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Forum Structure Changes - December 7th 2015


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Murphy1up #1 Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:15 PM

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Commanders,

In order to ensure our forum navigation and usability is optimum, on Monday December 7th we will be updating the World of Tanks forums with a new forum structure.

We have been regularly reviewing forum usage and navigation – both in regards to player needs and those of our staff. The changes we are implementing are focused on usability and usefulness, whilst generally making the structure and navigation notably more simple.

Here is a sample of the new structure:

  • Announcement
  • Newcomers’ Forum
  • Game Discussion:
    • Gameplay
    • Current Update
    • Public Test
    • Archive
  • Community Area
    • Contests
    • Mods
    • Videos & Streams
    • Other
  • Game Guides
    • Maps
    • In-game Vehicles
    • Tech Corner
  • Clan Zone
    • Clan Recruitment
    • Looking for a Clan
  • Off-Topic

Though we are likely to proceed with this structure change "as is" for now, should you have any feedback or questions, please don't hesitate to let us know.

 

To pre-empt some questions:

The "Gameplay" section under Game Discussion will still function more or less as General Discussion however moderation will be a bit more strict on non game related topics.  It's the busiest part of the forums and we want to keep it focused on the game as much as possible. The off topic section is also a busy section so don't feel bad if your topic is moved there.

Suggestions can be posted under the "Current Update" section. This is to keep topics/ideas relevant to the current game version. - We always check the suggestions section when we're compiling reports on things like patch feedback.

We will try to move as many topics as possible to the relevant areas, if you feel any specific useful topic is missing, please send a PM to myself and include Brynd, MrConway and Ph3lan



Laatikkomafia #2 Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:39 PM

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Why is the player suggestions still kept in the forums? It is useless waste of data space, and makes the forums confusing - some could think that EU forums are read by WG developers..

Edited by Laatikkomafia, 03 December 2015 - 12:41 PM.


SanyaJuutilainen #3 Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:03 PM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 03 December 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Why is the player suggestions still kept in the forums? It is useless waste of data space, and makes the forums confusing - some could think that EU forums are read by WG developers..

 

They are read by EU moderators and forwarded to devs. The feeling "nothing gets forwarded" comes from two things, one being stupid ideas that get skipped even by EU mods, the other is ideas that have been proposed hundred times already and devs know about them. When devs say that about 1 % of the ideas players have is something new and previously not proposed, that might help the game, I think they are still optimistic.

PoIestar #4 Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:48 PM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 03 December 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Why is the player suggestions still kept in the forums? It is useless waste of data space, and makes the forums confusing - some could think that EU forums are read by WG developers..

 

It's sometimes really good how inventive people are to make their idea come true; and sometimes it does.

McNussBomber #5 Posted 03 December 2015 - 03:40 PM

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But where is clan General section? :ohmy:

Murphy1up #6 Posted 03 December 2015 - 04:19 PM

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View Postedger2020, on 03 December 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

But where is clan General section? :ohmy:

 

The Clan sections will get a rework, some sections will stay and other low traffic/barely used sections will be removed or merged.  We'll keep a clan general discussion section, a campaign section likely to be

 

Clan General Discussion  - same as before

Clan Recruitment - same as before

Looking for Clan - same as before

Clan Wars - For campaign discussions, strongholds and new global map

 

neutral ground, featured clans,clan discussion and clan wars officers lounge and training clan sections will be removed (some of these are already hidden)

 

Basically there is a lot of redundant section on the forums which spread the discussion, we're keen to avoid that in order to help threads stay active and keep the discussions going.

 

 

 



Dominus_Imperatoriis #7 Posted 03 December 2015 - 07:17 PM

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View PostEctar, on 03 December 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

To pre-empt some questions:

The "Gameplay" section under Game Discussion will still function more or less as General Discussion however moderation will be a bit more strict on non game related topics.  It's the busiest part of the forums and we want to keep it focused on the game as much as possible. The off topic section is also a busy section so don't feel bad if your topic is moved there.

Suggestions can be posted under the "Current Update" section. This is to keep topics/ideas relevant to the current game version. - We always check the suggestions section when we're compiling reports on things like patch feedback.

We will try to move as many topics as possible to the relevant areas, if you feel any specific useful topic is missing, please send a PM to myself and include Brynd, MrConway and Ph3lan

 

Awesome news.

 

Some improvements that I believe it would facilitate the forum management:

 

- Eliminate reputation system from general discussion (leave working in other sections). In the general discussion it only serve as tool to cause dissidence or intimidate players with different opinions.

- Limit the creation of threads per each account. E.g. Each poster is allowed to create only 1 thread per day. This will deter the general discussion to become cluttered with new threads and divert forum posters for the already open threads.

- Create a top list of threads for the most basic issues and complaints players have, as already happen with the Issues with the Matchmaking thread. Create a permanent thread for artillery balance, for report system complaints, etc.

- Increase interaction of WG staff with the forum posters, mainly the casual complainers. As soon an issue is addressed and answers offered, the complainers are less likely to continue to post (or to continue to play in the hands of the small group of forum dwellers antagonizing players on a daily basis).



McNussBomber #8 Posted 04 December 2015 - 12:17 AM

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View PostDominus_Imperatoriis, on 03 December 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

 

- Limit the creation of threads per each account. E.g. Each poster is allowed to create only 1 thread per day. 

 

Than people will post with alts.



Dominus_Imperatoriis #9 Posted 04 December 2015 - 02:56 AM

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View Postedger2020, on 03 December 2015 - 11:17 PM, said:

 

Than people will post with alts.

 

 


 

Yes!


 

But at least they are limited to a certain number of threads. At the moment, anyone with an alternative account (and more than 50 battles) can havoc this forum with endless threads, posts, reputation points, etc. Its better have a limit than have none. It make the job of the moderators much better. Less drama, less whiners whining about the whiners, less useless threads, etc.


 


 



Murphy1up #10 Posted 04 December 2015 - 11:20 AM

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View PostDominus_Imperatoriis, on 03 December 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

 

Awesome news.

 

Some improvements that I believe it would facilitate the forum management:

 

- Eliminate reputation system from general discussion (leave working in other sections). In the general discussion it only serve as tool to cause dissidence or intimidate players with different opinions.

- Limit the creation of threads per each account. E.g. Each poster is allowed to create only 1 thread per day. This will deter the general discussion to become cluttered with new threads and divert forum posters for the already open threads.

- Create a top list of threads for the most basic issues and complaints players have, as already happen with the Issues with the Matchmaking thread. Create a permanent thread for artillery balance, for report system complaints, etc.

- Increase interaction of WG staff with the forum posters, mainly the casual complainers. As soon an issue is addressed and answers offered, the complainers are less likely to continue to post (or to continue to play in the hands of the small group of forum dwellers antagonizing players on a daily basis).

 

  • We're looking into different options for the reputation system.  In the RU and NA regions they don't have downvotes for example and we're watching how that affects the tone/atmosphere of the forums.
  • Not sure if limiting how many threads people can do a day would reduce spam
  • We had pinned threads in the past for specific hot topics, but players then complain that we're just silencing new threads. We will try to keep new pinned threads relevant and easily accessable
  • A lot of the interaction is spent mainly with casual complainers, which means most interactions are drawn to what is viewed as negative topics. Those players (or as many claim to be ex players) will carry on their way regardless of any answer. I'd much rather focus on helpful and positive topics than have to keep speaking to the same people all the time regarding what new bothers them this week.  More forum interaction equal less time we spend on non forum stuff and our roles don't involve just posting on the forums all day. It's not always an easy balance to maintain and the EN team should hopefully have a 3rd Community Coordinator fairly soon. Every time I try to step back from the forums, it's my name that always gets dropped in conversations when the team is also made up of Brynd, Ph3lan and MrConway.  - We cover all WG products and I can't be active in most threads for all forums.


Cobra6 #11 Posted 04 December 2015 - 12:04 PM

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Where is the "replays" section now?

 

View PostEctar, on 04 December 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

 

  • We're looking into different options for the reputation system.  In the RU and NA regions they don't have downvotes for example and we're watching how that affects the tone/atmosphere of the forums.

 

Downvotes are imperative in a balanced reputation system, they get abused at the moment by people who don't like your opinion, but they are very useful for offensive posting and useless spam/off topic things.

 

 


Edited by Cobra6, 04 December 2015 - 12:05 PM.


Murphy1up #12 Posted 04 December 2015 - 12:23 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 04 December 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Where is the "replays" section now?

 

 

Downvotes are imperative in a balanced reputation system, they get abused at the moment by people who don't like your opinion, but they are very useful for offensive posting and useless spam/off topic things.

 

 

True, but downvotes also take away a massive amount of feedback regarding *why* something may be disliked.   Take for example (just an example) a common article news announcement on the EU and NA forums. -  EU article has -60 downvotes and 2 pages of comments.  NA article has 4 upvotes and 8 pages of comments.  - For the 2nd article because players are having to write to say why they dislike the article, it's a more accurate way of getting feedback.

 

Removing downvotes wouldn't be cancelling negative feedback, it would be removing something which doesn't really serve a purpose anymore, or at least is not being used as intended (I still see the value personally, but I also just wish people would talk rather than just hit the button). Reading why someone doesn't like something is far more valuable and if someone can't be bothered writing something because they'd sooner just click a button, then maybe it's not as much of an issue as they're making out. - If someone has already said the same thing as which bothers you, that person would be upvoted and we'd see others agree/feel that the comment is valuable.

 

An upvote should really be used for if an answer gives value to the topic or is useful, and a down vote if the comment is not useful or off topic. - In most situations people downvote on the forums just because they either don't agree with what's said (and don't say why) or they don't like the person saying it.



SanyaJuutilainen #13 Posted 04 December 2015 - 12:50 PM

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Maybe if you redo this system and remove downvotes, consider lifting the cap on the amount of them too - the 5 we have (I think) is ridiculously low when you read for example 20 threads in a day. There are usually more people who you find quite patient, explaining stuff and contributing to the community, or at least generally funny, lifting the mood.

McNussBomber #14 Posted 04 December 2015 - 02:48 PM

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View PostEctar, on 04 December 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

True, but downvotes also take away a massive amount of feedback regarding *why* something may be disliked.   Take for example (just an example) a common article news announcement on the EU and NA forums. -  EU article has -60 downvotes and 2 pages of comments.  NA article has 4 upvotes and 8 pages of comments.  - For the 2nd article because players are having to write to say why they dislike the article, it's a more accurate way of getting feedback.

 

Yes,  its not easy task to balance whats better, while no negrep will give you more feedback, some people simply cant be bothered to answer same questions over and over again for 3 years, clicking button is much easier. 

 

When in doubt what to do its always good to look at big players - for example FaceBook does not have downvote so some statuses can get 1000 replays, while YouTube does.

 

View PostSanyaJuutilainen, on 04 December 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Maybe if you redo this system and remove downvotes, consider lifting the cap on the amount of them too - the 5 we have (I think) is ridiculously low when you read for example 20 threads in a day. There are usually more people who you find quite patient, explaining stuff and contributing to the community, or at least generally funny, lifting the mood.

 

Than you should be careful what u + and not just click first post you read. For example, I very rarely run out of votes.



Ubertron_X #15 Posted 04 December 2015 - 02:49 PM

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View PostEctar, on 04 December 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

 

True, but downvotes also take away a massive amount of feedback regarding *why* something may be disliked.   Take for example (just an example) a common article news announcement on the EU and NA forums. -  EU article has -60 downvotes and 2 pages of comments.  NA article has 4 upvotes and 8 pages of comments.  - For the 2nd article because players are having to write to say why they dislike the article, it's a more accurate way of getting feedback.

 

Removing downvotes wouldn't be cancelling negative feedback, it would be removing something which doesn't really serve a purpose anymore, or at least is not being used as intended (I still see the value personally, but I also just wish people would talk rather than just hit the button). Reading why someone doesn't like something is far more valuable and if someone can't be bothered writing something because they'd sooner just click a button, then maybe it's not as much of an issue as they're making out. - If someone has already said the same thing as which bothers you, that person would be upvoted and we'd see others agree/feel that the comment is valuable.

 

An upvote should really be used for if an answer gives value to the topic or is useful, and a down vote if the comment is not useful or off topic. - In most situations people downvote on the forums just because they either don't agree with what's said (and don't say why) or they don't like the person saying it.

 

Ok so now you want to have pages upon pages of answers why we don't like bundles instead of -18k reputation for the respective WG account, I see.

 

/sarcasm

 

You are right that an elaborate answer will always be more useful in terms of how to improve things in the future than a simple 'bah, me no like'.

 

However there is a reason for simple yes/no answers and this is to keep things simple and quick. If you are going to vote it is this party or candidate or the other and not write an essay about each party / candidate and why you voted for or against them.

 

So instead of simply removing the 'quick survey option' players and forumites should be encouraged to give detailed feedback instead of just pressing like / not like.

 

The problem with this is that in my opinion many, many, many forumites are under the impression that as far as WG is concerned their opinion it does not matter at all, no matter what they write and about which topic they write, so they simply stop to give beneficial feedback anymore, just pressing the buttons instead.

 

It's called voting with your feet...


Edited by Ubertron_X, 04 December 2015 - 03:04 PM.


Cobra6 #16 Posted 04 December 2015 - 02:53 PM

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View PostEctar, on 04 December 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

 

True, but downvotes also take away a massive amount of feedback regarding *why* something may be disliked.   Take for example (just an example) a common article news announcement on the EU and NA forums. -  EU article has -60 downvotes and 2 pages of comments.  NA article has 4 upvotes and 8 pages of comments.  - For the 2nd article because players are having to write to say why they dislike the article, it's a more accurate way of getting feedback.

 

Removing downvotes wouldn't be cancelling negative feedback, it would be removing something which doesn't really serve a purpose anymore, or at least is not being used as intended (I still see the value personally, but I also just wish people would talk rather than just hit the button). Reading why someone doesn't like something is far more valuable and if someone can't be bothered writing something because they'd sooner just click a button, then maybe it's not as much of an issue as they're making out. - If someone has already said the same thing as which bothers you, that person would be upvoted and we'd see others agree/feel that the comment is valuable.

 

An upvote should really be used for if an answer gives value to the topic or is useful, and a down vote if the comment is not useful or off topic. - In most situations people downvote on the forums just because they either don't agree with what's said (and don't say why) or they don't like the person saying it.

 

Or only have the possibility to downvote for people who have more than 500 posreps on their account? So there is some form of spam filtering.

 

As for the news articles, those two pages give you a good indication what the problems are and you can couple that with all the negreps fairly straight forward. Most of these issues are years old now and because people have a feeling they are not adequately dealt with they negrep certain articles mainly to do with specials and "bundles". The solution to that is to listen and change the bundle systems to include less useless ballast.

 

Removing negreps would make it seem on first glance that only people agree with your post, the option to downvote it is a measure of balance that will be removed.

 

I've been a member of this board for what, 5-6 years now and have a rep of 3600+, if the system was that easy to abuse I would not have this number of posreps.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 04 December 2015 - 03:11 PM.


SanyaJuutilainen #17 Posted 04 December 2015 - 03:30 PM

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View Postedger2020, on 04 December 2015 - 02:48 PM, said:

Than you should be careful what u + and not just click first post you read. For example, I very rarely run out of votes.

Sorry, but I don't feel like going through 20 topics, mark down which posts I like and then go through them again and rate just the Top5 of the day. I have other life than WoT forums too.



Murphy1up #18 Posted 04 December 2015 - 03:40 PM

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I can see the value in both systems and I like that EU has downvotes as well as upvotes as content/users with high reputation can be seen as "hard earned" reputation. For now the reputation system is staying "as is" for the EU forums, but we are looking at options on how to approve it and make it more appropriate/useful for forum users. So it's highly possible that changes may happen some time after the forum structure is changed.  We'll be sure to advise players of any changes first and the reasons why.

McNussBomber #19 Posted 04 December 2015 - 05:30 PM

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View PostSanyaJuutilainen, on 04 December 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

Sorry, but I don't feel like going through 20 topics, mark down which posts I like and then go through them again and rate just the Top5 of the day. I have other life than WoT forums too.

 

I don't have time either, thats why I don't read 20 or 30 topics, just few I found interesting.

If you give more votes to people that would lead to rep inflation, its not same to have +100 rep in current state and if players had 20 votes. Even than people would say why dont we have 30 votes or 40 and so on.....

 

View PostEctar, on 04 December 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

I can see the value in both systems and I like that EU has downvotes as well as upvotes as content/users with high reputation can be seen as "hard earned" reputation. .

 

You are talking about someone in particular? ;)



Dominus_Imperatoriis #20 Posted 04 December 2015 - 07:27 PM

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View PostEctar, on 04 December 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

 

  • We're looking into different options for the reputation system.  In the RU and NA regions they don't have downvotes for example and we're watching how that affects the tone/atmosphere of the forums.
  • Not sure if limiting how many threads people can do a day would reduce spam
  • We had pinned threads in the past for specific hot topics, but players then complain that we're just silencing new threads. We will try to keep new pinned threads relevant and easily accessable
  • A lot of the interaction is spent mainly with casual complainers, which means most interactions are drawn to what is viewed as negative topics. Those players (or as many claim to be ex players) will carry on their way regardless of any answer. I'd much rather focus on helpful and positive topics than have to keep speaking to the same people all the time regarding what new bothers them this week.  More forum interaction equal less time we spend on non forum stuff and our roles don't involve just posting on the forums all day. It's not always an easy balance to maintain and the EN team should hopefully have a 3rd Community Coordinator fairly soon. Every time I try to step back from the forums, it's my name that always gets dropped in conversations when the team is also made up of Brynd, Ph3lan and MrConway.  - We cover all WG products and I can't be active in most threads for all forums.

 

 

Regarding what I highlighted above:


 

I was not accounting just for spam in my suggestion, but also for eventual genuine posts. At the moment there is a large amount of threads appearing each day in the general discussion. When forum posters have a very limited capacity to create threads, they will look for already open threads to discuss their issues. The idea is to make the "community" closer when discussing issues. Unlimited creation of threads does not help any "community" get along with different opinions when discussing. They will often jump from thread to thread when discussing, derailing the original objective of each thread. You can observe this right now in the general discussions. Threads which start with one subject and then end derailed by active forum posters, often bringing the subject of other threads or going completely off the topic. By the way, limit the creation of threads also free the moderation of some unnecessary work. They will have less threads to monitor, less threads to close, less threads to archive, etc. Consequently this will decrease the "pressure" your team is having now due the lack of staff.


Edited by Dominus_Imperatoriis, 04 December 2015 - 07:28 PM.





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