeting cause anyone on your team, including the scouts can easily damage/kill them

2) best player statwise that get stalked every battle. Of course the average Joe doesn't care about arty, he isn't being targeted as long as he doesn't make himself the only obvious target on the map.

3) slowest biggest tanks that can't avoid being spotted nor move fast enough to make arty miss

 

Be a yellow bob driving a russian med, arty won't ever bother with you till you're the last man standing.

unfortunately thats not a problem with arty, its a problem with xvm



troolie #352 Posted 12 April 2015 - 11:34 AM

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View Postzakiscool, on 12 April 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

unfortunately thats not a problem with arty, its a problem with xvm

 

Spot a tomato in a reloading lorraine40t next to a T110E3 firing gold at your allies, you'll understand it's not just about XVM. It's about easy damage padding first, then about stats (smart target prioritization comes last if ever). Now if you're good and drive a paper tank, you hit the jackpot every battle.

Blue_Badger #353 Posted 12 April 2015 - 11:39 AM

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View PostSBKDisco, on 11 April 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

 

 

I concur your statement is utter cobblers.


 

Have you looked at the after battle damage scores since they released 9.6? If you had been paying attention to the amount of damage made by arty since the accuracy nerf, you would realise the huge reduction in damage in any game made by arty. Sure, very infrequently you'll see an arty make some epic damage, but in almost every game you'll see zero to less than 1000 damage by high tier arty. Until the last patch I was averaging over 1850 damage in the M53/55, now my average damage is 1404, lower than I was getting in the T8 M40/43. The changes they made to accuracy have had a hugely negative effect on arty far more than anything else.


 

It used to be a case of will my shot hit or won't it, now it's almost a certainty that it will miss. Now the question is; Will the shot fall short, go long or go wide.

 

 

So what? That just means artillery needs to made made more playable as well as fun to play against. 

 

Yes, all other tanks are fun to play against. It's basically the point of this game.



RogDodgeUK #354 Posted 12 April 2015 - 11:50 AM

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View Posttroolie, on 12 April 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

View PostSBKDisco, on 11 April 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

 

 

I concur your statement is utter cobblers.


 

Have you looked at the after battle damage scores since they released 9.6? If you had been paying attention to the amount of damage made by arty since the accuracy nerf, you would realise the huge reduction in damage in any game made by arty. Sure, very infrequently you'll see an arty make some epic damage, but in almost every game you'll see zero to less than 1000 damage by high tier arty. Until the last patch I was averaging over 1850 damage in the M53/55, now my average damage is 1404, lower than I was getting in the T8 M40/43. The changes they made to accuracy have had a hugely negative effect on arty far more than anything else.


 

It used to be a case of will my shot hit or won't it, now it's almost a certainty that it will miss. Now the question is; Will the shot fall short, go long or go wide.

 

It's irrelevant to the main issue with arty. The biggest gripe is who you do those damages to and the answer is always the same:

 

1) paper tanks that you shouldn't even think about targeting cause anyone on your team, including the scouts can easily damage/kill them

2) best player statwise that get stalked every battle. Of course the average Joe doesn't care about arty, he isn't being targeted as long as he doesn't make himself the only obvious target on the map.

3) slowest biggest tanks that can't avoid being spotted nor move fast enough to make arty miss

 

Be a yellow bob driving a russian med, arty won't ever bother with you till you're the last man standing.

 

Your reply shows, if any anything the majority of why the players who do not like arty, don't like arty and that's because they treat the game as purely an arcade type shoot them up again. This is the wrong attitude to take because while the game may have an arcade type shoot them up feel to it, it also encompasses military strategy and this is where players go wrong, they ignore the strategy side to the game and more often than not end up as cannon fodder. 

 

Any current or ex-military personnel will tell you that to gain the upper hand in battle, you must seek out and destroy the strongest and if known, most experienced opponent which will then give your side the upper hand. The introduction of XVM has handed this to arty on a plate. With XVM installed, they can now focus their attention on either the strongest tank(s) or the most experienced. Before XVM, all arty players knew about the opposing team was the tanks the players was using and by virtue of the tank list, see which tanks are the strongest and hope the team spots them. The one important thing arty and for that matter no body knew is how experienced the player is with that tank. If the actions of the enemy tank appear hap hazard, the team will be thinking that the player using it is not very experienced in it and can thus focus their attention on players who do seem to know what they are doing.  XVM now gives arty players the exact data they need to know who to go after and more often than not, by the virtue of the abuse you see in the chat, they've focused on the most experienced players. This is military strategy one on one and XVM has handed EVERYTHING to arty on a plate and they are making extremely good use of it.

 

Going back to the strategy aspect of the game, any military person, ex or current will also tell that when arty is present on the battlefield, you do not sit still because you become a sitting duck, but to find suitable cover or always be on the move.  Arty will either do one of two things, re-position to try and get in a good position to hit you or to focus on other tanks.  Re-positioning is dangerous because it means they either have to move further into the map to be able to hit you and thus give their own position away or loose time moving and lose the advantage of being able to focus and hit other tanks that your team are asking you to fire on.

 

Regarding the slow TD's. The one thing that is common with all these slow tanks is that they are very powerful and in the right hands can be devastating. TD's are not front line tanks, never have and never will be. They are snipers, they hide and fire from distance BUT this all falls apart if you have an enemy tank that rushes into your lines and spots nearly all of you. For a few seconds arty can pick and choose who to fire on and like i said before, military strategy dictates that the strongest are taken out first, and that usually means the slow but yet deadly TD's.  This is why your team needs to be focused on taking out any enemy rushes they see but this relies on your teammates knowing what they are doing and also have the map open but as many players know, there is a huge majority of players who turn off the map, why? best to ask them why they do it. Straight away this could put your team at a disadvantage and play into the hands of the arty player.

 

From the information above, you can see arty takes advantage of poor game play by the enemy and the advantage of XVM. This make arty extremely powerful and it is up to the players to combat this. As long as both of these scenarios occur, there is no amount of re-balancing, nerfing of accuracy, nerfing of shells, nefring of damage that will combat against bad game play and no amount of changes will combat who arty go after because there will still  be XVM who will give arty all the info they need of who to go after.

 

Why should WG make changes to something that is the product of the players, poor game play and XVM



ghost_tiger #355 Posted 12 April 2015 - 12:11 PM

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As arty player I always try to shoot at the most experienced players first. A noob T29 can be ignored for a while, while a blue T29 must die ASAP. It pays off to wait for a few seconds for a good shot. So in the end blue players tend to hate arty because they get focused most. Also at higher tiers (8 and above) there are no noob arty players and they have quite powerful machines in their hands.

 

Thanks to my poor stats I rarely get focused by arty when I play tanks, even when I play TOG 2. Because simply there are much better players to shoot at. I also know where arty doesn't shoot and go there.

 



Man_in_TD #356 Posted 12 April 2015 - 12:11 PM

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View PostRogDodgeUK, on 12 April 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

 

Your reply shows, if any anything the majority of why the players who do not like arty, don't like arty and that's because they treat the game as purely an arcade type shoot them up again. This is the wrong attitude to take because while the game may have an arcade type shoot them up feel to it, it also encompasses military strategy and this is where players go wrong, they ignore the strategy side to the game and more often than not end up as cannon fodder. 

 

Any current or ex-military personnel will tell you that to gain the upper hand in battle, you must seek out and destroy the strongest and if known, most experienced opponent which will then give your side the upper hand. The introduction of XVM has handed this to arty on a plate. With XVM installed, they can now focus their attention on either the strongest tank(s) or the most experienced. Before XVM, all arty players knew about the opposing team was the tanks the players was using and by virtue of the tank list, see which tanks are the strongest and hope the team spots them. The one important thing arty and for that matter no body knew is how experienced the player is with that tank. If the actions of the enemy tank appear hap hazard, the team will be thinking that the player using it is not very experienced in it and can thus focus their attention on players who do seem to know what they are doing.  XVM now gives arty players the exact data they need to know who to go after and more often than not, by the virtue of the abuse you see in the chat, they've focused on the most experienced players. This is military strategy one on one and XVM has handed EVERYTHING to arty on a plate and they are making extremely good use of it.

 

Going back to the strategy aspect of the game, any military person, ex or current will also tell that when arty is present on the battlefield, you do not sit still because you become a sitting duck, but to find suitable cover or always be on the move.  Arty will either do one of two things, re-position to try and get in a good position to hit you or to focus on other tanks.  Re-positioning is dangerous because it means they either have to move further into the map to be able to hit you and thus give their own position away or loose time moving and lose the advantage of being able to focus and hit other tanks that your team are asking you to fire on.

 

Regarding the slow TD's. The one thing that is common with all these slow tanks is that they are very powerful and in the right hands can be devastating. TD's are not front line tanks, never have and never will be. They are snipers, they hide and fire from distance BUT this all falls apart if you have an enemy tank that rushes into your lines and spots nearly all of you. For a few seconds arty can pick and choose who to fire on and like i said before, military strategy dictates that the strongest are taken out first, and that usually means the slow but yet deadly TD's.  This is why your team needs to be focused on taking out any enemy rushes they see but this relies on your teammates knowing what they are doing and also have the map open but as many players know, there is a huge majority of players who turn off the map, why? best to ask them why they do it. Straight away this could put your team at a disadvantage and play into the hands of the arty player.

 

From the information above, you can see arty takes advantage of poor game play by the enemy and the advantage of XVM. This make arty extremely powerful and it is up to the players to combat this. As long as both of these scenarios occur, there is no amount of re-balancing, nerfing of accuracy, nerfing of shells, nefring of damage that will combat against bad game play and no amount of changes will combat who arty go after because there will still  be XVM who will give arty all the info they need of who to go after.

 

Why should WG make changes to something that is the product of the players, poor game play and XVM

Come on,let's vote.Removal of arty or xvm?For the good players.



ghost_tiger #357 Posted 12 April 2015 - 12:14 PM

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View PostMan_in_TD, on 12 April 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Come on,let's vote.Removal of arty or xvm?For the good players.

 

Good players represent a tiny minority in the game and income. Therefore nothing needs to be removed and good players will remain as they are already addicted to the game. WG just needs to focus on masses, and thats players with 49% win ratio.

Blue_Badger #358 Posted 12 April 2015 - 12:32 PM

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View PostRogDodgeUK, on 12 April 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

Snip

 

I don't even know how to respond to this. It's like you think WoT's has anything at all to do with real life combat. It's just numbers are leveraging your advantage to the point where RNG can't kill you. That is all. This game is an arcade shooter, pure and simple. The players play the game to the best of their current abilities. Blaming players makes no sense whatsoever.

 

I might also add that war isn't designed to be fun, or fair to those involved. Online PvP games are. 



RNGD #359 Posted 12 April 2015 - 12:33 PM

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View PostSickie79, on 11 April 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

Arty could probably stay exactly as it is if the maps were 4 times the size.

 

One of the (many) issues with arty for me is the fact that they have limited places they can go, but almost limitless reach, which creates an arty free shadow on the map, leaving 90% of the already limited map a no-go area.

 

With bigger maps arty would have to decide to go somewhere based on your teams movements, rather than just drive to the arty spot, and everyone else just assume the position.

 

Bigger maps, it's the way forward.

 

 

 

 

(unfortunately, this will never happen, so arty needs fixing)

 

That is actually a good idea but the problem is that with bigger maps you would end up with super light set ups to play. One solution for this would be to boost view range so you can see and shoot from greater distances. But this would be a great buff for my Leo 1 or any tank with accurate gun and this is World of Rus meds. Range will be kept low so players like me think that having a more accurate gun than a rus med actually matters in 300meter fights

rikkelt #360 Posted 12 April 2015 - 12:43 PM

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View PostRogDodgeUK, on 12 April 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

stuff

 

Arty is fine, the playerbase is at fault.

 

Wait, what?
 






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