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Mythbusters - Polish Cavalry during II WW


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KenKil79 #21 Posted 13 September 2011 - 05:04 PM

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View PostSchumiGSG9, on 13 September 2011 - 04:42 PM, said:

WW1 Tanks vs WW2 ... then they could as well use horses
A majority of our Tanks in September 1939 where still Panzer I & II, not that overall superior i would say.

As stated above: The only question was, how to use tanks in "modern" warfare. Guderian just had figured out the answer...

regards

Shootingstarr #22 Posted 13 September 2011 - 05:09 PM

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the myth of the polish attacking tanks with swords is based off german propaganda
goebbels did a terrific job... a lot of his lies are still believed to be true by many ppl
polish army used tanks to fight off russians in belarus ffs :lol:

oh and before I forget: germany also used horses in the beginning of the war, because means of transportation were limited
see?

theta0123 #23 Posted 13 September 2011 - 05:43 PM

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Germany used horses troughout the entire war...

steview162 #24 Posted 13 September 2011 - 06:12 PM

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Most German divisions were horse-powered, never enough tanks, APC's, trucks and cars to go around.

Polish tanks in 1939 were not the best in the world, neither were the German, but their combined arms tactics, and close tactical air support were. As was proved by their track record up to 41/42. Then thankfully manpower and materiel kicked in, and we're all here enjoying the fruits of that.  :Smile_great:

Tuccy #25 Posted 13 September 2011 - 06:13 PM

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TZo expand on the infamous incident, the Polish cavalry was not pinned by the armored cars, but repelled - and as the AC's were a surprise, the cavalry took the fastest possible path to the cover of traas, which went around the AC's (turning in the open would mean more casaulties).

Rest (reporters the second day, with tanks around) is true.

The myth was deeply ingrained by both Nazi and Communist propaganda actually, for the Nazis it was the proof of inferiority of the Polish, for Commies it was the proof how brave soldiers were let down by the "ruling classes" so they had to fight tqanks with sabres... Not to forget various romantics whom the image appealed as well etc. So it is a myth that got ingrained rather deep... Kinda like "T-34 supertank, Sherman crap", "Japanese were disciplined" and others ;)

Grippin #26 Posted 13 September 2011 - 06:47 PM

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Operation: Middle-age warfare xd

Sotahullu #27 Posted 13 September 2011 - 08:03 PM

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Im shocked that some people think that poles dindt have tanks?  :o

Poland was 4th most powefull tank force in the world after 1919 but Poland didnt have the necessary factories to replace Ft-17 tanks until late 30...

And dondt get it wrong but Ft-17 could challenge Pz1 (bulletproof) and pzII (not-so-bulletproof).

So what poles got?

about 50 Vickers 6-ton tanks
160 Ft-17 (organised into separate platoons)
147 7Tp tank (diesel engine, excellent Bofors 37mm tankgun)
over 250 TKS (tankettes)

So Poland didnt fight with dull wooden spoon, more like a rusty shortsword.

SchumiGSG9 #28 Posted 13 September 2011 - 08:09 PM

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what ever war is long over only in Games in Movies it should still be fought

Cuddly_Spider #29 Posted 13 September 2011 - 08:48 PM

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View PostBloodZ, on 13 September 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

Nice to know that



but to be honest the show is everything but a science show
i have watched shows where they just turn the fact around to their advantage
or  completely ignore important parts of what ever they r mythbusting
I watch their shows sometimes but i remain skeptical.

Agreed.

I really don't get why it is thought of a credible science show or is even shown on the discovery channel when really it's just entertainment. It really belongs on Sky 1 or Channel 5 or something.

MikeeTheShot #30 Posted 13 September 2011 - 10:15 PM

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If Polish had so great and elite and super cavalery, which was.. due to that movie.. most of the times succesfull...
Why it took just a few weeks to germans to completely conquer them?

I believe they had some strategic value, but not high enough in new way of the war (German new doctrine - The Blitzkrieg)

Icecreamvan #31 Posted 13 September 2011 - 10:58 PM

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View PostMikeeTheShot, on 13 September 2011 - 10:15 PM, said:

If Polish had so great and elite and super cavalery, which was.. due to that movie.. most of the times succesfull...
Why it took just a few weeks to germans to completely conquer them?

I believe they had some strategic value, but not high enough in new way of the war (German new doctrine - The Blitzkrieg)

The "Polenfeldzug" didn't took long because Poland was attacked from all directions by three Nations (yes, THREE: Germany, Soviet Union and Slovakia; even though the Slovakian contribution to the campaign was nonsignificant) and the Polish armed forces lacked modern equipment since the Polish arms industry was in its early stages.

theta0123 #32 Posted 13 September 2011 - 11:02 PM

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View PostMikeeTheShot, on 13 September 2011 - 10:15 PM, said:

If Polish had so great and elite and super cavalery, which was.. due to that movie.. most of the times succesfull...
Why it took just a few weeks to germans to completely conquer them?

I believe they had some strategic value, but not high enough in new way of the war (German new doctrine - The Blitzkrieg)
WW2 is about Tanks and aircraft. Poland had some, wich kicked ass, but not in numbers.

most of the polish army got attacked by complete surprise. The polish units that did organized, putted up a hell of a fight

Sotahullu #33 Posted 14 September 2011 - 05:44 AM

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Now i could kill that Myth number 2: Polands Airplanes were destroyed during the 1.9.1939 (First day of war).

Truth is that Polands air forces got many secret bases all over the Poland. So majority of airplanes (90%) was moved to these bases many weeks before the war outbreak. They just spend majority during that time trying to counter German air superiority and stop bomber raids  :Smile-bajan2:

And yes, i know this is out-topic but too many people believes in this myth   :Smile-hiding:

Arkhell #34 Posted 14 September 2011 - 07:54 AM

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View Posttheta0123, on 13 September 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

Germany used horses troughout the entire war...


everyone did.... it was one of the best ways to tow a gun trough heavy terrain instead of using half tracks/tanks.

Botan #35 Posted 14 September 2011 - 08:32 AM

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View Posttheta0123, on 13 September 2011 - 11:02 PM, said:

WW2 is about Tanks and aircraft. Poland had some, wich kicked ass, but not in numbers.

most of the polish army got attacked by complete surprise. The polish units that did organized, putted up a hell of a fight

Mobilization of polish army was delayed one day, because France asked us to not provoke Germans. :lol:
Fortunately a "silent" mobilization was proceed earlier, also planes was transferred to field airports.

As long as polish unit defended prepared positions Germans got a problems. Later, they they broke front in some places units start to retreated to Vistula line, but in mobile war Germans was better.  
They main problem was a communication between units.

marit #36 Posted 14 September 2011 - 09:46 AM

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View PostMikeeTheShot, on 13 September 2011 - 10:15 PM, said:

If Polish had so great and elite and super cavalery, which was.. due to that movie.. most of the times succesfull...
Why it took just a few weeks to germans to completely conquer them?
Polish defend plan was to defend country as long as you can, because France and UK would attack Germany from the west - that was aliance between Poland France and UK but it was only "paper" aliance... Polish units were moving back to Vistula river where they could defend for long time but on 17th Semptember USSR hits Poland and nobody will defend from 2 sides.

Here you go a movie from 1939 when Warsaw was under siege, it was filed by american journalist - it's worth to see.


Thanks all for Your posts.

Extra bonus: Movie of my village in 1932 where 50% were Jews, in nowadays there are no Jews.


theta0123 #37 Posted 14 September 2011 - 10:25 AM

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View PostBotan, on 14 September 2011 - 08:32 AM, said:

Mobilization of polish army was delayed one day, because France asked us to not provoke Germans. :lol:
Fortunately a "silent" mobilization was proceed earlier, also planes was transferred to field airports.

As long as polish unit defended prepared positions Germans got a problems. Later, they they broke front in some places units start to retreated to Vistula line, but in mobile war Germans was better.  
They main problem was a communication between units.
Exactly. The polish units that putted up an organized resistance putted up a hell of a fight against the germans
Poland was an army wich was also rapidly reforming. If Poland was givin another year, i bet they would have been Finland N2.
The polish had many promosing equipment in development or just entering production
I once came very close on buying a polish Kb wz. 98a. Or the "polish mauser". I am still pissed i dont have it :(

Grippin #38 Posted 14 September 2011 - 12:23 PM

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View PostSotahullu, on 13 September 2011 - 08:03 PM, said:

Im shocked that some people think that poles dindt have tanks?  :o

Poland was 4th most powefull tank force in the world after 1919 but Poland didnt have the necessary factories to replace Ft-17 tanks until late 30...

And dondt get it wrong but Ft-17 could challenge Pz1 (bulletproof) and pzII (not-so-bulletproof).

So what poles got?

about 50 Vickers 6-ton tanks
160 Ft-17 (organised into separate platoons)
147 7Tp tank (diesel engine, excellent Bofors 37mm tankgun)
over 250 TKS (tankettes)

So Poland didnt fight with dull wooden spoon, more like a rusty shortsword.
But we are talking about 1939... Ok they had tanks... But not as modern as the german's or as lot as germans had... They hadn't chance with horses vs tanks... Which machine gun kills a tank? and which machinegun doesn't kill a horse?....

OldIronsides #39 Posted 14 September 2011 - 12:53 PM

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View PostGrippin, on 14 September 2011 - 12:23 PM, said:

But we are talking about 1939... Ok they had tanks... But not as modern as the german's or as lot as germans had... They hadn't chance with horses vs tanks... Which machine gun kills a tank? and which machinegun doesn't kill a horse?....

In 1939 most Panzers of the Wehrmacht were Pz. I and Pz. II - and those were completely out of date as well. But indeed the Germans had huge numbers of them (compared to the Polish army's tanks) and a new and superior strategy (doesn't have to be named again). But it seems you still don't get what this all is about. The Polish army did not have horses instead of tanks, they had horses and tanks, which were used for different purposes. And as history has shown, fast cavalry raids against unsuspecting troops, probably behind the front, or a massive cavalry breakthrough were still effective means of warfare against infantry.

MikeeTheShot #40 Posted 14 September 2011 - 09:47 PM

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View PostOldIronsides, on 14 September 2011 - 12:53 PM, said:

In 1939 most Panzers of the Wehrmacht were Pz. I and Pz. II - and those were completely out of date as well. But indeed the Germans had huge numbers of them (compared to the Polish army's tanks) and a new and superior strategy (doesn't have to be named again). But it seems you still don't get what this all is about. The Polish army did not have horses instead of tanks, they had horses and tanks, which were used for different purposes. And as history has shown, fast cavalry raids against unsuspecting troops, probably behind the front, or a massive cavalry breakthrough were still effective means of warfare against infantry.

well.. i am not sure about that, but as far as i know, most of the tanks in german army at Polish and French campaign were Czech 35s and 38s... atleat most of the tanks capable of taking out another tank..