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UK crisis


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Poll: UK crisis (233 members have cast votes)

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Are the riots justified?

  1. Yes (37 votes [15.88%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.88%

  2. No (196 votes [84.12%])

    Percentage of vote: 84.12%

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ArmouredBin #41 Posted 09 August 2011 - 05:57 PM

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View PostWolfesblut, on 09 August 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

Wow, some of you apparently really like your totalitarian state...just an observation, by some of the posts here.

Is the riot justified? No. Riots are never justified.

Is the shooting of the man justified? No.
Both parties are at fault here. If they didn't shoot him, there wouldn't be a riot. You know, in civilized countries (:P), a policeman is trained to subdue a suspect without killing him.

Notice the underlined part? If he was posing what was deemed a danger to the armed officers, then YES it was justified

Considering that only a Very Small Proportionof police carry firearms, you can be sure that the discharge of the oficers weapon was Warrented

Dr_Nooooo #42 Posted 09 August 2011 - 06:08 PM

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Only a small proportion of policemen carry firearms in the UK? What is that, a complimentary ticket for criminals?

Green_Light #43 Posted 09 August 2011 - 06:34 PM

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Of course it's not justified and what has been happening the last few nights has nothing to do with a guy getting shot, it's simply criminal opportunists taking advantage to loot, pillage and destroy whatever they can get their hands on (from their own communities no less). Justice isn't on their agenda, only greed and the chance to get a free tv

Read them the riot act and send in the troops if you ask me.

Wolfesblut #44 Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:10 PM

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View Postmichaelvitman, on 09 August 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

If he was posing what was deemed a danger to the armed officers, then YES it was justified
Do you know if he was? Maybe he just wanted to pull a wallet out to identify himself, and they panicked. Or maybe he ran away, so they shot him, like the guy that tried to catch a train. Sounds unbelievable? It happened already, and it wouldn't be the first time that police officers try to cover incriminating evidence.

ArmouredBin #45 Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:15 PM

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View PostWolfesblut, on 09 August 2011 - 07:10 PM, said:

Do you know if he was? Maybe he just wanted to pull a wallet out to identify himself, and they panicked. Sounds unbelievable? It happened already, and it wouldn't be the first time that police officers try to cover incriminating evidence.
Don't know about your country, but here it's common knowledge that a cop is not afraid to beat you down, because he can get away with a lot.


Well a few points to clarify things.....

1) If someone has a gun aimed at you and tells you to not move, you DONT move!

2) Sadly, yes there are bad police officers all over the world. In the UK, if an Armed Responce Officer is involved in a shooting, they are suspended imediatley pending a FULL investigation by an independet organization.

3) in the UK police can get heavy handed, but you will find that those police are often caught and appropriate action taken against them.

Dr_Nooooo #46 Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:15 PM

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It is confirmed that he fired on a policeman with a pistol. The radio of the policeman saved his life, the bullet got stuck in it.

ArmouredBin #47 Posted 09 August 2011 - 07:23 PM

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View PostDr_Nooooo, on 09 August 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:

It is confirmed that he fired on a policeman with a pistol. The radio of the policeman saved his life, the bullet got stuck in it.

well the IPCC just stated that the gun had NOT been fired but he was still in position of a semi-automatic pistol

Wolfesblut #48 Posted 09 August 2011 - 08:27 PM

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@michael:
As you can see in the last posts, there is some confusion, and to be honest, I'm not that well informed. Maybe the police was right to shoot him, maybe they were not. I don't know, and I think it's too early to blame just one party.
Of course this doesn't approve the looting.

SchwerePanzer #49 Posted 09 August 2011 - 08:32 PM

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just send Breivik to London...

sparky2447 #50 Posted 09 August 2011 - 08:36 PM

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For everyone who believes that the military should be used do you really think that will help? By calling in the military the government is admitting defeat to a group of people who seem to have no real purpose in their life. If the met can't deal with it then something is seriously wrong. The fact that the man in Tottenham was shot is being used as an excuse to loot shops and destroy peoples lives. We wern't there at the time of the shooting so I don't believe that any of us can say that it was a justified killing or not but firearms officers are not hooligans who go around shooting people for no reason, they are highly trained in what they do and only use their weapons as a last resort.

ArmouredBin #51 Posted 09 August 2011 - 08:37 PM

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View PostWolfesblut, on 09 August 2011 - 08:27 PM, said:

@michael:
As you can see in the last posts, there is some confusion, and to be honest, I'm not that well informed. Maybe the police was right to shoot him, maybe they were not. I don't know, and I think it's too early to blame just one party.
Of course this doesn't approve the looting.


My post wasnt written as an offensive one m8 :)

Most (if not all) of this crap has nothing to do with the shooting too...... Just dumb inbred twats going on the rampage for nothing.

Aqnde #52 Posted 09 August 2011 - 08:46 PM

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It's just an excuse for rioting.

None of those anarchists give a flying f*ck about what happened.

sorscha #53 Posted 09 August 2011 - 08:50 PM

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for me both parties are to blame
first the guy shouldn't have a gun or semi automatic, (if he actually had one with him)
second the cops shouldn't kill the guy, they could easily shoot in his arm or leg instead.

And yes i know the riots ain't solving shit, and that most don't even know why it all started
here in Leeds they even have some small groups of looters atm. And i bed they got no fucking clue what's going on in London. they just think if they can do it there so can we over here.

And sending those scums to a foreign country to solve a war isn't a very good solution either.
We got enough problem in our own country, so why waste good money on them by wending them away?

Just make a chaingang and let them do some good  and proper service for the communities where they made the fucking mess( and not just for a few days, but straight for a year to start with)

SchwerePanzer #54 Posted 09 August 2011 - 09:01 PM

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View Postsorscha, on 09 August 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

...
second the cops shouldn't kill the guy, they could easily shoot in his arm or leg instead.
...

sorry but you nothing about this business. never been in a situation like this nor do you know a lot about shooting. warning shots or shots in the arms and legs might sound nice on paper or movies. when your live is threatened you shoot and since most people are in these situation the first time they aim for the mass and if lucky they hit. this was probalby not a SAS guy.

sorscha #55 Posted 09 August 2011 - 09:20 PM

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View PostSchwerePanzer, on 09 August 2011 - 09:01 PM, said:

sorry but you nothing about this business. never been in a situation like this nor do you know a lot about shooting. warning shots or shots in the arms and legs might sound nice on paper or movies. when your live is threatened you shoot and since most people are in these situation the first time they aim for the mass and if lucky they hit. this was probalby not a SAS guy.


Sorry to tell you but i know exactly what i'm talking about. And i know that warning shots are bullshit in such situations when you're in a life threatening situation. And yes for most of them (99%)it is their first time.

where i used to live before we had a kinda simular situation ages ago, and that was with an armed bloke that ran of on a motorbike, cop shot him in the back of his head. that cop was also for the first time in a situation like that.So don,t tell me that was a lucky hit.

Also cops, military and even armed security get trained to shoot to wound , not to kill.
But the biggest issue will always be, prove that the cop aimed for his arms or legs, and not any other body parts.

ArmouredBin #56 Posted 09 August 2011 - 09:28 PM

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View Postsorscha, on 09 August 2011 - 09:20 PM, said:

Sorry to tell you but i know exactly what i'm talking about. And i know that warning shots are bullshit in such situations when you're in a life threatening situation. And yes for most of them (99%)it is their first time.

where i used to live before we had a kinda simular situation ages ago, and that was with an armed bloke that ran of on a motorbike, cop shot him in the back of his head. that cop was also for the first time in a situation like that.So don,t tell me that was a lucky hit.

Also cops, military and even armed security get trained to shoot to wound , not to kill.
But the biggest issue will always be, prove that the cop aimed for his arms or legs, and not any other body parts.


well as an Ex infantry soldier ( i served in Iraq from 02/03/03 to 06/06/03) i can tell you i was trained to shoot centre of mass, as was every other infantry solder there. Also fighting in an enclosed area alows for minimal reaction time so no, a warning shot is not viable. If you are going to shoot, you aim to make sure he cant shoot back so you aim centre of mass in order to maximise the chance of a hit. If you fire a warning shot, you give him a slight chance to return fire.

As for the cop shooting someone in the back of the hear. As soon as he turned away from the cop (and didnt point his weapon at someone else) he was no longer an imediate threat to life and there for the shooting was ilegal imo.

Advocad #57 Posted 09 August 2011 - 09:51 PM

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Ok, I understand that a man has died, a father of 4, a loving husband and a God fearing man (that happened to have a handgun with him right when "plain clothes cops" surrounded him); but  lemme ask you this: Why doesn't police shoot at me? Why doesn't police shoot at you?


Most of the times, i hardly notice police patrols, wich is good: that means they are doing their job as they should.

So stop crying for a dead guy that had it coming, cose cops just DO NOT shoot at people out of the blue.

As I see it, they should give more rights to the police officers, including immunity from "racial discrimination" charges. The father of a work mate of mine is a PCO and in the last year he has been suspended 2 times pending investigations, for racial discrimination complaints ( from the black guys he was arresting of course ).. and his colleagues are in the same sittuation: every time they arrest a black guy, they get an abuse complaint.

It would be fun to see a complaint made by a white guy, arrested by a black copper. I would laugh my a** off :)

PzPionier #58 Posted 09 August 2011 - 11:02 PM

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Ok, lets think about it a second... Young people connected via twitter and facebook meet at night, running across the streets, attacking police, looting and robbing.
First i thought its another news about the lybian or syrian democracy movement, then i was told by the news they are just young british left-wing terrorists, asylants, drug addicts and robbers.

Will the EU send aircrafts to establish a "no-fly-zone" , to stop the british police from harming the democratic movement in the UK?
Will India and China pull back their ambassadors, because of the shameful police-violence against the british people on the streets?
Will France and the US bombard british police stations and the house of commons, to stop these atrocities against the british people?

A long quote i know, but one you might think about. Its from a UK webpage.

Quote

You start with a society in which material wealth is the only way to  get ahead. You follow with a culture in which fame and money dominate.  You bombard people with images of luxury goods that you tell them they  must have. You create a society in which the wealthiest 1% own 20% of  the country’s wealth whilst the least wealthy 50% own just 7%. You make  that gap wider. You tantalise and take away.You  remove educational allowances from the young. You put a higher  percentage of them out of work than at any time in the last century. You  tell them that they must sustain £30,000 of debt to go to college to  get a degree that isn’t even likely to get them a job.  You spend ten  billion on a sports event a few miles down the road that they cannot  afford to even attend. You talk of Olympic Dreams ™ as you close  their sports facilities. You cut local services and their parents’ jobs  to pay for the debts and disasters of your banks. You condemn their  lives through your economic ideology as you sit in your cabinet of  millionaires. You criminalise them for socialising in groups that you  say are ‘anti-social’. You stop and search them over and over and over  again and when they react you punish them. You turn one against another.  You individualise and marginalise and alienate them from their  neighbours. You talk of community but make it an illusion. You give no  hope.And  when they come out of the estates to which you confine them, to take  the goods they cannot afford, from the shops that won’t let them in, on  streets denied to them by the police who harass them, in defiance of the  politicians who condemn them, organised on social networks and media  from which you have made millions, filmed by your cameras for your  corrupt media companies for our consumption; when they do all this, all  you can say is: ‘This is sheer criminality’.

Im far from wanting to justify these riots, but im close to the young people and can understand their anger and despair.

Dr_Nooooo #59 Posted 09 August 2011 - 11:11 PM

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View PostPzPionier, on 09 August 2011 - 11:02 PM, said:

Ok, lets think about it a second... Young people connected via twitter and facebook meet at night, running across the streets, attacking police, looting and robbing.
First i thought its another news about the lybian or syrian democracy movement, then i was told by the news they are just young british left-wing terrorists, asylants, drug addicts and robbers.

Will the EU send aircrafts to establish a "no-fly-zone" , to stop the british police from harming the democratic movement in the UK?
Will India and China pull back their ambassadors, because of the shameful police-violence against the british people on the streets?
Will France and the US bombard british police stations and the house of commons, to stop these atrocities against the british people?

A long quote i know, but one you might think about.

I just heard that Libya officially recognises the London-looter-concil as the country's legitimate government and asked all diplomats belonging to David Cameron's goverment, which has lost its legitimation due to the inhuman attacks on the looters, to leave Libya.

ChewieJ #60 Posted 09 August 2011 - 11:14 PM

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Quote

The weapon being carried by Mark Duggan, the man whose death sparked the weekend's rioting, was a converted handgun capable of firing real ammunition

Hmm, as far as has been released in the media:

1) he was a known criminal, and was in the process of being arrested.

2) he was carrying what has now been identified as a replica/"dead" hand gun that had been converted to fire real ammo. No "normal" law abiding person would have such an item, on them, as they go about town.

I'm not saying he had it coming, but something aint right, and everything points to this fella not being the sort you'd want dating your daughter. Let alone fathering 4 kids with her.

carrying on.

as has been stated, its just a bunch of wankers who think they can get away with it, so they're doing it, using the mark duggan thing as a smoke screen.
I hope the police do start getting tough, and get all NI on their asses. These people need to learn that they do not have the right to ruin things for other people, by trashing their homes, livelihoods, property etc etc that they have worked hard for. 5 generations of a family, running a furniture store for 150 yrs, gone, why, because some dick thought it'd be a good idea to burn the place.

the police have their hands tied, because if they do go in and actually do something, some bugger is gonna scream brutality as high and loud as they can. And that's not what the government wants. Even though the people on the receiving end could do with it.
Personally, if your there and involved, take your beating when it comes to ya, cause you deserve it for the stuff you done.

Oh, last point, I am absolutely gob-smacked that some twats on this forum actually think its acceptable or somehow justified and have voted yes. Crap, it may get me a ban, but hey, you fuckers who voted yes its acceptable/justified, you need a damn good kicking too. I bet some of you may even have been there, or know someone who was......

That or your not from the UK and are just doing it to annoy those of us who are and have to see this every day at the moment.

Well, This whole thing has gotten out of hand, and hopefully it will be over soon, especially as its spreading around the country and being picked up by other scumbags to do shitty things.

In fact as i was going home from work today, cross town i saw a fire that had been started in an old abandoned nightclub. Coincidence? or just an Old building that had no power being supplied to it mystically catching fire........time will likely not tell.




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