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Black Prince - a Buff or a few of them?

Buff black prince

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Poll: Suggested Buffs (143 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

Does the BP need a Buff or two+?

  1. Better Penetrating gun (top gun) (67 votes [19.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.82%

  2. Better Alpha damage (top gun) (66 votes [19.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.53%

  3. Better turret armour (33 votes [9.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.76%

  4. Better gun depression (19 votes [5.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.62%

  5. Less gaps in front armour/improved front armour (48 votes [14.20%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.20%

  6. Better side armour (21 votes [6.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.21%

  7. More speed (wouldn't fit the breed though) (41 votes [12.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.13%

  8. More mobility (although this is already quite mobile) (11 votes [3.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.25%

  9. All of the above (25 votes [7.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.40%

  10. Doesn't need a buff (7 votes [2.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.07%

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philjd #1 Posted 15 May 2016 - 12:21 PM

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I am getting a bit cheesed off with this tank (I am nowhere near 'good' at tanking). BUT a T7 heavy should be able to be a 'tank' in at least some situations, this one doesn't seem to be able to cope with anything.

 

Yes I could LTP better, but lets look at the alternatives:-

1) IS - good gun, decent mobility and decent armour

2) T29 - hull down king

3) Tiger - DPM master with very good turret and lots of HP. Excellent gun.

4) AMX M4 (45) - pretty mobile with decent gun

5) T7 Jap - no idea about this one.

 

*Mutters in frustration* - and yes, I do get my '[edited]' handed to me far too often in this thing :p

 


Edited by philjd, 15 May 2016 - 12:24 PM.


Gremlin182 #2 Posted 15 May 2016 - 01:54 PM

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Pretty decent tank imo did the heavy tank mission where damage dealt taken and blocked much exceed 6000 and almost did the T28 version where its 8000 damage.

There are very few actual weak spots the MG port and hatch in the front hull are not any weaker than the rest of the hull.

Its flat armour its true but you can angle it pretty well the tracks absorb a lot of damage, turret is pretty solid and the commanders cupola is tiny.

There is a weak point on the front sprocket, not everyone knows about it but if you have an accurate gun and know where to shoot its a pain for BP players.

 

Gun well thats typical british style high rof average pen low damage the 17 pounder is really struggling at tier 7 but the 20 pounder would be too powerful.

So 170 pen 150 damage is what you get.

When you are top tier its fine when you are not its a pain and you must play support heavy and I recommend a decent number of premium rounds.20+

I carry 50 ap 30 APCR and 4 HE the 239 pen of the premium rounds is good enough to get through most armour and with an rof of 12+ you can do some serious damage pretty fast.

You can also fire on the move very accurately.

 

Its probably the weakest heavy in its tier when it comes to speed gun pen and damage but its not a bad tank I kept mine.



mikesalt #3 Posted 16 May 2016 - 12:24 AM

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Its crap, even if you get one of those rare top tier games there will be 3 big artys rubbing their sticky little hands together when they see a BP on the enemy team. Put simply, if it was a Russian tank it'd be a tier lower.

Laatikkomafia #4 Posted 16 May 2016 - 03:33 AM

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View Postphiljd, on 15 May 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

I am getting a bit cheesed off with this tank (I am nowhere near 'good' at tanking). BUT a T7 heavy should be able to be a 'tank' in at least some situations, this one doesn't seem to be able to cope with anything.

 

Yes I could LTP better, but lets look at the alternatives:-

1) IS - good gun, decent mobility and decent armour

2) T29 - hull down king

3) Tiger - DPM master with very good turret and lots of HP. Excellent gun.

4) AMX M4 (45) - pretty mobile with decent gun

5) T7 Jap - no idea about this one.

 

*Mutters in frustration* - and yes, I do get my '[edited]' handed to me far too often in this thing :p

 


Let's see..

Your DPM is better than O-Ni, and the AMX (w/ the 90mm).
Your accuracy is as good as Tiger I's.
Your aiming time is as good as T29's.
Your gun depression is actually quite high (8 degrees)
Your hull armor is only beaten by the T29's UFP.
Your turret armor is only beaten by the T29.
Your view range is only 10m less than T29, O-Ni and Tiger I, 10m higher than IS and AMX.

Black Prince isn't bad, it just tend to be average in everything.
The only real downside is the poor mobility. But hey, you must have gotten used to it after the Churchill VII :P.

Offtopic: Since when the Tiger I's turret has been good? You can penetrate it with a T6 MT..


Edited by Laatikkomafia, 16 May 2016 - 03:33 AM.


philjd #5 Posted 16 May 2016 - 09:11 AM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 16 May 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:


Offtopic: Since when the Tiger I's turret has been good? You can penetrate it with a T6 MT..

Turret front - the mantlett is large and effective - unless that has changed, it's been a while since I looked at the German heavy line (plus I come and go in the game so might have missed something)?



SWAT0013 #6 Posted 16 May 2016 - 12:00 PM

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In my opinion this tank needs only one thing - limited MM. In T7 this tank is quite good, in T8 it is mostly still usable but struggles really hard in T9 matches since you do not have anything....

I quite enjoyed my final sessions with this tank in order to get Caern, I guess if T7s would not suck so much with MM (really luck dependant, sometimes you are always top tier, sometimes you play as only T7 tank in both teams 5 games in a row...) and if I would have spare crew I would keep this tank



steview162 #7 Posted 16 May 2016 - 02:26 PM

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It needs the 20pdr A. Every other same tier tank gets a tier 8? gun, except the BP. WG say this is because if the superior armour. I say keek to this. The armour is 152mm flat on the front, which is only effective angled. The turret was nerfed, I believe the mantlet was made smaller. The T29 has a virtually impenetrable turret front, and decent hull if angled, yet gets the T9 gun. 

Consistent balancing at its best. Just my tuppence worth.

I still like the BP, it is a keeper. But, the gun, the armour AND the speed make it a hard tank to love.



Laatikkomafia #8 Posted 17 May 2016 - 01:23 AM

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View Poststeview162, on 16 May 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

It needs the 20pdr A. Every other same tier tank gets a tier 8? gun, except the BP. WG say this is because if the superior armour. I say keek to this. The armour is 152mm flat on the front, which is only effective angled. The turret was nerfed, I believe the mantlet was made smaller. The T29 has a virtually impenetrable turret front, and decent hull if angled, yet gets the T9 gun. 

Consistent balancing at its best. Just my tuppence worth.

I still like the BP, it is a keeper. But, the gun, the armour AND the speed make it a hard tank to love.

 

Challenger :P

The_Foolio #9 Posted 17 May 2016 - 09:04 AM

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A tiny bit of extra alpha wouldn't go amiss, other than that it's fine.

 

Aimed at no one in particular, but this applies to all tanks other than those which are total crap and uncompetitive, if you don't like it then don't play it.



philjd #10 Posted 17 May 2016 - 10:08 AM

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View PostThe_Foolio, on 17 May 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

 if you don't like it then don't play it.

 

With respect, this is somewhat naive - you don't know if you will like a tank until you have driven it, plus, if you want to progress up a particular tree, then the tanks that you dislike have to be played. Also, there is a huge difference between 'liking' a tank and how it 'works' in game - I quite liked both Churchills, and enjoyed playing them, mostly, frustrating at times, both tank wise and also 'me-wise' just plain getting it wrong. But with the BP, I have yet to have one of those "ahh, this is what this tank is all about" moments. EG, The FV4202 (P), I am thoroughly enjoying this tank, although most people seem to rate it as rubbish, whereas I find it can be both fun and effective.

 

I understand that players can, if they wish to spend cash to do so, free-xp through a tank (which I have done to avoid bothering with having to play some of the lower tier tanks (1-3), but once you get T6+ then it requires a lot of free-xp to do so, and while I am happy to pay WG for the odd tank and also premium time, big chunks of free-xp to avoid a tank that may not be 'fit for purpose', is profiteering on their behalf, which I will not indulge in.

 

[edit- typo]


Edited by philjd, 17 May 2016 - 10:09 AM.


steview162 #11 Posted 17 May 2016 - 10:23 AM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 17 May 2016 - 12:23 AM, said:

 

Challenger :P

 

I stand corrected. I also forgot about the AT15 only getting a tier 9 gun as well. Russians seem to not like british, we cry ourselves to sleep.

Eokokok #12 Posted 17 May 2016 - 10:36 AM

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View PostLaatikkomafia, on 16 May 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

Your hull armor is only beaten by the T29's UFP.

 

This would be true if not for the hitbox model on the tank, from what I've seen shooting ot ones you can easily pen, track and damage the tanks with the shots on the front sprocket. And I do mean frontal shots, not crossing the tracks into the hull. Not sure if this is intentional or not, but as it is 175 pen or more will track you and do damage at the same time. Tiger for instance can melt BP if it gets the even part of the frontal wheel sticking out of the cover.

MR_FIAT #13 Posted 17 May 2016 - 11:33 AM

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it needs way faster rate of fire,  as it is now it has very poor DPM coupled with mediocre pen and dismall alpha makes it the worst gun of all tier 7 heavies.

The_Foolio #14 Posted 17 May 2016 - 11:47 AM

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View Postphiljd, on 17 May 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

 

With respect, this is somewhat naive - you don't know if you will like a tank until you have driven it, plus, if you want to progress up a particular tree, then the tanks that you dislike have to be played. Also, there is a huge difference between 'liking' a tank and how it 'works' in game - I quite liked both Churchills, and enjoyed playing them, mostly, frustrating at times, both tank wise and also 'me-wise' just plain getting it wrong. But with the BP, I have yet to have one of those "ahh, this is what this tank is all about" moments. EG, The FV4202 (P), I am thoroughly enjoying this tank, although most people seem to rate it as rubbish, whereas I find it can be both fun and effective.

 

I understand that players can, if they wish to spend cash to do so, free-xp through a tank (which I have done to avoid bothering with having to play some of the lower tier tanks (1-3), but once you get T6+ then it requires a lot of free-xp to do so, and while I am happy to pay WG for the odd tank and also premium time, big chunks of free-xp to avoid a tank that may not be 'fit for purpose', is profiteering on their behalf, which I will not indulge in.

 

[edit- typo]

 

 

I was talking in broad brushstrokes and from a game enjoyment and mental health point of view. The same could be applied to the game as a whole.

 

Believe me I know all about frustration as probably 75% of my games are in British tanks. Funnily enough I've just re-bought both Churchill I and VII. I too quite like the FV4202(P), even though by most measures it's crap when compared to other tanks. Many people would say that the tanks I drive are crap - Churchill Gun Carrier/FV4202(P)/FV4005 II - and that other tanks are much better. However, I enjoy driving them and have no wish to drive other tanks just because they are "better".

 

I've come to the conclusion that if I am truly hating the experience of driving a tank then no tank further down the tree is worth it. Every now and again I lapse back into to the "I really want X tank" mind-set and start grinding again. Shortly followed by the sale of the tanks I had just bought to grind through once I realise that I'm not enjoying the experience.

 

I have limited amount of time to play, so all I'm saying is that I'm not willing to play 100 games in a tank in the hope that at some point I will "get it" and start enjoying it or finish the grind.

 

/edit: Oh and I love the BP :teethhappy:

 


Edited by The_Foolio, 17 May 2016 - 11:48 AM.


Nathaniak #15 Posted 17 May 2016 - 02:43 PM

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I recently unlocked the Black Prince, and have been playing it on and off (mostly off) because it doesn't seem to work for me. I think the fundamental problem is the low alpha - you need to get 9 or 10 shots in to make up for your hit points. Compare this to the T29, which only needs 4 shots to make up its hit points. Add to that the difficulties caused by your rubbish speed/maneuverabiliy and you can see where the problems arise. You need to expose yourself a lot to get that many shots off, and because you're big, squishy and easily tracked this is a great way to turn yourself itnto an xp piñata. I honestly prefered the VII, because that felt more capable of holding its own against same-tier vehicles.

Edited by Nathaniak, 23 May 2016 - 06:02 PM.


roachex #16 Posted 18 May 2016 - 10:56 AM

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Well for me pen for ap round feels too low. BP slowly lumbers, can fight medium tanks only if they engage you. Against armored heavies, it is hard to hit weakspots even. IS can pick a HE shell and fight, but BP caliber is too small for that. Against ignorant heavy players it is great. But at tier 8 & 9 this number diminishes quickly. If you need around 20 APCR to work with this tank, than pay to win. Not a keeper for me, as I dont like rely on apcr.

thestaggy #17 Posted 06 June 2016 - 07:16 AM

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All 3 Churchills need a buff, primarily in terms of firepower and mobility.

 

Remove the Churchill I from the tree and replace it with a Churchill IV variant

 

Buff #1 - Firepower

Churchill IV: Starts off with a 6-pounder, removing the painful 2-pdr grind. Top gun becomes the 77 mm gun found on the Churchill VII. 

Churchill VII: 77 mm gun is stock, top gun becomes the 17-pdr found on the Black Prince.

Black Prince: 17-pdr is stock. Give it a 32-pdr top gun with 180 pen and 250 alpha. Using the 3.7 inch AA gun as a basis, the 32-pdr was in development as a replacement for the 17-pdr as the primary British tank and anti-tank gun, so this isn't pure fantasy. The gun will obviously have reduced handling and ballistics over the 17-pdr, but now the tank actually gets a gun that can put some alpha out.

 

Buff #2 - Mobility

All 3 Churchills need to have their terrain resistances buffed and a universal top-speed of 24 - 26 km/h. They can be the slowest but it should be that they maintain these speeds almost constantly. This can somewhat replicate their mountain goat-like terrain-crossing abilities.

 

The Japanese heavies broke the realism and accuracy argument as they are pure fantasy, so there can be no argument against artificially buffing the Churchills.


Edited by thestaggy, 06 June 2016 - 07:24 AM.


The_Foolio #18 Posted 06 June 2016 - 09:45 AM

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I can't quote because of my phone, but I disagree entirely. That is a slippery slope indeed and I don't want to be on it.

thestaggy #19 Posted 06 June 2016 - 02:37 PM

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View PostThe_Foolio, on 06 June 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

I can't quote because of my phone, but I disagree entirely. That is a slippery slope indeed and I don't want to be on it.

 

You're not making them OP, not even close, just making them less shite.

 

Those ''buffs'' still leave them as the slowest tanks with guns that are at best middle of the park. 

 

 

 



The_Foolio #20 Posted 06 June 2016 - 04:23 PM

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View Postthestaggy, on 06 June 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

 

You're not making them OP, not even close, just making them less shite.

 

Those ''buffs'' still leave them as the slowest tanks with guns that are at best middle of the park. 

 

 

I'd just prefer buffs/nerfs via the hard and soft stats rather than a made-up tank arms race.







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