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bojan, you are probably just a very good player. Others, such as sparrow_, have real trouble winning with Pershing (36% winrate) and have much better results with Type-59 (54%).

If you had Type-59 you would have even better results with Type-59 than with Pershing.

And new patch is only going to buff Type-59 and nerf Pershing due to new HE and armor normalization changes.

Pershing and Panther II are fine on live, with the Pershing being narrowly the best. T-44 needs a bit of a buff, I agree. I own the other two and they are both more of a threat than the T-44. I am concerned that they have over done the T-44 buff and the Panther II nerf to ammo rack hp is unnecessary, but lets see how it turns out on release.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

If you're the type of player who only pushes forward and uses mediums as fast heavies, then you will do better with a Type 59. It bounces stuff. Once you have committed in a Type 59 you can't get out again. In a Pershing you can and should get out. You can out pace any of the heavies around a building in reverse. They are completely different playstyles in my opinion. However, it seems that all the Tier 8 mediums are fairly closely matched at the moment

Results for each tank for all players since Alpha :-

Tank				  Players   Battles   Battles per Owner   Win Rate
M26 Pershing		   10704	2189170		205			 52.86% 
Type 59				17704	2652804		150			 52.50% 
Panther II			 18732	3701353		198			 51.79% 
T-44				   17734	3787768		214			 51.42%

You can see that the Pershing is currently top and T44 bottom, but not a huge difference. Panther II will also include battles for Panther I before they were switched, so Panther II maybe considerably better than the stats suggest. Pershing will include stats for the old Tier 8 T23 US med as well.

Also stats for all players with a minimum of 150 battles in the tank show much the same result :-

Tank				  Players   Battles   Battles per Owner   Win Rate
M26 Pershing			6159		1856116	   301		 52.86% 
Type 59				 6659		1905295	   286		 52.79% 
Panther II			 10530		3091967	   294		 51.75% 
T-44				   10986		3270651	   298		 51.49%

Thanks to Snib for preparing the stats.

Actually, Pershings are just usually played by better players, and the data by Snip supports the theory that Type-59 is OP.

Look at the stats:

TANK				WIN_RATIO		  CLASS_TIER_WR		OGRES_OVERPOWERED_COEF
Type 59			 55.38%			  52.01%			  +3.37%
M26 Pershing		54.34%			  53.88%			  +0.46%

Look at the difference between wr and class_tier_wr (what I call OGRES_OVERPOWERED_COEF). That is what matters most.

In addition, Snibs stats are old. He needs to do another snapshot and see what are the real stats in 0.6.7.

Furthermore, what matters now is 0.7 and this is where the US tanks were nerfed heavily by HE and armor normalization adjustments. You have conveniently ignored that point completely.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 12:46 PM, said:

I haven't 'conveniently ignored' anything. I have no point to prove here. I don't have a Type 59 or a T-44. The stats you quote are for players that own more than one Tier 8 medium and you didn't show the complete list, so here it is.

TANK				PLAYERS	 BATTLES	  BpO		   WIN_RATIO		  CLASS_TIER_WR		  GLOBAL_WR 
Type 59				 6228	 1475666	 237			 55.38%			  52.01%			  50.68% 
M26 Pershing			4263	 1094861	 257			 54.34%			  53.88%			  51.66% 
Panther II			  7055	 1642464	 233			 52.73%			  53.89%			  51.37% 
T-44					6613	 1649963	 250			 52.16%			  54.12%			  51.35% 

It does seem that Type 59s are played by worse players than other T8 medium players. What isn't taken into account is the upgrading of regular tanks from stock or the fact that the Type 59 gets better matchmaking (Tier 9+10 battles versus Tier 9+10+11 for regular T8 mediums). Overall, I think the Type 59 is a bit OP too for a premium, but it should just have regular matchmaking to level it out.

Anyway, sorry for off-topic. The T-44 will get a new better gun and it probably deserves it.

I don't beleive it will have much impact on the game.

Maybe as you dont need the rammer anymore you may go for cyclone filter or wet ammo rack or some other module,  ................................... but at the end T-59 will kill you.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

I have tried it on test last time, result was 51%. It was also quite sluggish in initial acceleration, which is a death of medium. Basically, Pershing is real medium, Panther is medium sniper, Type is medium-heavy, T-44 is crap. Think my stats for those tanks show it well. Played all of them, liked Pershing most and was never afraid of any other t8 med (or even stock t9 meds).

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1. You don;t need to use HE with Pershing except very few tanks. I usually fired ~90% AP.
2. Gain due the new normalization to Type59 glacis is whole 3mm, so quite irrelevant.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 12:46 PM, said:

  
If you relied on HE with US medium tanks you were doing it very, very wrong.

 bojan, on 28 November 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

You are completely missing my point about HE. I'm almost never using HE when in US meds beyond M4 Sherman/Jumbo (which btw should be played with HE only, and now are completely ruined).

When I'm in my E-50 or Type-59 I'm getting HE-d all the time by all the small tanks, and they cause damage and critical hits, etc. With the new patch, a lot of these hits will do zero damage.

However, against my Pershing and Patton they will just use AP and do full damage.

Do you understand now?

Rollup said:

BTW I have or have had all four tier 8 mediums, so I can be quite impartial here too.

 bojan, on 28 November 2011 - 02:22 PM, said:

You cannot judge by a few battles in test, and you can use octane or removed rev limiter on the Type-59 and it becomes fast enough.

The fact remains - even complete noobs can win with Type-59, but Pershing is made of paper so that below average players fail with it completely. Which means Type-59 is OP.

But really I think this discussion belongs in the "Type-59 is OP" thread.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

I wasn't suggesting you were biased. I was only telling you that it is wrong to assume that I am. Read back your post and I hope you will see that you were overly aggressive.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

This is flawed logic. Being easier to play does not mean the same thing as overpowered. I don't really care that bad players can't play the Pershing as well as they can the Type 59. I just want a tank that is better if played properly. If players want an easy game there are countless Warcraft and clone games for them to play, or even single player games where they are designed to win everytime. I like to play tanks that are capable of showing the benefits of skill, allbeit that I rarely show it anyway. The Pershing is a masterpiece for this. If the T-44 does the same I will get one of those too. Meanwhile, I hope lots of people buy the Type 59 so that I don't have to pay more for the game than I already do.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

Frankly, I dont get the point. AP won't change, so you were penned for full dmg and you will be penned exactly the same way, nothing will change.

 undtctd, on 28 November 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

no, you didnt understand

Obviously, cause I've got no idea how HE nerf hits us meds (other than those suited for derp) while they were and will be penned by ap easily anyway. Yeah Pershing is made of paper, nothing new.

I'd be grateful if you could explain it to me.

 sego, on 28 November 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

That wasn't very helpful.

 undtctd, on 28 November 2011 - 04:46 PM, said:

His point seems to be that the counter to the power of Panther II or Type 59 is currently HE, which is their perceived weakness. Therefore they have effectively buffed Panther II and Type 59. I don't agree with that view.

Only very low level tanks will use HE against a Panther II in my experience. Everything similar tier and below will flank it (very bad traverse and sides the size of billboards and just as vertical) or avoid the head on fight alone, if they can't penetrate the lower glacis (which is made of finest Gouda and the size of a cowshed). Type 59 I have only played against, not in. I only ever use HE against it in extreme situations where they are hull down and I can't move for some reason (like trapped by arty fire). It's easily penetrated in the hull at medium ranges by Tier 7s and some T6s. Admittedly, it's turret is an utter bastard which is the only reason for it's strength.

I can't wait for the new gun with the better ROF and same penetration,
then I will be able to ding even faster.
     

Don't make any arguments based on win ratio, because MM loves some tanks more than others. I have 60% win ratio in PII and 50% WR in KT, even though I have more Damage per battle and XP per battle in KT
And from what I remember, when someone checked damage per battle behind stats for T5 tanks it turned out, that the tank with the lowest WR was the most devastating on the battlefield (probably it was KV).

@Rollup - Type 59 when angled dings IDIOT gun and 122 D25T easily. It has around 164mm armor equivalent, add some angle and you have a very tough front. Yes, panther and PII pen it quite reliably, but its hull is a very small target and it's not easy to hit. And when Type 54 gets some additional angle (it's front is angled slightly upwards in vertical), even 88L71 dings, unless it hits tiny lower hull,
To sum it up - Type 59 is safe from everything T6 and any russian T7  when angled, is safe from anything german or american T6 and below when not even angled,
Panther II gets its front penned by Panzer IV and Wolverine (Wolverine set me on fire when I was facing him angled, he just blasted lower hull made of paper machee).

 Rollup, on 28 November 2011 - 05:35 PM, said:

No, not THE counter. Just the thing players in smaller tanks than them or with not enough skill or opportunity (due to being too far way) to find weak spots or flank use. But there are very many of those.

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Yes. Especially Type 59.


I will walk you through a hypothetical example to illustrate what I'm talking about.

You are in your Pershing with about 4/5 health together with complete noob IS with 85mm gun who uses HE against everything (seen many of these). You are up against full health Type-59 who ambushes you in the corner and you are just trading shots with him. IS is also shooting the Type-59 in the turret. In 6.7 usually you outdamage the Type-59 and he dies, as IS is doing about 80 dmg every time he hits. In 7.0 the IS is doing little to no damage due to new HE mechanic and the Type-59 kills you, then outmaneuvers the IS and wins the game.

Yes, the AP shells you used didn't change. The AP shells the Type-59 used didn't change. Even your armour didn't change. But you won in 6.7 and lost in 7.0.

Surprised to see everyone giving me negative reputation while not even understanding the point I'm making.

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I've played Type-59 enough to know that people really switch to HE very often when against it. At least if you play it right. 5 steel walls in 120 matches may not be much but it is about the same proportion as my Tiger2 has. I remember one with 34 hits received vs various meds of tier 6-8 (which all didn't bother rushing me but tried to hit my front).

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False. Not consistently.

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False. It's other strength is the front hull when angled, especially from distance.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

So low tier tanks struggle against a Tier 8 medium. In fact they struggle against all Tier 8 mediums, just more so against a Type 59 because of it's relatively strong armor.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

So you're saying that two incompetents will lose against a Type 59 ? The IS should not be using HE. Making hypothetical examples of people failing to play the game sensibly is pointless. If the IS is stupid enough to use mostly HE then he just fails against almost everything. Not being able to out-manoevre a Type 59 in a Pershing so that he shoots at the IS is also woeful.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

This is because you are failing to get any point across that the majority agree with, and you aren't a shining example of politeness. I have not neg repped you btw.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

This not the right way to play against a Type 59 except if in some Tier 6 or below. Not rushing you was their stupidity, not because the tank is OP. Trying to hit the front of Type 59 in a Tier 6 medium is crass. They need to learn to flank or wait for support. I have 2 Steel walls in 79 games in my Pershing. It happens sometimes against lower tiers and Type 59s get more of those matches than the Pershing.

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

Yes consistantly. It's a small target, but the upper part of the upper glacis is the place to aim. A tier 5 Stug can pen it 5/10 if not angled. Many are just used to going for the lower glacis which is a weak spot for many tanks, but a strength of Type 59. It's very sharply angled. The Lower part of the upper glacis is also pretty hard to penetrate, but the Panther II can, reliably, with top gun.

See here for where to shoot http://forum.worldof...ew-the-type-59/

 ogremage, on 28 November 2011 - 08:58 PM, said:

No, the front hull has a central weakness. See above. If angled enough to stop me penetrating in a Pershing then I can shoot the flat hull side.


As I have said, the Type 59 is slightly OP for it's Tier and matchmaking. I am comfortable taking them on one to one in either Panther II or Pershing. WG won't nerf a premium tank after release, so no point bitching about them.

This thread is about the T-44, which should be compared to the other non-premium Tier 8 mediums.

 Rollup, on 29 November 2011 - 02:09 AM, said:

Significantly more so. Not a little bit more so. Significantly.

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There are very many incompetents at this game, as I see almost every single game. and these incompetents will now fail even more badly against Type-59 and to lesser extent Panther2, as compared to the Pershing.

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Possibly. Although I disagree that I've not been polite. I've been anything but.

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If I was in a Pershing in the same spot I'd be dead.

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I'd like to see a training room video of that.

In fact, someone in a Type-59 thread once promised me something similar, and still hasn't delivered. I guess he's still recording.

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True.

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Again, bring me a video to show that, especially at more than 100 meters.

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Most people don't know that weakness, and it is still quite small to hit at range.

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How about we do a training room in Malinovka, go duke it out in a nice dogfight out on the field? I'll take my Type-59, you can take either of your tier 8 meds.

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Yeah; currently UP, probably up to par with the new gun/engine.