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Lybia War


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Nathaniak #21 Posted 06 September 2011 - 09:46 PM

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The reports from Libya do appear to indicate that they are better off without the former dictator. I mean, before NATO intervened, he ordered tanks to crush the rebels in Benghazi. Tanks against lightly armed rebels in a city full of civilians. If we'd let the slaughter happen, there'd be people comparing it to Tiananmen Square (I know it's an unfair comparison, but they would).

Yes, living in Libya under Gaddafi had its benefits - if you were a loyal supporter who toed the party line. If you expressed dissent, you were taken and beaten up or killed. Human rights groups claim to have uncovered evidence of loyalist forces using cluster bombs.

Fundamentally - and this is my main point - the Libyan people won back their country. NATO helped, yes, but the vast majority of the effort and the losses came from the people. They rose up against their dictator, just like in Tunisia and Egypt. Why would they have been able to do that, had the willpower and determination to do that, if life was so good under Gaddafi. And, although Libya has oil, it doesn't actually have that much compared to other countries in the area. But NATO have not invaded there...


cDa, as a 'super-moderator', do you think that you could at least spell these thing correctly? 'democracy' 'paid' 'government'.

BloodZ. You really thing that the CIA could organise such a revolt? Most of their arms come from France - do the CIA control the French? There's no need to get embroiled in conspiracy theories. I would not be surprised if you were one of those people who claim that the US is covering up evidence of UFOs...

From past experiences, it's hard to reason with people like you, who hold these things as a matter of faith and not as a matter of evidence. Take your conspiracy theories, I'll stick to logic, rationalism and the scientific process - the cornerstones of our society.

tul #22 Posted 06 September 2011 - 09:59 PM

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And now all their petrol belong to "The Good Guys", but hey! they have democacry now! in a pair of months they are going to be as happy as iraki people! [/sarcasm]

Dr_Nooooo #23 Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:16 PM

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View PostNathaniak, on 06 September 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

The reports from Libya do appear to indicate that they are better off without the former dictator.
Afghanistan and Iraq are also better off without their former dictator? Libya was a great place to live under Gaddafi.

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I mean, before NATO intervened, he ordered tanks to crush the rebels in Benghazi. Tanks against lightly armed rebels in a city full of civilians. If we'd let the slaughter happen, there'd be people comparing it to Tiananmen Square (I know it's an unfair comparison, but they would).
Why should you not use Tanks to crush lightly armed terrorists? If the Libyan Armed Forces had used Infantry against the terrorists the casualities of the real Libyans would be higher.

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Yes, living in Libya under Gaddafi had its benefits - if you were a loyal supporter who toed the party line. If you expressed dissent, you were taken and beaten up or killed. Human rights groups claim to have uncovered evidence of loyalist forces using cluster bombs.
Guantanamo? Abu-Ghuraib?

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Fundamentally - and this is my main point - the Libyan people won back their country.
They lost their country, now they'll get an american puppet or an islamistic state. Under Gaddafi 98% of the oil-money stayed inside Libya. In the wikileaks date american agents complained about this high %.

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NATO helped, yes, but the vast majority of the effort and the losses came from the people.
Those were supernumeraries for the pictures. The real "work" was done by the NATO airforces and groundforces.


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They rose up against their dictator, just like in Tunisia and Egypt. Why would they have been able to do that, had the willpower and determination to do that, if life was so good under Gaddafi.
NATO


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And, although Libya has oil, it doesn't actually have that much compared to other countries in the area. But NATO have not invaded there...
Ealier or later there will be "revolutions" over there too. Also Libya has huge fossil water under the desert. Gaddafi build pipelines to supply the libyans with clean water whereever they lived.


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From past experiences, it's hard to reason with people like you, who hold these things as a matter of faith and not as a matter of evidence. Take your conspiracy theories, I'll stick to logic, rationalism and the scientific process - the cornerstones of our society.
Harder with people like you who believe every Propaganda NATO/rebels tell them.

What was with the Viagra pushed Gaddafi-fighter? Lie.
What was with the Jets against peaceful demonstrators? Lie.
What was with the death of Gaddafi sons? Lie.
What was with the capture of different cities (like brega)? Lie.
What was with the capture of Tripoli? Terrorists claimed to own 99% of the city. Yet Saif al-Islam could make a little trip with journalists? Lie.
What was with the fake pictures from Green-Square in Tripoli (which they rebuild in Quatar) Lie.
What was with the rebel advance one month ago and earlier, every two days you read: next days we have won the war? Lie.

Dr_Wycior #24 Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:32 PM

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Another computer game forum populated by self proclaimed political experts.

But sometimes I'd feel more fulfilled making Christmas cards with the mentally ill. - Morrisey

BloodZ #25 Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:33 PM

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View PostNathaniak, on 06 September 2011 - 09:46 PM, said:

The reports from Libya do appear to indicate that they are better off without the former dictator. I mean, before NATO intervened, he ordered tanks to crush the rebels in Benghazi. Tanks against lightly armed rebels in a city full of civilians. If we'd let the slaughter happen, there'd be people comparing it to Tiananmen Square (I know it's an unfair comparison, but they would).

Yes, living in Libya under Gaddafi had its benefits - if you were a loyal supporter who toed the party line. If you expressed dissent, you were taken and beaten up or killed. Human rights groups claim to have uncovered evidence of loyalist forces using cluster bombs.

Fundamentally - and this is my main point - the Libyan people won back their country. NATO helped, yes, but the vast majority of the effort and the losses came from the people. They rose up against their dictator, just like in Tunisia and Egypt. Why would they have been able to do that, had the willpower and determination to do that, if life was so good under Gaddafi. And, although Libya has oil, it doesn't actually have that much compared to other countries in the area. But NATO have not invaded there...


cDa, as a 'super-moderator', do you think that you could at least spell these thing correctly? 'democracy' 'paid' 'government'.

BloodZ. You really thing that the CIA could organise such a revolt? Most of their arms come from France - do the CIA control the French? There's no need to get embroiled in conspiracy theories. I would not be surprised if you were one of those people who claim that the US is covering up evidence of UFOs...

From past experiences, it's hard to reason with people like you, who hold these things as a matter of faith and not as a matter of evidence. Take your conspiracy theories, I'll stick to logic, rationalism and the scientific process - the cornerstones of our society.



ppl like me  :D
priceless
evidence u say
there r plenty of examples backed up by evidence that the CIA is doing exactly the things i said
Example:
The mujahedins were created, payed and armed by CIA to fight against the russians in Afghanistan when the soviets invade them
the guy who was recruiting 4 the mujahedins is no other then Osama /bin ladens family were very close to the Bushes back in those days - far as i know Osamas brother funded George W. Bush and give him a kick start in the petroleum business/ and suddenly after they did their job, and the time 4 a new threat approached, the mujahedins were renamed as al qaeda /1989 i think/.
And just 4 ur information the core of the mujahedins is the former muslim brotherhood - which were the nazis in the midle east
I dont know about conspiracy theories but i can list some conspiracy FACTS which u can go and check by urself
i strongly suggest u to check the REAL world before talking to ppl like me!

Dr_Nooooo #26 Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:33 PM

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Why do you need to be a "political expert" to have your OWN opinion?

SpaceSoviet #27 Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:50 PM

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Guantanamo? Abu-Ghuraib?

Lockerbie?

Dr_Nooooo #28 Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:51 PM

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Gaddafi might have some blood on his hands. The USA, France, GB and other NATO countries have much much more on theirs.

ColdHeat #29 Posted 06 September 2011 - 10:58 PM

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I'm surprised how some here portray civilians - who fight for democracy in a civil war - as terrorists and can actually defend corrupt dictatorships and opression as long as the country remains "stable" this way. Even though lybia wasnt stable at all as everyone can see now. This shows quite some naivety. Well.. some people might be men and others mice. Still it is as frightening as amusing to see, how unsophisticated some people think.


Luckily the world is not entirely populated by people of this kind or we would still live in dark medieval ages. Those "terrorists" like Washington, Ghandi or Cicero really must give you shivers, when you only hear their names.

I somewhat wonder what those Anti-American conspiracists think when they claim that Lybia would become a "US puppet" AND an "islamic state". Which phantom US groundtroops should actually control this puppet state? Its not even a religious coup d'etat. This statement was just a pack of nonesense. Also the one who claimed this has obvious no idea about warfare, if he claims that the main work was done by NATO air and groundforces? Which groundforces?? It was an entirely airforce mission and you don't win wars by airforces. Groundforces do.

Gangerr #30 Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:00 PM

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View PostcDa, on 06 September 2011 - 06:52 PM, said:

My grand uncle worked in Lybia(pensioned about 5 yrs ago), this is how he explains life there: no households pay bills(water,power,heating), petrol is very cheap, about 10l for price of chocolate bar, health and education is free, students that wish to study abroad get payed studies, 2400 eur a month(like a salary),payed food,car,appartment. newlywed couple gets an appartment...

Now if that is called dictatorship.. screw democracy.. i want a "dictator"

I Know, but it won't be now.  Like I have said in other posts about this war, only the people of libya will suffer in the long term including the so called rebels and their familys.

Wolfesblut #31 Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:02 PM

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Libya was a great place to live under Gaddafi.
Oh, that's the reason why so many Libyan citizens stand up against him... :unsure:

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Guantanamo? Abu-Ghuraib?
Offtopic much?

And could you please stop calling them terrorists. They identfy itself, the have a own government and their primary targets are military. Therefore, a proper name would be "combatants","Rebels", or if fits your political opinion better "Insurgents" ;)

But its hard to discuss these things with people like you who believe everything that isn't crystal clear is done by the evil forces of the NATO/USA.
Nobody here said anything about how good and awesome the NATO support is/was (I personally believe it's a farce and not very effective), but already some people here are labeled as mindless followers.

/edit:

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Gaddafi might have some blood on his hands. The USA, France, GB and other NATO countries have much much more on theirs.
So you're saying as long as Libya doesn't have the same "body count" as other countries, it should get no criticism?

Gangerr #32 Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:04 PM

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View PostSpaceSoviet, on 06 September 2011 - 10:50 PM, said:

Lockerbie?

Everything about lockerbie stinks to high heaven, I don't believe we are told the truth about what happen that night.  Do I think libya had anything to do with lockerbie, no I don't but I do believe some other foreign agency was involved.

ColdHeat #33 Posted 06 September 2011 - 11:53 PM

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I guess that will possibly get clearer in the post-gaddafi time. Still libya took full responsibility for this act and i wonder which foreign agency would have profitd through this act. To me thats a case closed.

ViktorKitov #34 Posted 07 September 2011 - 12:20 AM

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What I know is that those fanatics accused 5 Bulgarian nurses and 1 doctor in infecting (On purpose) libyian children with HIV.

http://en.wikipedia...._trial_in_Libya

So as bad as this might sound. Karma is a bitch dear libyinas.

PS Didnt you moderators say, we should not discus politics on the forum?

Deukmans #35 Posted 07 September 2011 - 12:33 AM

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using army on terrorists is ok, using it on unarmed protesters is not.

and lybia wasnt the "good life",there arent many refugees(from before the war!) for nothing...

Dr_Nooooo #36 Posted 07 September 2011 - 12:51 AM

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View PostColdHeat, on 06 September 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

warfare, if he claims that the main work was done by NATO air and groundforces? Which groundforces?? It was an entirely airforce mission and you don't win wars by airforces. Groundforces do.

You really think there are no NATO/Quatar,..., groundforces because you are told so? There is lots of evidence that there are NATO special ground forces in local clothing fighting in Libya on the terrorists side. Some reports about special forces "helping to find al-Gaddafi" even were in the media...

BloodZ #37 Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:42 AM

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View PostDr_Nooooo, on 07 September 2011 - 12:51 AM, said:

You really think there are no NATO/Quatar,..., groundforces because you are told so? There is lots of evidence that there are NATO special ground forces in local clothing fighting in Libya on the terrorists side. Some reports about special forces "helping to find al-Gaddafi" even were in the media...

Same shit different day
False flag operation
we had them since ....
before we can write
there r so many examples of it
its mind boggling
u want to start a war - thats the way
and lets get real - U.S r good in one thingh - war - and they R pretty good at it.
They just change the name
war - peacekeeping
war - bringing democracy
u know americans declare war on everything ?  :blink:
war on drugs
war on poverty
war on terror
war on ... u name it
they got it /if u can profit 4 it of course/

Hey and when the U.S goes @ war they dont go alone
they bring their friends with them - English, German, Polish, Norwegian and so on
we just can refuse them they r so sweet  :P oo and they got us by the balls  just by the way sort of speak

and about NATO - this is the way to suppress any public rebellion, the way to suppress any democratic society  
most countries have a law that forbids the Armed Forces /the army/ of this nation
to police in the country borders upon the country citizens
BUT if there is a big uprise and the police cant handle it - NATO comes in
and the Blue Helmets ... dont play around
So the government say - u gonna pay those minorites electrical, water, education and fair enough health bills
u just say yes.
because u cant do shit
u say i'll vote 4 the other guy next time ... sure
BUT its like peaking between two turds - shitted by the same guy
U just go to work, Buy, Pay taxes and listen what they tell u
if there r ppl who believe in democracy .... i am sorry 4 them.
Majority of ppl is a pure working force for the benefit of others

Dont get mad - thats the way it is.

ColdHeat #38 Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:44 AM

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Yes, theres no reason to believe something else, exept if youre into conspiracy theories. After all its a UN resolution mission, carried out by multiple NATO and non NATO countries. IF some soldiers would be there, information would be impossible not to leak through about it. May it be through families, reporters or other countries. Small "special forces" units MIGHT be possible for some rare important missions like finding gaddafi but that could never be called an occupying force and even that is doubtful. Special forces could mean everything from soldiers to agents, which would be most logical, since you dont need special forces soldiers if you got enough of men in the rebel forces but have no idea, where he is. Do you have some verified sources for the claim of special forces? The only one being confirmed so far of using foreign ground forces is Gaddafi, who uses mercenaries.

Edit: I think i got an idea what you were trying to say but how shall i take someone serious who is constantly using acronyms like "4", "u", "r" or "ppl"? Nothing personal but thats not a sign of maturity and therefor, you discredit your own intellectual credibility this way.

BloodZ #39 Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:51 AM

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View PostColdHeat, on 07 September 2011 - 01:44 AM, said:

Yes, theres no reason to believe something else, exept if youre into conspiracy theories.

its a big difference between conspiracy theories and conspiracy facts
most of the false flag operation r revealed
they extend everywhere except Antarctica, a lot of wars started like that
check Vietnam war - false flag operation started it all
here r the false flag operations of the U.S
http://911review.com..._perations.html
check the facts behind those statements and do it from different sources
the result will be the same 100 % sure of it

just browse the wars of the past 100 years and u will c that this is the way to go
if u want to do it.

:Smile_honoring:

ColdHeat #40 Posted 07 September 2011 - 01:56 AM

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No one denied the existence and use of false flag operations and vice versa the pure existence of them is no proof, that there were any hidden operations in libya. Thats not the topic anyway. Large groundforce formations, needed to occupy a country are too large of a scale for false flag operations.




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