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T-54 First Prototype review vs Type59/T-44

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Kill_Broccoli #41 Posted 25 August 2015 - 05:10 PM

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personally, i think this will be easily forgotten when this come out

http://ritastatusrep...premium-mt.html

(hoping it won't be some reward for few)

 

prem for prem, i'll take a better gun over some armor every day.

 



lafeel #42 Posted 25 August 2015 - 06:58 PM

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View PostKill_Broccoli, on 25 August 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

personally, i think this will be easily forgotten when this come out

http://ritastatusrep...premium-mt.html

(hoping it won't be some reward for few)

 

prem for prem, i'll take a better gun over some armor every day.

 

Forgotten? I doubt it. But the T-44-100 will become the more popular choice, most likely.

 

Also, extra mobility is no bad thing either.



Per_Saukko_EU #43 Posted 25 August 2015 - 07:30 PM

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View PostKill_Broccoli, on 25 August 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

personally, i think this will be easily forgotten when this come out

http://ritastatusrep...premium-mt.html

(hoping it won't be some reward for few)

 

prem for prem, i'll take a better gun over some armor every day.

 

Not a chance that the T-44-100 will be better than Proto. Maybe more fun and slightly more consistent but its gun(which is better than Proto's) will just be quite bad instead of bad. The mobility is also better, but it's not a T-44 so the difference isn't that big. It still has average alpha and poor penetration that make the Proto bad against higher tiers. Meanwhile, the armor difference is HUGE. It will be a playable tank but I seriously doubt it will be a better choice than Proto, FCM or even T-34-3(with the virtue of preferential matchmaking). 


Edited by Per_Saukko_EU, 25 August 2015 - 07:33 PM.


Kill_Broccoli #44 Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:28 AM

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View PostPer_Saukko_EU, on 25 August 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Not a chance that the T-44-100 will be better than Proto. Maybe more fun and slightly more consistent but its gun(which is better than Proto's) will just be quite bad instead of bad. The mobility is also better, but it's not a T-44 so the difference isn't that big. It still has average alpha and poor penetration that make the Proto bad against higher tiers. Meanwhile, the armor difference is HUGE. It will be a playable tank but I seriously doubt it will be a better choice than Proto, FCM or even T-34-3(with the virtue of preferential matchmaking). 

 

it will surely be.

gun from the initial stats, as far as i know, it's better than any other Russian med gun. 0.33 with 2,1 aimtime and -7 depression it's awesome, more accurate than the tX.

and i don't know in which world 175 is poor penetration, it's more than adequate at that tier and with a few gold you could make due against maus and similar, but 98% of the time, is fine on a med.

sure, it's not going to be as agile as the t44, but close from better terrain resistance (like they did with the rudy), and much more than the proto. also, armor is not that great, but it's not shabby either, it's exactly the same of the t44 and that works just fine most of the time. and again, on a med armor is not my main concern, gun & mobility comes first.

 

defintely a better choice than the proto, discussable against the t-34-3 due to pref MM (which does still helps a lot). FCM is already going away (replaced by some rubbish thing) so won't count for long.

 


Edited by Kill_Broccoli, 26 August 2015 - 11:30 AM.


GeorgeFromBush #45 Posted 26 August 2015 - 03:29 PM

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About that 175 penetration, on tier 8 players of soviet tanks get such is3 with 230 pen, that may be from where that feeling comes from, or the 269(?) on tier 10 soviet mediums, having definitely higher penetration power than other tanks there.

Kill_Broccoli #46 Posted 26 August 2015 - 04:02 PM

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View PostGeorgeFromBush, on 26 August 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

About that 175 penetration, on tier 8 players of soviet tanks get such is3 with 230 pen, that may be from where that feeling comes from, or the 269(?) on tier 10 soviet mediums, having definitely higher penetration power than other tanks there.

 

it comes from not being able to shoot properly. otherwise it's inexplicable how t54 is extremely op and popular having only 200pen (the lowest of the bunch) while other t9 run around with 270.

this "low pen issue" is really overrated.



Per_Saukko_EU #47 Posted 26 August 2015 - 06:33 PM

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View PostKill_Broccoli, on 26 August 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

View PostGeorgeFromBush, on 26 August 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

About that 175 penetration, on tier 8 players of soviet tanks get such is3 with 230 pen, that may be from where that feeling comes from, or the 269(?) on tier 10 soviet mediums, having definitely higher penetration power than other tanks there.

 

it comes from not being able to shoot properly. otherwise it's inexplicable how t54 is extremely op and popular having only 200pen (the lowest of the bunch) while other t9 run around with 270.

this "low pen issue" is really overrated.

 

T-54 is so good because even though 200 pen is bad, the gun is very reliable otherwise and it has a gold round with like 330 penetration which solves the penetration issues. The jump is HUGE. It isn't called HEAT-54 for fun.

 

That is hardly a fair comparison because T-44 does not have a 300 pen HEAT round to solve its penetration issues.


Edited by Per_Saukko_EU, 26 August 2015 - 06:33 PM.


Kill_Broccoli #48 Posted 26 August 2015 - 07:00 PM

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View PostPer_Saukko_EU, on 26 August 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

 

T-54 is so good because even though 200 pen is bad, the gun is very reliable otherwise and it has a gold round with like 330 penetration which solves the penetration issues. The jump is HUGE. It isn't called HEAT-54 for fun.

 

That is hardly a fair comparison because T-44 does not have a 300 pen HEAT round to solve its penetration issues.

 

it's the proper comparison. t44 gun is very reliable and works fine and with a 235 gold round available can solve it's "problem" too, it's plenty to make a hole on almost everything frontally. with good angle, it's enough to go through an e100 lower plate. again, the issue is not the penetration, is who shoot.

if you want another comparison, comet has a patetic 148 pen but still is largely recognized as one of the best meds available (i find it shitty but still..) and i haven't heard it being called "the gold comet".

 



Per_Saukko_EU #49 Posted 26 August 2015 - 07:28 PM

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View PostKill_Broccoli, on 26 August 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

View PostPer_Saukko_EU, on 26 August 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

 

T-54 is so good because even though 200 pen is bad, the gun is very reliable otherwise and it has a gold round with like 330 penetration which solves the penetration issues. The jump is HUGE. It isn't called HEAT-54 for fun.

 

That is hardly a fair comparison because T-44 does not have a 300 pen HEAT round to solve its penetration issues.

 

it's the proper comparison. t44 gun is very reliable and works fine and with a 235 gold round available can solve it's "problem" too, it's plenty to make a hole on almost everything frontally. with good angle, it's enough to go through an e100 lower plate. again, the issue is not the penetration, is who shoot.

if you want another comparison, comet has a patetic 148 pen but still is largely recognized as one of the best meds available (i find it shitty but still..) and i haven't heard it being called "the gold comet".

 

No it isn't a proper comparison. The thing that makes T-54 so good is that whatever tank it faces, it can frontally damage the enemy with no problem. 235 APCR compared to 330 HEAT is a huge difference. Much more than 1 tier. If T-44 had 300 pen HEAT round or 270 APCR round it would be comparable. 235 will practically never penetrate an E100 unless you get to shoot the sides. It won't even pen an E75 unless you hit the cupola which is pretty hard because E75 is much taller and autopens you for twice as much damage.

 

Actually 235 isn't even autopen against many mediums. You seem to think that saying "aim for weak spots" is an auto solution to taking down any enemy. You (naively) assume that your enemies are AFK and you have endless time to aim and every shot you take hits perfectly and penetrates while they ignore you. In reality, they will move, wiggle, use cover, angle, shoot back and often have support. You won't have time to wait for the aiming circle to get small and have to rely on snap shots. Then there is the RNG which ensures you will miss many correctly aimed shots. Even if you manage to hit and penetrate the enemy cupola after all this hassle, it's just 250 damage and hardly a large chunk of a higher tier tank's HP. But hey, just aim perfectly and all is good, right?

 

And just to correct you, any competent Comet driver carries lots of gold rounds because they realize that the AP struggles against many tanks they face.



word_698 #50 Posted 04 September 2015 - 11:35 PM

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Great tank to have.

____prophet____ #51 Posted 05 September 2015 - 01:45 PM

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A comment on 175 mm of penetration; having just finished the T-44 grind, I can say 175mm is a problem on a tier 8 medium. Yes, you will get games where you don't need APCR, but whenever you have to face heavy tanks own tier and above, your regular ammo will not cut it. Penning an IS3 frontally? Not physically possible. Heck, you can't even pen an E100's side if there is three degrees of angle on it!

 

The APCR is often needed even against medium tanks in tough positions. On tier 8 games the gun works, but above that it's very situational. Now of course, with better aim time and accuracy than an IS6 for example, you will do better with this 100-mm gun. But it's not correct to assume the AP and APCR penetration values are OK on it, which they are not. Can you still do well in these tanks? Of course you can. But in reality, you will bounce MANY shells against opposition with any real armor, and in my book it's a problem if you can only pen 40-50% of fully aimed shots targeted at known weak spots.


Edited by alisuorittaja, 05 September 2015 - 01:54 PM.


Saror #52 Posted 21 September 2015 - 05:49 PM

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View PostPer_Saukko_EU, on 26 August 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

 

No it isn't a proper comparison. The thing that makes T-54 so good is that whatever tank it faces, it can frontally damage the enemy with no problem. 235 APCR compared to 330 HEAT is a huge difference. Much more than 1 tier. If T-44 had 300 pen HEAT round or 270 APCR round it would be comparable. 235 will practically never penetrate an E100 unless you get to shoot the sides. It won't even pen an E75 unless you hit the cupola which is pretty hard because E75 is much taller and autopens you for twice as much damage.

 

Actually 235 isn't even autopen against many mediums. You seem to think that saying "aim for weak spots" is an auto solution to taking down any enemy. You (naively) assume that your enemies are AFK and you have endless time to aim and every shot you take hits perfectly and penetrates while they ignore you. In reality, they will move, wiggle, use cover, angle, shoot back and often have support. You won't have time to wait for the aiming circle to get small and have to rely on snap shots. Then there is the RNG which ensures you will miss many correctly aimed shots. Even if you manage to hit and penetrate the enemy cupola after all this hassle, it's just 250 damage and hardly a large chunk of a higher tier tank's HP. But hey, just aim perfectly and all is good, right?

 

And just to correct you, any competent Comet driver carries lots of gold rounds because they realize that the AP struggles against many tanks they face.

 

You keep going on and on about the gold ammo thing.. but if you ever played the t-54 you will know that the gold ammo is not what makes the t-54 a great tank, so yes.. the comparison is highly relevant. The t-54 has more mobility, but the proto is no worse off in its tier than the rest of the meds. Besides, why do you seem to assume that the forumites who read your posts are children without the ability to think for themselves??

 

 

 


Edited by Saror, 21 September 2015 - 05:55 PM.


tajj7 #53 Posted 25 September 2015 - 11:37 AM

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it's getting buffed. 

 

Block Quote

 - T-54 Prototype (premium): D-10TK accuracy buffed from 0,38 to 0,36, reload buffed from 8,1s to 8s, aimtime buffed from 2,6s to 2,4s

 

Brings it a lot closer to the T-44 with the LB-1.

 

0.36 to 0.35 accuracy and 2.4 to 2.3 second aim time, is only marginally worse. 

 

Plus they currently have the same DPM, so the T-54 proto will go to 1875 DPM to the T-44's 1852. 

 

All in all when you add in the fact that most will have a higher trained crew than the average T-44 will have that offsets the minor aim time accuracy differences. 

 

Becomes a pretty much straight up trade off between armour and extra mobility. 

 

it also means the T-54 proto will be a little more viable in a support sniper role in tier 10 games as you will be able to hit more with your APCR

 



Per_Saukko_EU #54 Posted 25 September 2015 - 10:09 PM

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I think the buff was... Not needed as much as welcome. It is nothing huge but probably balances the tank out against higher tiers. The main reason why I prefer Rudy over Proto is because Proto is so RNG based. The gun is horrible. When top tier, Proto is amazing. When mid tier, it's already declined a lot. When bottom tier, the tank is just completely useless.

 

This buff might make it slightly more reliable vs. higher tiers which is cool. The awful profitability probably influenced this decision. Then again it is weird that Proto is the buffed tank as its performs better than the other non-PMM mediums.

 

Wondering why STA-2 can't get its 200 pen, Panther 8.8 can't get -7 all around gun dep and CDC a minor terrain resistance buff if Proto gets this.


Edited by Per_Saukko_EU, 25 September 2015 - 10:10 PM.


DemolitionDmitrij #55 Posted 25 September 2015 - 11:31 PM

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Biggest question marks ever on this action by WG. Why would they buff a statisticly fine premium T8 med, while at the same time, not buffing a statisticly very poor performing vehicle?

 

And, of course, its a russian tank. Again this happens, its the same story with the blatantly overdone IS-3 buff. Why buff a fine vehicle that is by no doubts viewed as a worse (or even the worst) one, but leaving even weaker tanks even more behind? That really boggles my mind...

 

The T54 prot doesnt deserve any buff at this state of the game, as long as some other tanks lack that far behind eg. especially STA-2 and to some extend the Panther 88.

 

e:// Tried to fix your reputation Per_Saukko_EU, but someone negrepped you again.


Edited by DemolitionDmitrij, 25 September 2015 - 11:32 PM.


Eligible #56 Posted 25 September 2015 - 11:40 PM

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STA-2 already is buffed. And its a rly fine tank (at least for me) if u are using it properly, but its not forgiving due the no armor thingy. T54 proto is also very good, its almost a brawler, but i thought that they will buff speed, not these things. At the end, its a russian tank, what did u expect?

DemolitionDmitrij #57 Posted 26 September 2015 - 12:45 AM

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View PostEligible, on 25 September 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

STA-2 already is buffed.

 

If you think that its now anywhere near to the T54 proto, then we dont need to discuss the topic anymore.

Eligible #58 Posted 26 September 2015 - 12:00 PM

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View PostDemolitionDmitrij, on 26 September 2015 - 12:45 AM, said:

 

 

If you think that its now anywhere near to the T54 proto, then we dont need to discuss the topic anymore.

 

No, its not, due to "lets have russian HT in MT class with big cammo value to own everything". I own both tanks (bought T54p in May, and i got STA-2 for two weeks as a gift). For now, i need to say that i enjoy more in STA-2, probably because of its speed and gun depresion. Its silly to compare those 2 tanks because they are totally diferent worlds. I agree that for T54p buff wasnt needed (as much as i would like little more speed, but overall its a good prem tank capable to carry arround 60% of games ur playin), but STA-2 was buffed before and we cant expect buff for it again (at least in close future). Thats WG reality unfortunately.

tajj7 #59 Posted 29 September 2015 - 09:18 AM

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View PostDemolitionDmitrij, on 25 September 2015 - 10:31 PM, said:

Biggest question marks ever on this action by WG. Why would they buff a statisticly fine premium T8 med, while at the same time, not buffing a statisticly very poor performing vehicle?

 

And, of course, its a russian tank. Again this happens, its the same story with the blatantly overdone IS-3 buff. Why buff a fine vehicle that is by no doubts viewed as a worse (or even the worst) one, but leaving even weaker tanks even more behind? That really boggles my mind...

 

The T54 prot doesnt deserve any buff at this state of the game, as long as some other tanks lack that far behind eg. especially STA-2 and to some extend the Panther 88.

 

e:// Tried to fix your reputation Per_Saukko_EU, but someone negrepped you again.

 

They also buffed the IS7 remember as well. 

 

I think the T-54 protos statistical performance shows the value of armour on a mobile platform in the current meta, on VB it's even out performing some limited MM tanks for win rate which shows how strong it is. 

 

Though I don't think this buff will change a lot for the average user, it's nice for the more skilled users as the gun will behave a lot more, the DPM buff seems so minor it more seems like why bother. 

 

We should also remember the buffs are not necessarily finalised. But I agree the STA-2, the Panther 88 and the CDC could also do with a buff.

 

The STA-2 is a comfy tank IMO, I like it but generally the tier 8 premium mediums with regular MM should be a bit better but their main tree brethren are not that great anyway which is the main trouble, aside the 416, they are fairly weak on tier 8 compared to heavies like the IS3 and T32 and monster TDs like the Borsig, ISU and JP2. That is the issue I think, the STA-2 is better in several areas to the STA-1, as is the Panther 88 to the Panther 2 but those tanks are no that strong as it is.

 

For example how many tier 8 mediums do you see in tier 8 clan wars? The Pershing maybe? From the tier 8 meds to the tier 9 meds is a huge step up, Panther 2 to E50, T-44 to T-54, Pershing to Patton, etc. 

 

That is where the CDC, the T-54 proto and FCM 50T can do so well, they are different to their main tree counterparts, the T-54 proto trading armour for the T-44s mobility and the CDC having no real equivalent at tier 8 and the FCM having the auto-loading 50100 as it's main tree counterpart. It means these tanks can be good in their own way without being better than the main tree tanks. 

 

View PostDemolitionDmitrij, on 25 September 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

 

 

If you think that its now anywhere near to the T54 proto, then we dont need to discuss the topic anymore.

 

it's not but the STA-2 is under rated IMO. very good soft stats and some of the best gun handling on tier 8 mediums. 

 

 



pudelikael #60 Posted 11 October 2015 - 06:51 PM

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175 pen is an accident . do not buy this tank , only wasting money :)

 

 

The accuracy is poor, targeting too long, slow, and armor is weak because of all let you hit gold. t10 is not this machine rather than as something to do. it is a very mediocre tank

Edited by p6kk, 12 October 2015 - 12:13 PM.





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