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Is Rheimetall Skoprion G overpowered?

German tank destroyer skorpion scorpion rheimetall

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Poll: What do you think about Skorpion G? (250 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battle in order to participate this poll.

If you have the Skorpion, what is your opinion about it?

  1. Excellent (105 votes [42.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.00%

  2. Voted Good (94 votes [37.60%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 37.60%

  3. Average (31 votes [12.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.40%

  4. Bad (8 votes [3.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.20%

  5. Complete trash (12 votes [4.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.80%

If you do NOT have the vehicle but have seen it in battle or it's statistics, what is your opinion about it?

  1. Excellent (113 votes [45.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 45.20%

  2. Voted Good (88 votes [35.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.20%

  3. Average (34 votes [13.60%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.60%

  4. Bad (8 votes [3.20%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.20%

  5. Complete trash (7 votes [2.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 2.80%

Do you think it is too good for a premium tank which can be only bought using real money??

  1. Yes (121 votes [48.40%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 48.40%

  2. Voted No (129 votes [51.60%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 51.60%

Do you think it shoud be rebalanced?

  1. Voted No, it is completely balanced (82 votes [32.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.80%

  2. Yes, it really needs buff (34 votes [13.60%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 13.60%

  3. Yes, it should be nerfed (82 votes [32.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 32.80%

  4. No, it should stay the same, but never sell it again like E25 (52 votes [20.80%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.80%

Do you think is good for Skorpion, which is a premium tank, to be better than other tanks like Charioteer, M4A1 Revalorise and many others on tier 8?

  1. No, Skorpion should not be better than these tanks (99 votes [42.86%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.86%

  2. Yes, is ok for the Skorpion to be better than these tanks (39 votes [16.88%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 16.88%

  3. The Skorpion is balanced compared to these tanks (93 votes [40.26%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.26%

Vote Hide poll

FireStickCZ #1 Posted 29 August 2016 - 11:28 AM

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Hello tankers, I want to analyze the Skorpion G in detail and get into conclusion if it is truly overpowered on not.

(Sorry for bad English :D)

 

Why is Skorpion G OP: https://clips.twitch...nogItsBoshyTime

 

 

Ok, lets start with its statistics (for current version 9.15.1):

 

Gun performance:

 

490 alpha damage - Pretty standard for a t8 german TD, but it is still higher than other same TDs (not ISU though) and WAY HIGHER than same tier tanks. You can actually outtrade same tier heavy tanks, tier 10 medium tanks and even some tier 10 heavy tanks. Also, this is the highest alpha damage on any premium tank.

 

2409,84 DPM - Not the highest damage per minute for a tier 8 TD, but it is the highest DPM on any tier 8 premium tank (excluding JagdTiger 8.8)

With this DPM you can still wreck tier 8s and some tier 9s too.

 

246 mm of penetration - Very high, can easily go though tier 8s, good enough to penertrate even tier 10 heavy tanks in weakspots.

It is the highest penetration on any premium tank (with T34).

 

0.29 accuracy - This is pretty sick, the best accuracy of any tank in the game?!

Why should is have better accuracy than Rhm. Borsig (0.34) or any sniper tank with even smaller gun? (Panther 2 - 0.33)

This makes no sense to me, also it is the best accuracy on any premium tank.

It has 2s aiming time, again it is very good. About its gun handling, it is standard for a TD, which is not good enough for snaphots, but thanks to great accuracy and aim time it takes only 1-2 seconds to stop, aim for shot and retreat.

 

Overall the gun is very good. The DPM is not as high as other TDs, but the insane accuracy makes for it, you can consistently damage by hit all your shots, Also it has fully traverse-able turret and 7 degrees of gun depresion (which is much better than Rhm. Bosig or Charioteer and same as M4A1 Revalorise, while having much better gun than them!).

This is the best gun on any premium tank in the game. With its high penetration and accuracy you can reliably hit and penetrate enemy. With high alpha, you can do damage very easily and make a lot of credits. The gun is way too good for a PREMIUM TANK.

 

Tank performance:

 

14 mm of turret armor, 30 mm of hull armor - Well, it is RHEIMETALL, what did you expect? It is very dangerous to fight against derp guns (T49, KV-2, japanese heavies) and artillery. However, some other tier 8s also have almost no armor (Charioteer, AMX CDC, STA-2...) so it is not unique handicap. As I mentioned earlier, it has very high alpha and can outtrade its oppoments, so no armor does not really matter unless they fire HE.

 

60 km/h speed - This is incredibly fast! You can actually outrun most medium tanks and make them look really silly. The power/weight ration is good and terrain resistance too.

It also has 20 km/h reverse speed, which is much better than other TDs, it allows you to poke, shoot and quickly retreat. The turning speed is not very good, but again it is very good for a TD, and it has a turret too!

 

Camo rating - I do not know about its exact camo rating, but from what I have heard it is below average, but still compare able to some medium tanks, especialy camo while moving. It should be enough to "camp bush" and snipe, but is not reliable for a TD.

 

360 m view range - That is pretty bad view range, if you go into open space medium tanks will definetely outspot you and kill you.

 

417 m radio range - What? Does anyone even care about radio?

 

Conclusion: 

The tank has a very bad armor, below average camo and bad view range, but is incredibly fast and has very, VERY GOOD gun.

 

With this tank you can actually play like a medium tank with a really big gun. Thanks to its speed, it can get into dominant positions quickly and suprise enemy. It has fully traverse-able turret, which turns quite slowly, but will allow you to poke around the corners. Its gun depresion is also good, compared to other TDs. Its gun has high alpha, high penetration, high DPM and insane accuracy, something that other FAST tanks definetely do not have.

However, it should not brawl like mediums as the armor is trash, but peek-a-boom tactic is still possible. You can flank enemy in urban enviroment, but in open area it will get out spoted and killed very quickly.

 

Rheinmetall Skorpion is an above average TD, but overpowered medium if the mobility is used correctly.

But there is another big problem with it: it is a PREMIUM TANK.

 

Please write your opinions below, I would like to see what you guys think :)

 

Comparision to tanks with same playstyle:

 

I saw some Youtube comments in Skorpion reviews and lot of people compare this to the OLD Hellcat before it was nerfed. I never played it, but I have currently 2 marks of excelence on the NEW Hellcat, so I understand how much OP the OLD Hellcat was.

But the Skorpion is not really the same tank: Hellcat does not have enough alpha to outrade heavy tanks, also its penetration is weak so it struggles when bottom tier. However, Hellcat has very good camo rating and view range tier-for-tier. Skorpion has tier-for-tier better gun while sacrificing camo.

 

I would compare it to Grille 15. Both have very accurate, fast firing gun with high alpha, both are incredibly fast while not having the greatest camo rating. However, the Grille 15 has limited gun arc, while Skorpion has fully traverse-able turret, so it can actually effectvely poke around corners like a medium tank would, unlike the Grille 15...

 

Your feedback so far on my post:

 

1) Most of you were asking, why do I compare Skorpion to medium tank? Well, the Skorpion's speed is on par with mediums.

Medium tanks have the mobility advantage over other classes, so they can use it flank enemies or move between sides of the map. However if a TD with a big gun can do that too, then what is the point of playing mediums?

 

2) There were some players saying, that Skorpion requires skill to play. Here is my argument:

 

http://forum.worldof...7#entry13164007

View PostRadu_Korne, on 27 September 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

I went north on El Halluf in my IS-3, I was the first tank that got there. Poked a bit to snap shot and bam, 600 hp gone from a tomato Skorpion G player that had:

 

1. speed to get there first

2. a big gun that didn't require precision aiming at my hull

3. no brain, since he died afterwards easily.

 

See? This is what I am talking about, Even if Skorpion is played by an absolute noob, the Skorpion's gun will always grant him at least 490 average damage per battle. Sure, he will most likely die right afterwards, but you have lost 500 HP and you can do nothing about it.

 

Now some statistics that I found on www.vbaddict.net (data from 26-27 September 2016):

 

1.png

The Skorpion is so damn popular, that it is more played than the glorious IS-3!

3.png4.png

The Skorpion also has the most damage dealt and kills per battle of any tier 8 tank (excluding gift tanks for clan wars)

 

These are the facts, this is probaly the best premium tank of this year.

(Edit: Patriot, Liberte or Object 252U might be better now in 9.17.1)

 

Wargaming nerfed the Grille 15 in 9.17.1 because it could use its speed to get into position, quickly aim its gun and than shoot into enemy for massive alpha while they could do nothing about it.

Skorpion G can cause the exactly same problems as Grille 15. Not mentioning that Skorpion has fully traverseable turret. It NEEDS to be nerfed too.

 

Spoiler

Edited by FireStickCZ, 06 August 2017 - 02:33 PM.


MR_FIAT #2 Posted 29 August 2016 - 11:32 AM

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also its realy fast, however its made from paper so any HE shell will penn it but that doesnt take away thatvit powercreeps other tier 8 TDs by quite a margin. 

Eokokok #3 Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:19 PM

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It probably is OP, but since it is also high skill cap tonk to use it stats won't really be as terribly showing its opness with all the reddies running in their Scorpions...

 

The mobility, gun and depression mixed with rapid aim time and good accuracy make it pretty much what Hellcat was. At the moment it is by far the best premium in the game with insane earning potiential, also - retarded bundle, so I won't get one.



FireStickCZ #4 Posted 29 August 2016 - 12:40 PM

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View PostEokokok, on 29 August 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

It probably is OP, but since it is also high skill cap tonk to use it stats won't really be as terribly showing its opness with all the reddies running in their Scorpions...

 

I dont think it has high skill cap. For exaple, compare it to AMX CDC, both are tanks with bad armor.

CDC shoot 2 times - does only 480 damage, Skorpion shoots 2 times - does 980 damage.

See? CDC needs skill to be played well, while with Skopion you just camp and snipe or drive closer and shoot enemy in the face. Its gun is so good, that even the biggest noobs will have 490 average damage with only ONE SHOT...



Eokokok #5 Posted 29 August 2016 - 02:32 PM

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CDC is a tier 8 medium - tier 7/8 are land where mediums are just meh, every single one of them, just meh.

 

Both have high skill cap, still, the stats for Scorpion will be bad because it is a hard tank to play on general basis of being armourless and really fast, perfect for noobs to run into massive problems. And with camping, well, Borsig can already do that better.



tnk_x5000 #6 Posted 29 August 2016 - 03:23 PM

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Being able to get to a sniping position in advance is enough to compensate for the camo. Being able to hit targets reliably at longer ranges is also enough to compensate for the camo.

Also, most noobs like to camp.

 

For now I have not noticed the Skorpion to be OP against me. But I can say the same for the Rhm. Borsig. However, I do believe the Skorpion to be the better tank in the long run, because of three reasons: 0.3 base accuracy, HE resistant hull and extra mobility. I won't be surprised if they try to nerf it.

Also, admit it, it would have been called borderline OP if it was added as a soviet tank.



grey_area #7 Posted 30 August 2016 - 01:58 PM

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VB Addict stats as at 30 August 2016. Based on T8 TDs all nations. Last 30 days. Skorpion rankings as follows. Def not OP in any way!!!

Battles - 1st (890,000 battles, nearly twice that of second place Borsig)

Damage dealt  - 1st

DPM - 1st

Exp earned - 1st

Exp per min - 1st

Kills per battle - 1st

WN7 - 1st

Battle rating - 1st

Winrate - 2nd

 



FireStickCZ #8 Posted 30 August 2016 - 04:43 PM

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View Postgrey_area, on 30 August 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

VB Addict stats as at 30 August 2016. Based on T8 TDs all nations. Last 30 days. Skorpion rankings as follows. Def not OP in any way!!!

Battles - 1st (890,000 battles, nearly twice that of second place Borsig)

Damage dealt  - 1st

DPM - 1st

Exp earned - 1st

Exp per min - 1st

Kills per battle - 1st

WN7 - 1st

Battle rating - 1st

Winrate - 2nd

 

Wow, that is quite interesting. Lets look at the vBAddict stats of Kanonenjagdpanzer, the other german premium tank:

 

Damage dealt  - Last place

DPM - Last place

Damage ratio - Last place

Kills per battle - Almost last place

Survivability - Last place

Frequency of occurrence - Last place

Winrate - Last place

 

Yep, very balanced

 


Edited by FireStickCZ, 30 August 2016 - 09:52 PM.


FireStickCZ #9 Posted 30 August 2016 - 05:03 PM

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Actually, lets compare the Kanonenjagdpanzer vs. Rheimetall Skorpion G

 

Alpha damage - 240 vs 490

DPM - 2383 vs 2409

Penetration - 238 vs 246

Accuracy - 0.31 vs 0.29

 

So Skorpion has 2x better alpha damage AND better DPM, also has higher penetreation and even though the gun is bigger, it is more accurate (and has better dispersion after firing)!!!

But the most important is the fact, that Kanonenjagpanzer has limited gun arc, while Skorpion has fully traverse-able turret!

 

The ONLY advantage Kanonenjagdpanzer has is slightly better gun handling while moving, is a little bit faster and has better camo.

 


Edited by FireStickCZ, 30 August 2016 - 09:52 PM.


DeltaOperator #10 Posted 31 August 2016 - 02:37 AM

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Kanonenenjagdpanzer is indeed useless, but that was already known before.

Edited by DeltaOperator, 31 August 2016 - 02:38 AM.


grey_area #11 Posted 31 August 2016 - 09:55 AM

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View PostFireStickCZ, on 30 August 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

 

Wow, that is quite interesting. Lets look at the vBAddict stats of Kanonenjagdpanzer, the other german premium tank:

 

Damage dealt  - Last place

DPM - Last place

Damage ratio - Last place

Kills per battle - Almost last place

Survivability - Last place

Frequency of occurrence - Last place

Winrate - Last place

 

Yep, very balanced

 

 

WG balance theory: get users to pay for one crap prem German TD then a few months later balance it out by geting users to pay for the most OP prem German TD. Crap + OP = balance + revenue

Jesha #12 Posted 31 August 2016 - 12:55 PM

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I wouldn't really use VBAddict data here, because it is after all mostly used by green and above players.

DeltaOperator #13 Posted 01 September 2016 - 12:54 AM

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With that in mind, what data would you use?

Finlander #14 Posted 01 September 2016 - 05:03 AM

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wolfman292 #15 Posted 01 September 2016 - 12:02 PM

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Well it is a WG fantasy tank so just like the Jap HT's from tier 7 onwards was bound to be OP. And by the way I have no inclination to get either especially the Skorpion. The stats do say it is OP just like a certain other German TD that had to be withdrawn from sale, I can see the same happening with this one as well.

sutyomatic #16 Posted 02 September 2016 - 12:45 PM

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View PostFireStickCZ, on 30 August 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

Actually, lets compare the Kanonenjagdpanzer vs. Rheimetall Skorpion G

 

Alpha damage - 240 vs 490

DPM - 2383 vs 2409

Penetration - 238 vs 246

Accuracy - 0.31 vs 0.29

 

So Skorpion has 2x better alpha damage AND better DPM, also has higher penetreation and even though the gun is bigger, it is more accurate (and has better dispersion after firing)!!!

But the most important is the fact, that Kanonenjagpanzer has limited gun arc, while Skorpion has fully traverse-able turret!

 

The ONLY advantage Kanonenjagdpanzer has is slightly better gun handling while moving, is a little bit faster and has better camo.

 

 

That KaJaPa was crap when it was on PTS, and it wasn't buffed when it went into the stores, just months after and they didn't buff it enough. That thing would need at least 2800DPM to be relevant with the 240 alpha dmg, since you cant out-trade or out damage a same tier medium tank.

 

Better players probably never bought it, since they saw a mile away that it is utter rubbish for the money. I personally wouldn't poke it with 10ft pole, and I think even the Panther 8.8 being a medium tank is a better TD compared to the KanonenjagTURD.



keyres #17 Posted 23 September 2016 - 12:11 AM

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View PostFireStickCZ, on 29 August 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

490 alpha damage - Pretty standard for a t8 german TD, but it is still higher than other same TDs (not ISU though) and WAY HIGHER than same tier tanks. You can actually outtrade same tier heavy tanks, tier 10 medium tanks and even some tier 10 heavy tanks. Also, this is the highest alpha damage on any premium tank.

 

2409,84 DPM - Not the highest damage per minute for a tier 8 TD, but it is the highest DPM on any premium tank.

With this DPM you can still wreck tier 8s and some tier 9s too.

 

246 mm of penetration - Very high, can easily go though tier 8s, good enough to penertrate even tier 10 heavy tanks in weakspots.

It is the highest penetration on any premium tank (with T34).

 

0.29 accuracy - This is pretty sick, the best accuracy of any tank in the game?!

Why should is have better accuracy than Rhm. Borsig (0.34) or any sniper tank with even smaller gun? (Panther 2 - 0.33)

This makes no sense to me, also it is the best accuracy on any premium tank.

It has 2s aiming time, again it is very good. About its gun handling, it is standard for a t8 TD.

 

Overall the gun is very good. The DPM is not as high as other TDs, but the insane accuracy makes for it, Also it has fully traverse-able turret and 7 degrees of gun depresion (which is much better than Rhm. Bosig or Charioteer).

This is the best gun on any premium tank in the game. With its high penetration and accuracy you can reliably hit and penetrate enemy. With high alpha, you can do damage very easily and make a lot of credits. The gun is WAY TOO GOOD for a premium tank.

 

*Puts on nitpicking glasses*

Well, by raw DPM, SU-122-44 is still the best premium (3k DPM... at tier 7), and SU-100Y has got an AP shell with 510 alpha making it the highest alpha premium in game.

 

On a more serious note, Skorpion G is powercreeping the hell out of so many tanks right now. But since WG prefers to avoid nerfing premium tanks, it's a bit late now...



suvicze #18 Posted 24 September 2016 - 02:40 AM

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View Postwolfman292, on 01 September 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Well it is a WG fantasy tank so just like the Jap HT's from tier 7 onwards was bound to be OP. And by the way I have no inclination to get either especially the Skorpion. The stats do say it is OP just like a certain other German TD that had to be withdrawn from sale, I can see the same happening with this one as well.

 

Nah I bet they are just waiting to put it back in one of those "rare tank" bundles like pzJ and that stupidly OP arty which shoots faster than regular tanks...for like 100 euros to make big bucks....:D Not to mention it would be bad for business to not put scorpion on sale again.. People now experienced how OP it is so those who didnt buy it will probably do so now and I dont really know wg to be a company which wouldnt make use of such great opportunity to make money + I dont think they will nerf it either, sand box changes are not that far away in wg time frame where simple change takes 2 years and as was said, we already have completely useless german td so they just balanced it out this way.

Edited by suvicze, 24 September 2016 - 02:41 AM.


clixor #19 Posted 24 September 2016 - 10:59 AM

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View Postsutyomatic, on 02 September 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

 

That KaJaPa was crap when it was on PTS, and it wasn't buffed when it went into the stores, just months after and they didn't buff it enough. That thing would need at least 2800DPM to be relevant with the 240 alpha dmg, since you cant out-trade or out damage a same tier medium tank.

 

Better players probably never bought it, since they saw a mile away that it is utter rubbish for the money. I personally wouldn't poke it with 10ft pole, and I think even the Panther 8.8 being a medium tank is a better TD compared to the KanonenjagTURD.

 

The problem with kajapa was more that, unlike the e-25 at tier7, you don't really can't exploit your viewrange/camo advantage (because at tier8+ the viewranges increase significantly and players also start to have better crews). So with the kajapa you are, in most cases, spotted after you fired, and you have to get into cover so can't really utilize your DPM. The Skorpion however has enough alpha to really give a ninja-punch to someone. 

Marlekin #20 Posted 24 September 2016 - 12:55 PM

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Really? OP, atleast get the name right in your topic title, will you? :D

 

Anyway, if you watched the Developers Panel video from some days ago, you will have noticed that the NA Lead Producer talked about taking a new direction regarding premium tanks. (Its around 1:00:45 where he talks about it). The Skorpion is being made example of how WG wants to build premiums in the future: 

 

- A premium should perform really well in the hands of a good player

- A premium should not be too strong

 

Lets check out how vbaddict stats hold up against these new guidelines that WG set out by comparing the Skorpion to a few other tier 8 TD's: The Charioteer, Rhm, and Jpanther II.

 

Winrate:

Skorpion G - 50,63%

Charioteer - 48,80%

Rhm - 49,20%

Jpanther II - 48,29%

 

Damage dealt:

Skorpion G - 1410 

Charioteer - 1207

Rhm - 1257

Jpanther II - 1108

 

Survival rate: 

Skorpion G - 39,63%

Charioteer - 36,44%

Rhm - 46,95%

Jpanther II - 38,08%

 

Overpowered, yay or ney? 

As we can see its pretty damned obvious that players using the Skorpion tend to deal more damage, win more games, but doesnt really tend to survive more than another TD would. Looking at this I'd say the Skorpion G is currently outperforming other TD's. It has an advantage over every other TD here: The Charioteer doesnt have the gun handling, the Rhm lacks the mobility, and the JpantherII lacks a turret. I think the vehicle's speed and turret give it much more flexibility over other TD's, combined with a good gun with nice handling that is easily applied to enemy targets. With a Skorpion it seems to be easier to get yourself into a position to deal damage, and I guess this is why it deals a bit more damage compared to the others, and in my experience: dealing more damage wins games. But yet, as the survival rate points out, a Skorpion can be easily killed. So while the vehicle is outperforming the other TD's on its tier, I dont think the vehicle is really that much more powerfull than its peers. 

 

Older premiums

What I really dont like at this point is how the Skorpion makes older premiums obsolete. Unless you're training crew, whats the point of using something like an M4 Rev, ISU-122s, or Panther II? The Skorpion G outshines them all. Even when it comes to creditfarming, the Skorpion is right up there in the top 5 tanks with best net profit. I really hope that sooner or later, WG will apply the two guidelines to older premium tanks and give these some love. 

 

This all being said, I did buy my Skorpion today. This one's too good to pass up a second time. 

 

 







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