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t54 vs e50... tier IX vs tier X


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magicalme #361 Posted 29 November 2011 - 01:29 PM

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If the T-54 is in a position where its gun depression makes it impossible to shoot, then it cannot be hit either due to the insane armor slope. That makes it the perfect scout on hill tops, like Malinovka. In a match yesterday on Malinovka, a Type 59 on the hill was scouting. It was shot at by 6 tanks (most tier 7 and 8, me in Löwe, highest penetration gun on tier 8) and tracked twice. It still had half health afterwards.

The E-50 is a huge tank with almost twice the size and almost twice the weight. It gets 100 or so more hitpoints (which is 6%). Now consider that all guns do more than 300 damage. E-50 dead in 6 shots, T-54 dead in 6 shots. What a game breaking advantage!

Another stupid argument that many people here use is: "you didn't play the tank, so you don't know anything about the tank". This is an argument ad hominem. It has nothing to do with the tank or its properties. You just try to insult me and my knowledge for the conclusion that everything I say is wrong. People fall back into that pattern when they run out of "real" arguments. I don't have the T-54 yet, but I played against the T-54 alot of times. I see what other players can do with the T-54 and what others do with the E-50 or the Patton. You are just upset that this is not beta anymore where Russian mediums roflstomped everything and that you cannot crush those helpless Panther 2 tanks.

And if you looked at my stats carefully, you might have notices my 62% win rate on the T-44. A tank with very similar body to the T-54 but virtually no armor, that gets ammo racked every other match (according to the forums), using a tier 6 gun with little penetration, no accuracy and unholy aiming time. It has to compete with Panther 2 and Pershing, which are both good tanks (and I achieve similar win rates on those too).

@Galm1: I already pointed out an example where a German lower damage gun has the same shell cost. Shell prices are not balanced by damage per cost. They are balanced by tier and penetration. And the T-54 is the only Russian tank with less damage than its German counterpart. If T-54 shell prices were reduced, they had to reduce the prices of 10 different German shells as well.

trispect #362 Posted 29 November 2011 - 01:34 PM

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View PostFootballFan, on 29 November 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

You penetrate T54 turret with 175 pen gun without problems ? Training room testing is bugged and it doesnt mean anything ? I ask again are you HIGH ? Game mechanics in training room works EXACTLY like in random battles there is no big conspiracy in it THAT IS A FACT, If I shoot T54 turret front from 100 and 200 meters with 0.28 accuracy/220 penetration gun and it bounces more than 2/3 of the shots you want to bullshit me you can do it more often with 175 penetration and 0.37 accuracy ?

Well this is true. When you are right next to T-54 and level with it 180 avg pen gun (f.e. Pershing long 90mm) penetrates the turret frontally everywhere else than gun mantle and mg-hatches.

When T-54 is even slightly higher than you are, lots of bounces occur from the turret. Also when the firing distance increases, it's harder to tell which angle the projectile hit the target because it flies with an arc.

But this is not valid for a long since in 0.7 T-54 gets major buff and bounces A LOT frontally!

mamlas #363 Posted 29 November 2011 - 02:27 PM

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View Postmagicalme, on 29 November 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

The E-50 is a huge tank with almost twice the size and almost twice the weight. It gets 100 or so more hitpoints (which is 6%). Now consider that all guns do more than 300 damage. E-50 dead in 6 shots, T-54 dead in 6 shots. What a game breaking advantage!

Oh god you are off there. Its 150 more hp, but thats minor.

E50, 390 avg dmg on 1650 HP of T-54.
5 shots max (even all minimal hits would kill on 5th)
4 if he gets lucky and gets avg of 412. Which is quite doable, taking into account its just 5% over avg.(if we take into account gaussian distribution, its what, 20% likelihood?)

T-54, 320 avg dmg on 1800 HP of E50.
7 shots if unlucky, 19% under avg.
6 shots common
5 shots, but you have to go 12,5% over avg.

The RoF helps, but sadly not enough. He will have loaded the 5th shell (sure kill) before i get the 6th (probable kill)

View Postmagicalme, on 29 November 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

Another stupid argument that many people here use is: "you didn't play the tank, so you don't know anything about the tank". This is an argument ad hominem. It has nothing to do with the tank or its properties. You just try to insult me and my knowledge for the conclusion that everything I say is wrong. People fall back into that pattern when they run out of "real" arguments.

Above is WHY we say that, ty for demonstrating. Is that "real argument" enough for you?

View Postmagicalme, on 29 November 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

And if you looked at my stats carefully, you might have notices my 62% win rate on the T-44. A tank with very similar body to the T-54.

Prepare to be surprised. But while i congratulate you on your gaming proves, it says nothing about how balanced or imbalanced tanks are, just says you are above average gamer/or the tank fits your playstyle. I know people that swear on M3 Lee...but i guess most would agree its not very good vehicle.

Its not that its a useless tank (like PII was in the day). It still has its uses in CWs - and experienced player will pwn with it. But it is inferior to E50 hands down, as is T-44 inferior to both Pershing and Panther II. And it has worst shell cost/punch ratio from all top guns in the whole game.

th3freakie #364 Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:17 AM

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I love this tank, but sometimes it drives me nuts. Especially the gun. 4 shots to kill a Chaffe? Missing a shot on a Tiger because your moving circle is the size of the sun? Being unable to brawl on slightly bumpy ground because the gun can't aim down? l0 damage penetrations on every 3rd shot? ARGH!  :angry:

Magitech #365 Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:51 AM

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View Postmamlas, on 29 November 2011 - 02:27 PM, said:

But it is inferior to E50 hands down

I just wanted to point this out: I dont own a E-50 right now i decided to research the engine over E-75 before i play it i also didnt play it on Test server and have no expirience in driving a T54.

So can you tell me in which way is T54 inferior to E-50?
Besides the obvious: Size - yes. Weight - yes. Mobility - i dont think so even if i have no clue. Armour - i penned both but i dont think there is much difference.
Actually iam sick (maybe sick is too harsh but i want something with better mobility) of the german wannabe meds you get when you start with Panthers but dont you agree that this tanks also should have something in what they are better?
So in what other point then 1vs1 is T-54 inferior to E-50? It seems that this is the only point the T54 drivers here complain about.

BRICE #366 Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:15 AM

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Do i usually lose 1v1 duels with t54?
No.
Why?
Because 90% of the people i meet driving t54 thinks its very smart doing the "dance of death", where i can just stand and traverse front to keep the best part of e50 in front.
And where i get free penetrations (if not the magical track bug monster eat my shots), the t54 player have a big problematic situation.
What are you saying?
Im saying when the 1/10 people i meet who actually are good players and users, i usually get hurt to 200-300hp left, and if i ding one shot im dead.

necrodeath #367 Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:52 AM

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View PostFootballFan, on 29 November 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Necrodeath everything for you is close range fightning or what ?
Yes, that is what i strive for with brawler tanks. Training room is unreliable, one game doesn't mean anything. Repeated games will show you the true value. If i hit all my shots from 550 meters with bl10 in one game (at least 6 from that distance), would that mean that bl10 will most of the time pull that off? No. Like i said, i quit about 2 patches ago, it might have changed slightly considering the lower hull penetration, which i stated a few times already but none has yet enlightened me about it nor really argued against it.

Body_Count #368 Posted 30 November 2011 - 04:41 AM

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View Postth3freakie, on 30 November 2011 - 12:17 AM, said:

Missing a shot on a Tiger because your moving circle is the size of the sun?

so true  :D

and I'm chasing t-50-2's with that  :o

mamlas #369 Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:29 AM

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View PostMagitech, on 30 November 2011 - 12:51 AM, said:

Actually iam sick (maybe sick is too harsh but i want something with better mobility) of the german wannabe meds you get when you start with Panthers but dont you agree that this tanks also should have something in what they are better?

Yes, its a wannabe heavy. But it fits its role perfectly. It has HP, it has armor and it has excellent gun. So it can very well do what ist meant to.

On T-54 subject.
You can scout, no arguing that.

You cant hold a spot vs anything T9 and up.
You cant brawl, gun is too weak for that.
You cant fight in rough terrain/down the hill, you have NO gun depression.(not bad one, you have none)
You cant fire on the move well, you gun misses like hell.
Your ability to hunt arty is limited, top arty pieces have so much camo, that they in fact can see you and hit you you before you can.(i have 100% camo crew). Also, if there are 2, you are screwed - your speed/acceleration is not enough to dodge.

future_shock #370 Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:14 PM

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View PostBRICE, on 30 November 2011 - 01:15 AM, said:

Do i usually lose 1v1 duels with t54?
No.
Why?
Because 90% of the people i meet driving t54 thinks its very smart doing the "dance of death", where i can just stand and traverse front to keep the best part of e50 in front.
And where i get free penetrations (if not the magical track bug monster eat my shots), the t54 player have a big problematic situation.
What are you saying?
Im saying when the 1/10 people i meet who actually are good players and users, i usually get hurt to 200-300hp left, and if i ding one shot im dead.

In fact you are probably the bad player here. When you stand and just traverse i would have eliminated you with my arty before you can do your 3rd shot. It always depends on the situation because you always have at least 2 enemies: The tank and arty. So the T54 was maybe thinking of arty while you did not and just stood there, knowing you dont need to do much to eliminate a T54.

You dont loose 1vs1 duels vs T54 just because you have the better tank. So easy it is.

th3freakie #371 Posted 30 November 2011 - 07:57 PM

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View PostBody_Count, on 30 November 2011 - 04:41 AM, said:

so true  :D

and I'm chasing t-50-2's with that  :o
Yeah - plus you do so little damage that they'll have time to kill all your arty and do a little victory dance, even if you hit all the shots (which you won't). Only realistic chance with that is to ra the bastards - that usually tracks them.

As for the 1vs1 argument, E50 will win in most normal situations, but then again, who says the 2 tanks are supposed to have an equal chance of winning? The game would be tremendously boring if all tanks were balanced 1vs1.

Arx205 #372 Posted 30 November 2011 - 08:08 PM

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Someone close this topic please.
It would be useless after some patches either way.

GiS_Feanor #373 Posted 02 December 2011 - 07:45 AM

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View Postmagicalme, on 29 November 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:


@Galm1: I already pointed out an example where a German lower damage gun has the same shell cost. Shell prices are not balanced by damage per cost. They are balanced by tier and penetration. And the T-54 is the only Russian tank with less damage than its German counterpart. If T-54 shell prices were reduced, they had to reduce the prices of 10 different German shells as well.

Then you would agree that the T-54 top gun should have better penetration than the german counterparts then? since that's the situation german vs soviet guns otherwise as you say. So when the D-54 has lower damage, lower penetration (1-4mm avg, but still lower), worse accuracy, worse aiming time, better rof, similar cost?? you would say that it needs a buff??

MotSchuetzeEK841 #374 Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:16 AM

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To me both tanks are okay. Either one has its advantages and disadvantages as pointed out above.
My point is that each one has to be driven a little different. City-maps with T54 and a headon with a heavy - no good idea. T54 lives off its ability to move quickly, so keep it moving, no sniping. E50 is a better sniper and can stand a couple of shots frontally, but moving around on an open field? Sometimes it works and sometimes you are dead.
Yesterday on Steppen I went into a E100 and a jagdtiger on the open left side coming from the north with my T54, accompanied by a Patton. Head on, no no good. I did 2 shots and turned around, going back. Our position in front was covered by a Jagdtiger and an ISU152.
So I decided to go trough the middle and look after the enemys arty (Hummel, M41, GW-Tiger). They were covered by a T25 AT, so no match. He was hit by me on the driveby, so was Hummel with the first shot. It then needed a second one. After that I parked my T54 beside a rock on the other side of the GW-Tiger, who was facing to me. Well arty-reload times are long but after like 40s he blew up. The M41 then was easy coming at full speed on him. The T25 AT was a sidehit inbetween that. Our team won.

So this was a typical match for the abilities of the T54. It could have been done with a Patton or E50 as well but maybe not that quickly.

Conclusion to me: Once you know what to do with your tank, you will be better off. Everything depends mostly on the driver and not on ROF, DMG/min, armour, sloping and all that crap. This is not unimportant but it is not everything. It needs to be looked at but the driver is the golden key!

You will see me driving all three of the tier 9 meds.

GL, Mot

future_shock #375 Posted 03 December 2011 - 03:11 PM

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View PostMotSchuetzeEK841, on 02 December 2011 - 09:16 AM, said:

So this was a typical match for the abilities of the T54. It could have been done with a Patton or E50 as well but maybe not that quickly.

It was a lucky match for you, no need to try to claim that would be the usual situation. The other team was probably just stupid enough to let you pass. In every tank you can have this lucky super-match, i had recently one in a M4 Sherman, where i killed Tiger 2 with derp-gun and some arties. But these matches are very rare in my opinion and you could go to every thread where a tank is discussed as bad, write about your amazing match in it and that it's not so bad tank blah blah.. But where is the point to write about a good match while in the other 70% you probably fail?

Body_Count #376 Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:18 PM

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View PostArx205, on 30 November 2011 - 08:08 PM, said:

Someone close this topic please.
It would be useless after some patches either way.

no no... we'll keep the whining going on after the patch too, so we get more buffs  :Smile-izmena:

:D

Lobo #377 Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:38 PM

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View Posttrispect, on 17 August 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

+1 to OP

Agree most of the stuff but the E-50. It's so slow that it isn't much of a problem if you play it smart.

And other thing. There are other good scout maps than Malinovka.=)

EDIT:
Patton = Medium tank
T-54 = Scout
E-50 = Quick heavy tank

EDIT2: Medium-stats vs. Scout-stats

http://img831.images...pattonstats.jpg

How much free exp you used on Patton to bring it to top configuration in no time ?

How many battle you had with T54 before you got top ?

Loofah #378 Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:40 PM

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View PostBody_Count, on 05 December 2011 - 03:18 PM, said:

no no... we'll keep the whining going on after the patch too, so we get more buffs  :Smile-izmena:

:D

BTW, since you have T54, how does sidehugging works against Maus and E100? Or even E50, E75, King Tiger, Panther II, T34 and so on. They can only hit your turret, and you are low enough to blast their hull, right? And you can move back and forth to deny them any chances of hitting.
I wonder, does it work in game? I had a T54 side-hugging my E100 on the test server, but I was lucky enough to hit his hatch with 150mm projectile and took him out. But If I didn't have that luck...

TeDe #379 Posted 05 December 2011 - 07:11 PM

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Hello- i need tip i think, i seldom can get E-50 or Patton in dogfights all other wehicles goes pretty mutch ok (ex. T30/maus),
dont understand how you get ex. 56% wins in T54 i play late maby thats the thing- seems mutch harder to win late at night ore? What is reason
for that? How do you kill the E-50 , tracking? I get killed by 4-5 shots (if not noobish) all the time? Terje

mamlas #380 Posted 05 December 2011 - 09:04 PM

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View PostTeDe, on 05 December 2011 - 07:11 PM, said:

Hello- i need tip i think, i seldom can get E-50 or Patton in dogfights all other wehicles goes pretty mutch ok (ex. T30/maus),
dont understand how you get ex. 56% wins in T54 i play late maby thats the thing- seems mutch harder to win late at night ore? What is reason
for that? How do you kill the E-50 , tracking? I get killed by 4-5 shots (if not noobish) all the time? Terje

You don't fight. Period. You hit em, and then run like a sissy to your bigger friends to kill them.

Also, what in patch helps us? Buff for sloped armor - that means E50 goes from insanely hard to beat to impossible.

Side hugging is a no-no. Any smart driver will start to turn...which effectively creates a gap between you and the Maus...and that means you hatch gets it.




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