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Project "Black Gold": The Lion’s Mane.

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[mightyjosHi]

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 2.1.4. Enclaves are relocated five days after Stage 2 begins, after all Prime Times end on the fifth day of Stage 2.

 

Since the Stage was changed from 10 to 8 days, is the fifth day still correct (4th day would be more fitting)?

[Finnyan]

mightyjosHi, on 27 November 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

Since the Stage was changed from 10 to 8 days, is the fifth day still correct (4th day would be more fitting)?

 

Currently yes but I'll ask if it's possible, your suggestion is indeed more suitable.

[RaeudigerRonny]

Landings are enabled, while being on the map. Does that also count for Auctions?

[Finnyan]

Domstadtkerl, on 27 November 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

Landings are enabled, while being on the map. Does that also count for Auctions?

 

Yes (like Safari).

[indu]

What about peanltys from stage1. Any reset ?

Found allread. Penaltys will be reset every 7 days.

Edited by indu, 27 November 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[knightM]

As to the rules:

 

The single biggest issue I have with stage 1 comes again and will be just as pronounced.

 

Auctions  

With just 1/4 of provinces as landings (+ convoys) bidding and landing anywhere is an advantage.

This is completely contrary to all up to now established rules of campaigns, where campaign was "separated" from the other mods and even from CW. So that all clans had basically the same starting point and above all so that only performance in CW during the campaign decided the result . 

(note that equal starting point for big, small and new clans alike was why freezing is disabled during campaigns)

 

This unannounced and unexpected change is changing the starting point for all clans and it also "forces" clans to play skirmishes during the campaign. 

- Clans who did not have tons of influence from before don't like it (why collect tons of influence if you don't need it... ooops suddenly you need it for campaign)

- "New" and small clans who want to play CW have a big disadvantage and end up on overcrowded landings which are very hard to win.

 

Specially the second point is a big issue as it further enhances the "WG makes campaigns for big clans" feeling. Some smaller clans are getting so desperate that they are bidding 2000-5000 influence vs clans they have no chance of beating in the battle with owner just so they avoid 7+ fights on overcrowded landings.

 

During safari this issue was non-existent as all provinces were landings anyway. Numerous clans have complained that playing safari needed too much activity and was exhausting even for 10 days.

So what did WG do? Use the same model for at least 2 stages of a campaign but only made it available for clans that spam influence . Not a good decision.

 

Specifically in this second stage the following issue comes up:

 

If enclaves appear on the very first day (before fighting) clans that bid tons of influence can basically capture whole enclaves on first day without firing a single shot.

 

Provided you gathered enough influence (>>>100k) you can capture all enclaves (and maybe even all convoys) except the 1/4 that have landings on the very first day and be done with stage 2, immediately winning it without winning a single fight. Yes this is only theoretically possible but it does illustrate the point.

 

EDIT: There is actually one more new thing here. Up to now during all campaigns/events except 1st the first day all provinces were landings, now it's 1/4 even on first days which is why the bids are such an issue.

 

Edited by knightM, 28 November 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[mightyjosHi]

 

I agree with most of what knightM said. From what i understand, the second phase will be a massive Influence Spam.

If you loose the bids, you only have landings left. Beeing on the map does not bring any rewards if you aren´t close to enclaves or (by luck) to convoys.

 

Even the battles bring around the same famepoints (350/70 for a win on map/landing). For clans with mediocre activity it will be nearly impossible to get good amount of famepoints even if they have good players.

 

[Dotalizer]

Hello,

Decept1on, can you tell us how many times you can get bonus points from same convoy? in previous campaign you were able to get bonus points only once. How it will be this time?

Also i guess to earn bonus from enclave you have to hold whole enclave to get bonus?

 

About 1st day

I agree with KnightM, that first day will be horrible. Auctions on Enclaves should be blocked, and only way to get them should be only by fight.

 

cheers

Dotalizer

[Hooshee]

Dotalizer, on 28 November 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Hello,

Decept1on, can you tell us how many times you can get bonus points from same convoy? in previous campaign you were able to get bonus points only once. How it will be this time?

Also i guess to earn bonus from enclave you have to hold whole enclave to get bonus?

 

About 1st day

I agree with KnightM, that first day will be horrible. Auctions on Enclaves should be blocked, and only way to get them should be only by fight.

 

cheers

Dotalizer

 

Absolutely agree. Enclaves should be always landing, or forbidden to bid on.

[HadurHun]

Again history repeats itself and I don't get my obj 907 for this [edited]YOU WG, [edited]YOU!!!

[TheDutchMen]

Off topic

 

if someone fight's the minimum of 15battles for the right of a reward tank but his clan doesn't get into the top 50, does he get a tank if he joins a clan who I in the top50 even if it's on the last day's of the campaign?

 

​couldn't find it I the rules and was queries if clans can switch in players to get them tanks if the have inactive members who did not compete in the campaign.

[bondyros]

TheDutchMen, on 29 November 2015 - 12:25 AM, said:

Off topic

 

if someone fight's the minimum of 15battles for the right of a reward tank but his clan doesn't get into the top 50, does he get a tank if he joins a clan who I in the top50 even if it's on the last day's of the campaign?

 

​couldn't find it I the rules and was queries if clans can switch in players to get them tanks if the have inactive members who did not compete in the campaign.

 

3.9. You must have played at least 15 battles for your clan during the Campaign to be eligible to receive a license for a prize tank.

 

No ... he won't have it. He would have to play 15 battles in new clan (top 50).

 

 

HadurHun, on 28 November 2015 - 09:26 PM, said:

Again history repeats itself and I don't get my obj 907 for this [edited]YOU WG, [edited]YOU!!!

 

If you wasn't able to land at least once on map, don't blame WG for not getting tank.

But don't worry you can make points to player ranking on tier VIII. Missions are not included in player ranking.

 

PS. Even this clan had land on tier VI map: http://volknn.ru/4th/en/#/DOBRY

Now they are in 20 ... when the land (on day 2 or 3) they where only in 9 in clan !!

 

Edited by bondyros, 29 November 2015 - 01:26 AM.

[MrBane__]

Do we have to keep all of the enclave's provinces at the same time to get the bonus, or is it enough to just capture (and lose) them one by one?

[mightyjosHi]

Decept1on, on 27 November 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

 

Currently yes but I'll ask if it's possible, your suggestion is indeed more suitable.

 

Any Updates on this point?

 

How will the Mappool look like?

Overlord, Stalingrad included?

Widepark removed?

 

Will the map/area be "wiped"/relocated?

Edited by mightyjosHi, 30 November 2015 - 10:49 AM.

[Finnyan]

knightM, on 28 November 2015 - 12:59 AM, said:

As to the rules:

 

The single biggest issue I have with stage 1 comes again and will be just as pronounced.

 

Auctions  

With just 1/4 of provinces as landings (+ convoys) bidding and landing anywhere is an advantage.

This is completely contrary to all up to now established rules of campaigns, where campaign was "separated" from the other mods and even from CW. So that all clans had basically the same starting point and above all so that only performance in CW during the campaign decided the result . 

(note that equal starting point for big, small and new clans alike was why freezing is disabled during campaigns)

 

This unannounced and unexpected change is changing the starting point for all clans and it also "forces" clans to play skirmishes during the campaign. 

- Clans who did not have tons of influence from before don't like it (why collect tons of influence if you don't need it... ooops suddenly you need it for campaign)

- "New" and small clans who want to play CW have a big disadvantage and end up on overcrowded landings which are very hard to win.

 

Specially the second point is a big issue as it further enhances the "WG makes campaigns for big clans" feeling. Some smaller clans are getting so desperate that they are bidding 2000-5000 influence vs clans they have no chance of beating in the battle with owner just so they avoid 7+ fights on overcrowded landings.

 

During safari this issue was non-existent as all provinces were landings anyway. Numerous clans have complained that playing safari needed too much activity and was exhausting even for 10 days.

So what did WG do? Use the same model for at least 2 stages of a campaign but only made it available for clans that spam influence . Not a good decision.

 

Specifically in this second stage the following issue comes up:

 

If enclaves appear on the very first day (before fighting) clans that bid tons of influence can basically capture whole enclaves on first day without firing a single shot.

 

Provided you gathered enough influence (>>>100k) you can capture all enclaves (and maybe even all convoys) except the 1/4 that have landings on the very first day and be done with stage 2, immediately winning it without winning a single fight. Yes this is only theoretically possible but it does illustrate the point.

 

EDIT: There is actually one more new thing here. Up to now during all campaigns/events except 1st the first day all provinces were landings, now it's 1/4 even on first days which is why the bids are such an issue.

 

Thanks for the very detailed feedback, this is very important for us (even if the effects are not immediate, because that's just not possible).

We are for example thinking of removing auctions and increasing the number of landings (for next year plans) thanks to the feedback you gave us in this topic.

 

Dotalizer, on 28 November 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Hello,

Decept1on, can you tell us how many times you can get bonus points from same convoy? in previous campaign you were able to get bonus points only once. How it will be this time?

Also i guess to earn bonus from enclave you have to hold whole enclave to get bonus?

 

About 1st day

I agree with KnightM, that first day will be horrible. Auctions on Enclaves should be blocked, and only way to get them should be only by fight.

 

cheers

Dotalizer

 

- Once per province. 4 days convoy is moving - 4 times you can cap it and get points.

- Yep. As example - enclave has 2 provinces. You cap 1 province - get 1k points. While holding that province you will get 1k points for each day of owning (defense count, points assigning after province's prime-time). You cap 2nd province.

 

MickeyD, on 29 November 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Do we have to keep all of the enclave's provinces at the same time to get the bonus, or is it enough to just capture (and lose) them one by one?

 

You get +1k for province and bonus (3 or 4k, don't remember now values).
And while holding whole enclave - you get 1k+1k+bonus.

 

mightyjosHi, on 30 November 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Any Updates on this point?

 

How will the Mappool look like?

Overlord, Stalingrad included?

Widepark removed?

 

Will the map/area be "wiped"/relocated?

 

It will be 4 days instead of 5 (I'll request a change in the rules).

Map pool will be like Safari.

Map will be wiped since the region is changing (confirmed).

[knightM]

Actually the first day changes are most pronounced when it comes to the effect of bids.

 

Up to this campaign first day always had landings anywhere on the map. First in stage 1 of this campaign it gave a big advantage to bids.

 

If the same is true for stage 2 and if you can bid on enclaves, it will be even bigger problem.Since the enclaves give you the points immediately and don't even require holding. 

 

Would it be too much of a problem to just change the first day of the stage?

To either:

- landings anywhere on the map 

or

- bids disabled

 

---------------------------------------------

As I wrote I see 3 problems with bids:

 

- it was unknown until the start of the campaign that using influence will have such big effect so clans didn't prepare for that. In safari influence had close to no use.

 

- they do have huge impact on results, so suddenly campaign is not only about how well you do during campaign, but also how much influence you grind beforehand

 

- small clans who want to "try" CW and aim to get a reward are at a disadvantage. Even if they play very well a big/old mediocre/bad clan which just grinded a lot of influence will beat them easily in the rankings for top 50. Clan with lot of influence can also go directly to battle with owner which gives more points, so it will also beat them easily on player-rankings. 

Edited by knightM, 30 November 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Finnyan]

knightM, on 30 November 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

Actually the first day changes are most pronounced when it comes to the effect of bids.

Up to this campaign first day always had landings anywhere on the map. First in stage 1 of this campaign it gave a big advantage to bids.

If the same is true for stage 2 and if you can bid on enclaves, it will be even bigger problem.Since the enclaves give you the points immediately and don't even require holding. 

Would it be too much of a problem to just change the first day of the stage?

To either:

- landings anywhere on the map 

or

- bids disabled

---------------------------------------------

As I wrote I see 3 problems with bids:

 

- it was unknown until the start of the campaign that using influence will have such big effect so clans didn't prepare for that. In safari influence had close to no use.

- they do have huge impact on results, so suddenly campaign is not only about how well you do during campaign, but also how much influence you grind beforehand

- small clans who want to "try" CW and aim to get a reward are at a disadvantage. Even if they play very well a big/old mediocre/bad clan which just grinded a lot of influence will beat them easily in the rankings for top 50. Clan with lot of influence can also go directly to battle with owner which gives more points, so it will also beat them easily on player-rankings. 

 

I agree with you, it was probably not perceived negatively in the first place while designing the event, but we can't change anything now so close to the start and secondly I wouldn't like to try to make changes to avoid mistakes that could happen for doing things in a rush.

That said, I will take your feedback as usual and give it to devs (when the event is over, I make full report).

I know it's not the answer you would like and it's not the answer I would like to give also, because I agree with you here (especially the part about influence for "entry" clans), I hope you'll understand.

[mightyjosHi]

Decept1on, on 30 November 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

- Once per province. 4 days convoy is moving - 4 times you can cap it and get points.

- Yep. As example - enclave has 2 provinces. You cap 1 province - get 1k points. While holding that province you will get 1k points for each day of owning (defense count, points assigning after province's prime-time). You cap 2nd province.

 

You get +1k for province and bonus (3 or 4k, don't remember now values).
And while holding whole enclave - you get 1k+1k+bonus.

 

 

As the rules only talk about "capturing" and not even once about "holding", can you confirm again that holding enclaves will give bonus FP every day?

[hjsteg]

I applaud the fact that knightM support that clans should be on an equal footing at the start of the campaign. At the same time, it is understandable that it is not possible to change the rules for the event on such a short notice. Make this a lessons learned for the next event.