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M18 Hellcat rebalancing idea

m18 hellcat nerf buff balance

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Poll: M18 Hellcat rebalance (24 members have cast votes)

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Brokkoli7 #1 Posted 31 May 2015 - 08:42 PM

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Hi all!

 

First of all, I've never created any topics on any forums before, so firgive me if I'm doing something wrong.

But the nerf that poor Hellcat recieved in an earlier patch just makes me crazy.

 

Although I agree that it needed a nerf - it was really op back then -, in my opinion wg has done it in a completely bad way.

Let me explain:

   It was too mobile, and had a really good gun, with good gun performance.

  So how did they nerf it?

  Like this:

   - It was one of the fastest (if not the fastest) tank in WWII    --- It can hardly reach 12 km/h backwards. Why?

   - It is a small, lightly armored td, every other td like this has excellent camo, right?  --- Well, hellcat had it as well (19), but now its worse than medium tanks in its tier (11).

 

   - It had a 90mm gun, and a turret, that the real thing never had.   --- Sure! Keep it!

 

 I think this would be a better soulution:

  - Keep the camo rating high, let it be a stealthy assasin.

  - Give it a lot more reverse top speed limit, like 20-25 km/h.

  - Remove the top turret and the 90mm gun, let the counterpart Jackson have it.

This way it would be much more realistic and balanced. The Jackson was always left behind, but in this case, it would have a better gun, and the Hellcat would be more mobile.

Just like the two TD lines in the Russian tech tree.

 

You might think that this way the Hellcat could be a light tank. You might as well would be right, but look at ELC AMX. It really is more like a TD than a light.

ELC is a TD with light tank matchmaking and good view range.

Hellcat would be a light tank with normal mm, but less manouverability and shorter view range. To keep it a TD, it should have good gun performance on the 76mm,

but should not be accurate on the move.

So you should use that mobility and stealth to get into the sides of your enemies in order to kill them with the 76mm.

 

So cmon guys, tell me what you think about this. :)



guest273 #2 Posted 31 May 2015 - 08:54 PM

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Would be good if hellcat would get buffed, not as OP as it used to be but also not such crap as it's nowadays. I can walk backwards faster than it can revere backwards...

boomboombaker #3 Posted 02 June 2015 - 12:35 AM

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I agree, they over nerfed it. I used to luv playing the m18 when it was OP :) - Nowdays it stays in the garage :( - surely there is a middle ground.

CountOfTuscany #4 Posted 02 June 2015 - 05:34 AM

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It might probably need a small buff, I don't think I've really played it after the nerf. Only got the M1A2 (no 90mm yet), but before the nerf it was already really powerful with that gun... A buff has to be made carefully though, I remember all to well when tier 6 was flooded by 3 different vehicles: KV-1s, Hellcat and Cromwell.

arnorwarrior #5 Posted 02 June 2015 - 01:37 PM

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First a couple of points:

View PostBrokkoli7, on 31 May 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

- It is a small, lightly armored td, every other td like this has excellent camo, right? --- Well, hellcat had it as well (19), but now its worse than medium tanks in its tier (11).

1. It didn't receive a camo nerf. All nerfs targeted mobility, dispersion and reload. It's still one of the best best camoed vehicle on tier 6.

Hellcat nerfs:

 

View PostBrokkoli7, on 31 May 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

   - It had a 90mm gun, and a turret, that the real thing never had. --- Sure! Keep it!

2. The 90mm gun and Jackson turret aren't unhistorical. The US army made two separate attempts to make a 90mm "Super-Hellcat". One tried to fit the 90mm in the Hellcat turret (and failed) and one mounted the entire M36 turret on the Hellcat hull (and succeeded). AFAIK, it wasn't accepted for two reasons: It wasn't ready before the war was over (and the M26 available) and it caused the light Hellcat to bounce back two feet with every shot, which was uncomfortable for the crew. Chieftain wrote an article on it some time ago:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/398728-90mm-gun-motor-carriage-m18/

 

 

But on-topic. I would love to see the historical Hellcat on tier 6. WG would need to:

- Remove the 90mm gun

- Remove the Jackson turret

- Increase top speed to 80 km/h

- Increase reverse speed to 20/25 km/h

- Increase traverse and turret traverse

 

It would make this tank very similar to the T67 one tier below. A fast, mobile and stealthy vehicle with nor armour and low alpha. Compared to the Jackson, it would be armed with a weaker gun and have no armour, yet much better speed and camo. Compared to the M4A3E8 - which it shares the gun with - it would be more stealthy and faster, yet incapable of firing on the move (the E8's speciality) and with no armour.

 

 

This would also have another benefit. Tier 7 is currently occupied by the unhistorical T25/2. This vehicle is a combination of the T25 medium's hull and a Jackson turret. While the two are compatible (almost all tier 5-9 US vehicles share the same turret ring diameter), this was never proposed as it would be useless. No point mounting a M36 turret when the T25 turret was better and available.

 

Tier 7 could be the historical "Super-Hellcat", featuring the current elite Hellcat with mobility buffs.

 

 

Problem is, this was WG's original plan and nobody knows why the instead made up the T25/2 and made a crippled Super-Hellcat. You can read about that here:

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/01/29/tanks-that-never-made-it/



H311fi5h #6 Posted 02 June 2015 - 01:45 PM

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I don't think this is the first time I hear about this idea. I like it. The 76mm Hellcat would be pretty much a Type 64 with regular matchmaking of course, but I guess that's fine. Maybe there is also some improved 76 mm or some improved ammo to make it a bit more competitive for a tank destroyer (if not there has to be a crazy mobility buff, making it more light tank than TD).

The tier 7 Super-Hellcat would be amazing fun though. Just imagine the old pre-nerf Hellcat with more hp and some minor buff on tier 7. You will spam a lot of gold ammo, but it will be fun as hell.



Obsessive_Compulsive #7 Posted 02 June 2015 - 02:01 PM

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thankfully all my 600+ games on it were pre nerf. It really was the tier 6 of wonders. Everyone moaned that the kv1s was OP but those with the skill could reap entire teams and carry tier 8 matches with the kitty. I wont play it in its current form it would be tanatamount to treason!

 

Why did they make it so slow in reverse... utter madness.



Brokkoli7 #8 Posted 02 June 2015 - 11:17 PM

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View Postarnorwarrior, on 02 June 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

First a couple of points:

1. It didn't receive a camo nerf. All nerfs targeted mobility, dispersion and reload. It's still one of the best best camoed vehicle on tier 6.

Hellcat nerfs:

 

2. The 90mm gun and Jackson turret aren't unhistorical. The US army made two separate attempts to make a 90mm "Super-Hellcat". One tried to fit the 90mm in the Hellcat turret (and failed) and one mounted the entire M36 turret on the Hellcat hull (and succeeded). AFAIK, it wasn't accepted for two reasons: It wasn't ready before the war was over (and the M26 available) and it caused the light Hellcat to bounce back two feet with every shot, which was uncomfortable for the crew. Chieftain wrote an article on it some time ago:

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/398728-90mm-gun-motor-carriage-m18/

 

 

But on-topic. I would love to see the historical Hellcat on tier 6. WG would need to:

- Remove the 90mm gun

- Remove the Jackson turret

- Increase top speed to 80 km/h

- Increase reverse speed to 20/25 km/h

- Increase traverse and turret traverse

 

It would make this tank very similar to the T67 one tier below. A fast, mobile and stealthy vehicle with nor armour and low alpha. Compared to the Jackson, it would be armed with a weaker gun and have no armour, yet much better speed and camo. Compared to the M4A3E8 - which it shares the gun with - it would be more stealthy and faster, yet incapable of firing on the move (the E8's speciality) and with no armour.

 

 

This would also have another benefit. Tier 7 is currently occupied by the unhistorical T25/2. This vehicle is a combination of the T25 medium's hull and a Jackson turret. While the two are compatible (almost all tier 5-9 US vehicles share the same turret ring diameter), this was never proposed as it would be useless. No point mounting a M36 turret when the T25 turret was better and available.

 

Tier 7 could be the historical "Super-Hellcat", featuring the current elite Hellcat with mobility buffs.

 

 

Problem is, this was WG's original plan and nobody knows why the instead made up the T25/2 and made a crippled Super-Hellcat. You can read about that here:

http://ftr.wot-news.com/2014/01/29/tanks-that-never-made-it/

 

The reason I think it got a camo nerf, is that I remember I used to be able to hide in places, where now I just cant, in some situations I feel like I'm not spotted, but I am, etc.

So I ckecked the camo rating on tank-compare.com, it sais 19. But that website stores mostly old data, there is no info on camo rating of new tanks like the Bulldog. So I downloaded XVM,

and it has a tooltip options section, and there you can set it to show different data on vehicles in your garage. There the camo value is 11, which is almost the half of the old one.

 

Otherwise, I completely agree with everything you have said. I also thought about the Hellcat being an even better T67 and it's a great idea to replace the T25/2 with the Super-Hellcat (which i didn't know of, thank you for the info).



anonym_DwdaZLbgSyYa #9 Posted 04 June 2015 - 07:50 AM

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Ok, why would u like to nerf the cat's gun? Considering the fact that has 0 armour and very very low mobility ( except the ok maximum speed ) and i mean the traverse and turret rotation speed, that 90mm gun is really by what hellcat excells in this game!!!! So in other words if u ruin it's gun performance u will ruin the entire tank!

what i suggest you is to think twice before making a pointless complaint about a "legend".

When i m really lucky to get maximum 6tier players, omg....i m invincible with that tank, a pure raper that fits perfectly to describe that tier6 td wonder!!!!

I personally went all the way to tier10 up to t110e4 and honestly the tanks i am really  proud of on that us td line is the t18 and m18 hellcat.

If atlest they would have left the t110e4 as before, with 850dmg and the buffs, i wouldn t even bother now to write this post/reply!!!

So wargaming, don t even try to nerf the best tanks in game just because someone has been caught in the middle of it s furious gun!

Anticipated thanks!!!

 

 

Trinity & Beyond

 



lord_chipmonk #10 Posted 04 June 2015 - 10:50 AM

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View PostTrinitySniper, on 04 June 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

Ok, why would u like to nerf the cat's gun? Considering the fact that has 0 armour and very very low mobility ( except the ok maximum speed ) and i mean the traverse and turret rotation speed, that 90mm gun is really by what hellcat excells in this game!!!! So in other words if u ruin it's gun performance u will ruin the entire tank!

what i suggest you is to think twice before making a pointless complaint about a "legend".

When i m really lucky to get maximum 6tier players, omg....i m invincible with that tank, a pure raper that fits perfectly to describe that tier6 td wonder!!!!

I personally went all the way to tier10 up to t110e4 and honestly the tanks i am really  proud of on that us td line is the t18 and m18 hellcat.

If atlest they would have left the t110e4 as before, with 850dmg and the buffs, i wouldn t even bother now to write this post/reply!!!

So wargaming, don t even try to nerf the best tanks in game just because someone has been caught in the middle of it s furious gun!

Anticipated thanks!!!

 

 

Trinity & Beyond

 

 

The OP isn't after a nerf, he's after a change that would make the Hellcat stand out at tier 6, be more historical and give it back its old mobility. 

H311fi5h #11 Posted 04 June 2015 - 12:23 PM

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View PostTrinitySniper, on 04 June 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

Ok, why would u like to nerf the cat's gun? Considering the fact that has 0 armour and very very low mobility ( except the ok maximum speed ) and i mean the traverse and turret rotation speed, that 90mm gun is really by what hellcat excells in this game!!!! So in other words if u ruin it's gun performance u will ruin the entire tank!

what i suggest you is to think twice before making a pointless complaint about a "legend".

When i m really lucky to get maximum 6tier players, omg....i m invincible with that tank, a pure raper that fits perfectly to describe that tier6 td wonder!!!!

I personally went all the way to tier10 up to t110e4 and honestly the tanks i am really  proud of on that us td line is the t18 and m18 hellcat.

If atlest they would have left the t110e4 as before, with 850dmg and the buffs, i wouldn t even bother now to write this post/reply!!!

So wargaming, don t even try to nerf the best tanks in game just because someone has been caught in the middle of it s furious gun!

Anticipated thanks!!!

 

 

Trinity & Beyond

 

 

The problem with the 90 mm gun on a fast turreted TD on tier 6 is that they have to nerf everything else into the ground to make it balanced. Giving the Hellcat a weaker gun (only in terms of alpha and penetration though, DPM, accuracy, aiming time and soft stats could be improved) would allow to buff the mobility and various soft stats back to the old level or better. The resulting tank would be comparable to the Type 64, and that is by no means a weak tank. But the 76 mm Hellcat would get better matchmaking.

As a second benefit, this would allow to move the 90 mm Hellcat up to tier 7, without all the mobility and soft stat nerfs, and with buffed hp and RoF, where it could replace the not very well liked T25/2.

 

In the end both, the tier 6 and the tier 7 Hellcat should be a lot more fun to play, while not being much better or worse in terms of balance.


Edited by H311fi5h, 04 June 2015 - 12:24 PM.


Enforcer1975 #12 Posted 04 June 2015 - 10:27 PM

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Just take the values of the Chinese Taiwanese Type 64 because that's how the Hellcat should have been to begin with. A nimble TD that uses it's speed to get in the flank of it's enemies and shoot them where they are the weakest.

 



Brokkoli7 #13 Posted 05 June 2015 - 02:12 AM

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View PostTrinitySniper, on 04 June 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

Ok, why would u like to nerf the cat's gun? Considering the fact that has 0 armour and very very low mobility ( except the ok maximum speed ) and i mean the traverse and turret rotation speed, that 90mm gun is really by what hellcat excells in this game!!!! So in other words if u ruin it's gun performance u will ruin the entire tank!

what i suggest you is to think twice before making a pointless complaint about a "legend".

When i m really lucky to get maximum 6tier players, omg....i m invincible with that tank, a pure raper that fits perfectly to describe that tier6 td wonder!!!!

I personally went all the way to tier10 up to t110e4 and honestly the tanks i am really  proud of on that us td line is the t18 and m18 hellcat.

If atlest they would have left the t110e4 as before, with 850dmg and the buffs, i wouldn t even bother now to write this post/reply!!!

So wargaming, don t even try to nerf the best tanks in game just because someone has been caught in the middle of it s furious gun!

Anticipated thanks!!!

 

 

Trinity & Beyond

 

 

You have completely misunderstood what I wrote. I didn't say nerf, I said rebalance. Under this I meant that give it a good performing 76mm instad of the bad 90mm, and give it better mobility. It would not be nerfed, it would be different.

Brokkoli7 #14 Posted 05 June 2015 - 02:13 AM

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View PostH311fi5h, on 04 June 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

 

The problem with the 90 mm gun on a fast turreted TD on tier 6 is that they have to nerf everything else into the ground to make it balanced. Giving the Hellcat a weaker gun (only in terms of alpha and penetration though, DPM, accuracy, aiming time and soft stats could be improved) would allow to buff the mobility and various soft stats back to the old level or better. The resulting tank would be comparable to the Type 64, and that is by no means a weak tank. But the 76 mm Hellcat would get better matchmaking.

As a second benefit, this would allow to move the 90 mm Hellcat up to tier 7, without all the mobility and soft stat nerfs, and with buffed hp and RoF, where it could replace the not very well liked T25/2.

 

In the end both, the tier 6 and the tier 7 Hellcat should be a lot more fun to play, while not being much better or worse in terms of balance.

 

Exactly!

kornicska #15 Posted 23 July 2015 - 11:09 PM

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All well and good, but they do not think that the bottom is a little sweet armor 12/12/12 tier6?
Tier 1 is def more Ltraktor
And if you take off the 90mm gun will be less damage and fewer earn money.
But the tower is noticeably reduced rotation and somewhat depressing. Because it is a lumbering heavy tank rotates faster.
But it is worse than the Tier 1 sectoral armor, which does not compensate for the movement speed.
For one shot higher than the Hellcat as a cardboard.
The TD is not spotter, not for him to 80km / h
Rather, it should better armor and punch-through, because often makes tier8 into battle.
So why should the TD and the TD, which is not capable of dielectric armor? And shot tier8 heavvy no damage penetration armor..
And the def 12/12/12 no fixed normal ballance? ok .. fixed + HP added...

Edited by kornicska, 23 July 2015 - 11:14 PM.


Grauwolf30 #16 Posted 24 July 2015 - 01:29 PM

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View PostBrokkoli7, on 31 May 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

- It had a 90mm gun, and a turret, that the real thing never had.

 



tajj7 #17 Posted 24 July 2015 - 01:54 PM

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Yeh the Super Hellcat was a real thing, though a prototype I believe it's much realer than a lot of tanks.

 

What's annoying is a tank that historically was so fast and nimble in real life is very sluggish in an arcade tank game.

 

I'd say get the old Hellcat back with it;s old mobility, give it's 76mm gun with APCR as standard ammo, say 210mm HEAT ammo or something, then have a tier 7 Hellcat with the 90mm gun again firing a higher pen round, like 200 pen or something, tier 7 HP and pretty much the same mobility. 

 

Still pretty good though the Hellcat for a tier 6, bought it back last night for TD-8 mission for T-55a, 4 times your HP in damage, did 3.7k damage in a tier 8 game, and we won by cap, only had 3 rounds left. 



Eila_Juutilainen #18 Posted 24 July 2015 - 01:58 PM

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IIRC the Super Hellcat was scheduled to be the tier 7 TD, but got shelved in favour of T25/2 because... reasons.

rocky23balboa #19 Posted 24 July 2015 - 07:17 PM

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Its a good idea..

Good luck my friend..

We will see next patches..

kornicska #20 Posted 25 July 2015 - 12:20 AM

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I love the Jo Hellcat.
But even if the speed of 12/12/12 armor is good to be taken out with one shot.
Especially tier8 party to pelt with less chance there is penetration shot.
And if I lose the 90mm gun it will hurt you just as well.
90mm gun if you have a good punch-through should be just right and lower right armor ..
12/12/12 For more armor, a Tier 1 tank also wounded.
The high-speed spotter must tanks.
Hellcat and TD, and not spotter.
The first to rush forward and cut from one shot does not make much sense.
Especially I have to disguise net, periscope and painting. Still motionless condition they see others like me sooner.
Because it sucks does the camouflage system. It is buggy as it is. As észleléses periscope system is buggy or not.






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