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M60A1 & 2nd American Medium Branch EU Beach Head HQ (Initial)


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Ck16 #1 Posted 12 September 2015 - 07:46 PM

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Support the M60A1 & T95E9 for Tier X - 2016!

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Welcome to the EU beach head and HQ for the campaign to rework and add the 2nd American medium line! The goal here? To gather enough support that WG would strongly consider adding the M60A1 at tier X and reworking the current tree to make it more historically accurate and closer in balance to the other medium tree's! The next goal that would go along with this is adding in the 2nd medium branch already! Specifically we will be focusing on tier VI and up.

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The past few days there has been discussion in General chat and I did conduct a survey of sorts just to see if there is support/interest among the community for something to be done. The answer was yes with a decent amount of support.

 

American Med Survey(NA)

M60A1 poll(NA)

 

Articles covering the subject more in depth!

-Red, White, Black and Blue, Part 1: The Patton’s Plight!

-Red, White, Black and Blue, Part 2: In Search of the Game Changer

-Red, White, Black and Blue, Part 3: The Contenders

 

SO with out further delay this is a campaign HQ for EU support material post here and anything to spread the word

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M60A1 and T95E9 2016!

 

I am here to discuss such things as try to gain support here for the US Medium tree or possible trees to be reworked or added to make them more competitive with the current Med's in the game. The M48A1 is an ok tank but with the power creep of new tanks that have been added since the release of the M48 years ago. The American tree is in a state of being idle for most many don't want it and new players are steered away cause the tanks can be challenging at time and by no means are as easy of a grind as the Russian Heavies are. Now I am not here to compare apples to oranges with Heavies and Mediums I am here for Mediums to Medium Comparison how the M48 stacks up with a few of its counter parts just by a simple yet very important "stat"....Year it entered service. 

 

M48 Patton - 1953 (Entered Service)

T-62 - 1961 (Entered Service)

Leopard 1- 1965 (Production started)

STB-1 - 1970

Centurion Action X- 1955 (Program started)

AMX-30B -1966 (First production vehicle finished)

Chieftain - 1966 (Enter Service)


Option 1: Complete Overhaul and T95E9 Tree!

 

Here I will try to state a logical argument for something to be done with the M48A1 being replaced....Yes the beloved Fatton to be replaced and moved down to tier IX where I feel it fits better. I know what you guys are thinking now. "But OP what will be lost!" Well...the easy but sad choice would be to remove the T20 (for now will bring that back up later). Courtesy of Legiondude who had a great idea for a rework of the Current tree. The great part about this would be no paper tanks or prototype tanks would be in this tree alone!

 

Tier 7 M26: 76mm M1A2, 90mm M3, maybe a slow firing 90mm T15 for teching into the T32

Tier 8 M46: 90mm M3, 90mm M3 Late(185-ish standard), 90mm M36(219/275/45)

Tier 9 M48: 90mm M41(219/275/45), 105mm M68

Tier 10: M60A1: 105mm M68

 

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Yes the M60 specifically the M60A1 that entered service in 1963, With the latest additions to the game and changes and further flexing of the time line it is well with in a balanced time frame. Now I get what you guys might being saying well we have the M60 already from CW....You are right and they can still keep their M60 as it is! The M60A1 would offer a new "slim" turret with better frontal armor giving the tank great hull down properties (besides the tumor on top). would keep its good gun depression and with a better turret lay out a better ROF meaning a better DPM that the USA med's could use to be competitive with the current Medium Meta. Plus the M60 was designed to be the counter part to the T-62 while the M48 was deemed out classed a few years after it entered service, the 90mm was not even enough for the T-54/55 but still non the less its counter part being in service at the same time. 

 

Just for comparison for some who want to know what I am talking about between the M60 and M60A1

 

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The reasons for the reconfiguration as stated by Legiondude are as follow:

View PostLegiondude, on Sep 11 2015 - 22:55, said:

That half of the proposal is actually quoted from me(as is the gun listing prior), it's a mix of several objectives:

1. Having The M26 represent WWII era iterations

2. Supporting the existence of the M46E1 in the tree

3. Having a connection between the M26 and M48 that isn't a sudden jump, while....

4. Retaining the M47 for future use elsewhere, either in the US tree or in a foreign tech tree(i.e. Italy)

 

As well as 

View PostLegiondude, on Sep 08 2015 - 20:04, said:

Well that's the point of the down tiering proposal and rebalancing the Patton's guns. So not only would you have a gun with better pen at tier 8, but you'd enter the tier 9 grind with that same gun better than the current situation and grind to an even more powerful 105mm

 

That is just a few arguments, I know there are a lot of people who like thier T-20, M26, and M46 in game they are good but for a compettive tier X medium for the American tree things need to be changed, the M48 as stated above is out classed in many ways.

 

Now with the M60A1 and the rework the 2nd tree should be added as well. This tree would bring incarnations of tanks that were taken out of the orginall tree (T20 and top M46 configuaration). I have a feeling this tree would be more about better mobility and bigger guns, well at end tier with the 120mm T123 on the T95E9

 

Tier 6: T20

Tier 7: T25

Tier 8: T42

Tier 9: T95E3/E7

Tier 10: T95E9

 

The T-42 would be a bit more agile and faster then the M46 with the addition of the slim turret as well and a better 90mm selection for tier VIII

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The T95E3/E7 would be a great tier IX the end configuartion of either or mixing the two together for turret upgrade ect. 

 -T95E3 – Turret from the T54E2, 105mm T140 rifled gun

 -T95E7 – A T95E1 with a 105mm T254

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T95E9 would be just like the T95E6 but different engine so really almost identical but CW would get their special tank and name still.

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Here is another good quote the other threads. Just to put it in perspective a bit.

 

View PostPahech, on Sep 07 2015 - 10:41, said:

The US line had nothing new added to it since the light tanks (which Germany/USSR, the other 2 main trees, also received), and before that...the T57 line, in patch 8.2.  During that period between now and patch 8.2, the USSR received the 263 line (4 TDs) and the 430 lines (8 mediums/lights, including the T60-80), the light line (3 tanks), 2 arty from the arty change and a whole slew of premiums and reward tanks that I lose track of, the Germans got the Waffle line (6 TDs) and the Leopard 1 (3 tanks) lines, 2 light tanks, 4 arty from the arty change, various random additions in lower tiers, some premiums and reward tanks.  The British got the 183 (11 TDs) and the 4005 lines (11 tanks) , the Conq GC line (10 SPGs), the French the AMX 30 (6 tanks with 4 lower tier ones), 2 SPGs from the arty change, and some prems, Chinese got all their tanks sans type 62 and 59(18 regular tanks and 3 premiums), and the Japanese got all their tanks (23 regular tanks + 4 prem/reward).  The Czechs will have their tanks soon enough too, getting 10 tanks+1 premium.  Since patch 8.2, I think the US got a total of 3 light tanks, 2 arty, and some reward tanks (M60, T23E3, T28C, T7 Combat car), and 1 premium tank in the fury.  That's it.  For a "main" tech tree, that's ludicrously bad.  Patch 8.2 is at the end of 2012, early 2013.  That's almost 3 years ago!  5 bloody regular line US tanks, in 3 bloody years, with nothing in sight.

 

The Idea here guys is start conversation about the current depressing state of the American medium tanks. For a tree that is one of the three original and I feel big trees compared to the other trees this one lacks the most.

 

Thanks for reading guys hope we can get contributions here to add constructive reasons why such an over haul is needed :D


 

Option 2: Slight Rework

This one may be unpopular with some players at first but bear with me here for a sec before you freak out.

-Remove the M46 Patton to a tier 8 premium to replace the Super Pershing in the shop (The Super P will be taken out of the shop some point due to preferred match making and needs a replacement) 

-Bump down the M48 Patton

- M60A1 as new tier X medium. 

 

 

M46E1 Patton: tier VIII American Premium Medium tank

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Hit Points: 1450

       Gun: 90mm T119E1(219/275/45) VIII 

 Turret: M46E1 (101/63/76) IX

                   Engine: Continental AV-1790-5 (810 hp) IX

  Tracks: T80E1/E4 (38 deg/sec) VIII

Radio: SCR 528 (745m) X

 

Now with the M48 bumping down to tier 9 now there would need to be a slight rework and added 

 

M48A1 Patton: tier IX American Medium Tank

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Hit Points: 1700

             Gun(s) :   90mm M41 (219/275/45)VIII

                             105mm M68 (268/330/53) X

Turret(s): M48(177/76/50) VIII

                         M48A3 Turret upgrades IX

                            Engine(s):Continental AV-1790-5B (810 HP) VIII

                                        Continental AV-1790-6 (810 HP) IX

Track: T97 (40 deg/sec)

               T97E2 (45 deg/sec)

     Radio: AN/GRC-3 (410m) VI

              AN/VRC-7 (745m) X 

 

M60A1: tier X American Medium tank

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(Player created skins for M60/M48 not real WG material)

 

Gun: M68 (268/330/105) X

   Turret: M60A1 (250/76/51) X

                             Engine: Continental AVDS-1790-2 (750 hp) X

Track: T97E3 (50 deg/sec) X

  Radio: AN/VRC-12 (745m) X

 

What does this option do? Well it will give the American tree a competitive medium at tier X with the M60A1. Rebalance the M48 to allow it to perform better in its tier. As well as create a Premium that would sell probably better then the Super P being that they will need a replacement to be sold in the shop anyway at some point. As well as depending on how WG handles the FV4202 swap and free premium tank a similar thing could be done for people who already have the tank.

 

Like- The player must have the M46 (or M48A1) unlocked and owned when the patch hits. Then they are given a mission to do X amount of different objectives or something, being semi-difficult and time consuming, given a month or so to achieve them all, once completed a free M46E1 Patton premium in their garage to play and now train the M60A1 crew on :D


 

Option 3: Mini Branch to M60A1!

 

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Tier VIII: T42 Medium tank

 

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The  T42 would have about 2 modules in each category maybe a 3rd radio to allow more grinding to do. Other wise information is available out there and the hull is currently in game. The T69 was based off the T42 hull!

 

Tier IX: XM60 medium tank

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XM60 as a tier 9 - M48A2 turret for the stock turret, with the 90mm T42 stock gun (current stock gun on the M48 right now!). Then upgrades to the T95E6 turret THEN to the 105mm T254 and 105mm M68 so 2 upgrades for the gun. Would need to get turret before guns to prevent a M60(A0) reincarnation at tier 9. Other upgrades will be added as information is found, a few engines I believe were tested along with maybe an upgraded T97 track thrown on.

 

(from Hunnitcutt Patton Pg. 153 -154)

(T95E6 turret reference pg. 156)

 

There is the option to do a T54E2  instead of the XM60 and have, stock turret would be the T54E2 turret then unlock of the XM66 D turret along with the same guns as mentioned above but now adding in the 152mm derp gun.. Or XM66 D turret have the be the stock turret on the XM60 (though unhistorical) 

 

 

Tier X: M60A1 medium tank

 

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Option 4: Filling in the gap

 

Tier IV: T6 Medium tank

  •   An alternative to the M3 Lee to go to the M4 Sherman as both would lead to the M4 though.

 

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Guns

  • 37mm M6
  • 75mm M2
  • British 6 Pounder (Planned & possible)

Turrets

  • T6 w/cupola turret
  • T6 final design.

Engines

  • Wright R975 EC2
  • Wright G100 (Room for later on)
  • Wright G200 (Room for later on)

Radios

  • SCR 506
  • SCR 508
  • SCR 245

Tracks

  • VVSS T42
  • VVSS T48

 

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Tier VII: T23 Medium tank

  • Yes the T23 that was removed now as a tier 7 nerfed slightly from its tier 8 days and reworked to fill the roll of a tier 7!

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Guns

  • 76mm M1A1
  • 76mm M1A2
  • 90mm M3 (possible)

Turrets

  • T23
  • T23E4
  • T25 (possible)

Engines

  • Ford GAA (possible stock)
  • Ford GAN

Radios

  • SCR 508
  • SCR 528

Tracks

  • VVSS
  • HVSS

 

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(T23E4 w/ HVSS)

 

Tier VIII: T42 Medium tank

  • Alternative to the Pershing could also lead to the M46 with the turret being that last for the M46. Other that keeps going down the new branch.

 

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Gun

  • 90mm M3 Late
  • 90mm T119
  • 90mm T119E1

Turret

  • T42 (concept)
  • T42

Engine

  • Wight R-975C4
  • Continental AOS-895-3
  • Continental AOSI-895-5

Tracks

  • T84E1
  • T95

Radio

  • AN/GRC-3
  • AN/GRC-8

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Tier IX: T54E2 Medium tank

  • T54E2 pretty basic.

 

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Gun

  • 90mm M41 (Possible stock)
  • 105mmT140E3

Turret

  • T54E2

Engine

  • Continental AV-1790-1
  • Continental AV-1790-5B

Tracks

  • T96
  • T97

Radio

  • AN/GRC-3
  • AN/GRC-8

 

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(T54E2)

 

 

Tier X: M60A1 medium tank

  • Once again the big bad kid for the US that should be all matters in the game to fit with other 1960's MBT like tanks.

 

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Gun

  • 105mm  M68

Turret

  • M60A1

Engine

  • Continental AVDS-1790-2

Track

  • T97E3

Radio

  • AN/VRC-12

 

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So the End result would be starting at tier 4

 

T6 > M4 Sherman > M4A3E2 > T23 > T42 > T54E2 > M60A1

 

Graphic will come later

 

Thank you

  -Ck16

 

 

 

Grab your support banners!

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(thanks also goes to Legiondude and Life_in_Black on the NA forums many of the structures and reasons were brought up and refined by them)

 

(This is related but not entirely related to the poll)

 


Edited by Ck16, 27 November 2015 - 04:07 AM.


SastusBulbas #2 Posted 12 September 2015 - 07:55 PM

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http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Tank:M60

 

http://ftr.wot-news....0-medium-t95e6/



Ck16 #3 Posted 12 September 2015 - 08:15 PM

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View PostSastusBulbas, on 12 September 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

 

That is not the M60A1 or T95E9. I got to ask did you read what I have up top or just saw the title and thought it was another "gimme M60" and "unfair T95E6 CW reward!?!?" threads. This is something far more then those. They can keep them as CW only for those two. This is for more for the tree that benefits all. 

Ck16 #4 Posted 13 September 2015 - 06:51 AM

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Did I just post this thing in the wrong section or that no one cares? xD 

Volatile_Squirrel #5 Posted 28 September 2015 - 09:15 AM

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But I actually like my old fat "bucket of bolts".

KillSlim #6 Posted 29 September 2015 - 10:17 AM

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View PostCk16, on 13 September 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

Did I just post this thing in the wrong section or that no one cares? xD 

 

It's just not going to happen, is all. 

Yosef1 #7 Posted 07 October 2015 - 03:26 PM

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By the love of god please stop with those tumors.....

koaluche #8 Posted 08 October 2015 - 04:25 PM

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It would be great if it could happen

Krasnoarmeyets #9 Posted 22 November 2015 - 10:33 PM

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+1

U have my support,good luck with this project:honoring:



Fozters #10 Posted 28 December 2015 - 02:36 PM

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I don't have any opinion about the branches other than more is better. Soviets do have 3 tier X meds and Murica has only 1 which by majoritys opinions is underwhelming tank in it's tier. Even the French have 2 tier X meds.. Even the French have 2 tier X meds.. Even.. Yeah I think everybody got the point :teethhappy:. And if I may be even more sarcastic, isn't the French line famous been so much without love because it's lacking playerbase or something other blah blah ... Atleast WOT cannot be accused of being US favourable just like Hollywood movies or so many games through history where you are automatically playing on US side (good guys) agaist terrorists/china/soviets/russia/vietcong etc :D Jokes aside, the major point in my opinion is that there has been 2 superpowers after ww2 with so huge scale cold war arms race that one of the reasons of the other one collapsing was the arms race. And another one of these nations has 3 tier X meds other has 1, enough said.

 

I just got m46 and by peoples opinions and couple of tries in the test server I don't really know if I do even want to go tier X so yes I think Murica meds needs some love too. And my opinions are based on the love of medium tanks and no other political etc reasons related..

 

ps. I really wonder there has not been more love for this thread in the EU forum and because the polls are at NA one I maybe have to create NA account just to vote. Why not create same kind of poll here too, maybe people would be more active on a poll?

 

e. seems like the m48 got a reasonable buff in latest patch, so it got some needed love and migth not anymore be as underwhelming as it used to be and for which I referred in my original post. Anyways for those tumours :teethhappy:, why couldn't wg implement same kind of buff for tumor as t110e5 at the moment has, they are soft hulled tanks anyways so it would give them a reasonable competitiviness in my opinion.


Edited by Fozters, 30 December 2015 - 11:33 AM.





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