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Artillery/SPG Discussion Thread


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tronlicious #2681 Posted 26 April 2017 - 08:33 PM

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Please remove the idiotic platoon limitation on SPGs..... what on gods earth did the guy deciding that was to be implented think. I honestly cannot understand what makes that a good idea. 

jabster #2682 Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:06 PM

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View PostElement6_TheSprout, on 26 April 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

How can I be wrong? What I have said is that usage statistics does not tell WG what a player thinks about a class. 0% SPG use can mean that a player just find them boring, but don't really hate or dislike them either. It can also mean that the player outright hates them, and it can mean that a player likes them (in the sense that he thinks they belong in the game and is positive) but doesn't see the need to grind them. Due to this, there is a potential pitfall. I have never claimed that the majority likes or love the SPG class. 

 

I would be the worlds largest hypocrite if I claimed that WG not being able to determine the opinion of a player on the count of usage % is evidence of players liking a class. None of you have ever thrown that point back in my face. Either you are not intelligent enough to see that you could have done that, if that was in fact what I did, or you have distorted what I have been writing.

 

I'm counting on the latter since I think you are more than intelligent enough to have picked up on the hypocricy you accuse me of.

 

Pesonally besides the more academic reasons behind how does the 'forum opinion' translate into the playerbase as a whole it seems all rather irrelevant. I'm one of those players that doesn't play arty but has no real problem with them being in the game. Maybe 95% of players agree with me or maybe 95% players disagree with me. Does that mean I'm going to change my personal opinion about a game of pixel tanks. Of course it doesn't and why would it. The idea that something so subjective is objectively right or wrong based on whether others agree or disagree seems somewhat silly.

Wintermute_1 #2683 Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:31 PM

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View Postfighting_falcon93, on 26 April 2017 - 01:31 PM, said:

The theoretical roof is not infinite, because there's only a finite amount of HP and tanks on the enemy team. The theoretical roof would therefore be to have 15 Maus on your enemy team, where you get to shoot and kill all of them by yourself, and this would happen for 100% of your battles. That would yield you an account average damage of 48'000. The WN8 would be absurdly high but it would not be infinite.

 

Its infinite in the sense that there is no upper limit or cap. The calculation will just keep on running and running creating a bigger number. That's why rating scales just say 3000+, 3000 and above and on some scales actually use the infinity symbol.

 

Block Quote

I'm not denying that skill matters in arta, because otherwise all arta players would have the same WN8. But the roof is still extremely low compared to other classes. And to prove this we can't just look at how high WN8 someone has in his arta, because WN8 doesn't tell us how easy/difficult it's to play a class, but rather how much damage he does in comparison to other players.

 

Let's take a look:

 

https://wot-life.com...erick-500757725

 

You say he performs at 2.2K WN8 in his other classes... If we take a look at tier 10, it seems he's actually performing at 1500-2000 WN8 in normal tanks, while doing 2000-2200 WN8 in arta. 

 

He has a recent WN8 of 2472 and a recent WR of 62.46%. That suggests that he's a better player than me... But on closer investigation I still have higher WN8 compared to him in almost every tier 10 that we have in common, except arta. So this player is actually playing worse than me, but by just jumping into another vehicle class he can suddenly perform better. That he's able to get a higher WN8 in arta compared to normal tanks suggests that this player is actually benefiting from the low skill cap of arta.

 

If the skill floor of arta was equal to other classes, this guy would need to be a blue player in order to play on blue level in arta. If the skill roof of arta was equal to other classes, purple players would be able to play on purple level in arta. These two statements only holds true in a few exceptions, and not in general. Meanwhile, a purple player will be able to play on purple level in all normal classes.

 

 

You misunderstood me I meant the 2.2k wn8 was for his arty, its actually 2183.51. For reference: 1703 HT, 1697 MT, 1489 LT, 2025 TD. 

His recents include 107 games in a T49 at a winrate of 72.13%. Your recents include 89 games in a T49 at a win rate of 31.46%. I'm not just picking the T49 for comparison because it shows a big difference, its the only non arty he's played recently with a significant number of games. Additionally this is the only non arty tank you can make a direct timeframe comparison with. You've just compared recent results in your T10's (since you decided to get good) with his tier 10 results from god knows when. 

The rest of your argument seems to suggest that if you can play 1 type of non arty tank you can play them all to a similar level, where's the evidence for that? Its not an assumption I would make. Your stats show a similar wn8 between your performances in heavies and TDs but meds are your furthest outlier with SPGS being nearest in value to lights. F_F93: 1312 HT, 1542 MT, 1250 LT, 1308 TD, 1187 SPG. Wn8 for tank type is likely far more related to play style than it is to some underlying WoT ability.   

 

Block Quote

 

There's a few important things to notice:  2) I'm still not a good player, 

 

I hate the term 'good player'. Many people (not you to my recall) use the term to mean anyone with a wn8 worse than theirs. And the higher the Wn8 of the person defining a 'Good player' the tinier and tinier a percentile of the population it seems to relate to. 

 



Element6 #2684 Posted 26 April 2017 - 09:55 PM

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View Postjabster, on 26 April 2017 - 09:06 PM, said:

Pesonally besides the more academic reasons behind how does the 'forum opinion' translate into the playerbase as a whole it seems all rather irrelevant. I'm one of those players that doesn't play arty but has no real problem with them being in the game. Maybe 95% of players agree with me or maybe 95% players disagree with me. Does that mean I'm going to change my personal opinion about a game of pixel tanks. Of course it doesn't and why would it. The idea that something so subjective is objectively right or wrong based on whether others agree or disagree seems somewhat silly.

It is silly, what is happening here on the forums is in it's ultimate form propaganda to rally players to a certain opinion. In a game like this it is not even given that majority vote is what creates the larges steady playerbase. The shelves in a supermarket are dicated by the trends of very lare numbers of recurring customers, and products that lots of people are alergic to take up space that customers with alergies never buy. This is why each and every one of us must pass shelf after shelf of products we never buy, distance that for us as individuals makes little sense and makes the collection of products more tedious and time consuming than it could be under optimal cicumstances, for you

 

It doesn't matter that I have never ever in my life bought a bottle of tonic water, there are leagues of people behind me that will. Does the supermarket care that I need to walk extra distance due to products I never buy? Of course not, it's just potential extra sales by merely getting into our subconsciousness, while at the same time generating steady income through the other customers that buys them regularly.

 

And as WG themsleves claimed just before christmas, WoT just set a new record for itself for active players.

 

I guess one could believe, if one wanted to, that that is a mere lie from WG that the playerbase is growing and is healthy. This is probably a last desperate attempt to stagnate or ultimately remove entirely the tumor that is holding their product back and holding back progression, the SPG class. I'm not a believer of that theory.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm spechul for seeing a clear picture in the above.



Long_Range_Sniper #2685 Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:01 PM

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View Postpsychobear, on 26 April 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

 

The more apropriate question would be "who cares?"

Honestly, LRS, would you rather have +x% winrate but miserable frustrating games, or no matter what winrate but fun and enjoyable games? I'd definitely go for the latter, but hey, what do i know, i'm just a noob with low winrate to begin with.

 

I'd say WG cares, as they need to determine what is good for player retention, and if artillery removal output is good for customer feedback, but player retention due to winrate dropping after that is a bad outcome then that's a factor they need to consider.

 

I'll play the game with or without arty, and the fact I'm a fan of the FV 304 is not a concern for WG. I just want them to decide the right result that will still have the game around in another six years.



fighting_falcon93 #2686 Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:12 PM

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View PostWintermute_1, on 26 April 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

His recents include 107 games in a T49 at a winrate of 72.13%. Your recents include 89 games in a T49 at a win rate of 31.46%.

 

My T49 is an exception. I can't play with that tank for some reason. That's also the reason I'll use the 105 mm gun on Sheridan and not the derp one.

 

Take a look at my LTTB instead, I unlocked my T-54 ltwt. last week so LTTB is the most fresh LT you can get from my account. Either the LTTB or my WZ-132 in which I run about 1-2 games per day.

 

View PostWintermute_1, on 26 April 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

The rest of your argument seems to suggest that if you can play 1 type of non arty tank you can play them all to a similar level, where's the evidence for that?

 

Any purple player. I've actually never seen a purple player that has purple stats in HTs for example, but then non-purple (or atleast blue) stats in LTs and MTs, not even in TDs.

 

View PostWintermute_1, on 26 April 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

Wn8 for tank type is likely far more related to play style than it is to some underlying WoT ability.

 

Not quite sure what you mean by "ability" but I've seen a lot of purple players with different play styles. Some of them play more defensive, some of them play more agressive, some of them snipe more some of them brawl more. Personally I prefer to play like Decha from FAME, he plays quite aggresively, although I've not found that fine line yet because sometimes I'm too aggressive which results in me being taken out early.

 

View PostWintermute_1, on 26 April 2017 - 09:31 PM, said:

I hate the term 'good player'. Many people (not you to my recall) use the term to mean anyone with a wn8 worse than theirs.

 

When I say good player I mean 2 things combined:

 

1) A player that has alteast light purple WN8/WR.

2) Teamplay capability (stats means nothing if you can't play like a team).

 

Since I mostly watch FAME when watching streams I can't talk for other clans, but generally those guys have impressive capabilities in both these categories.



fighting_falcon93 #2687 Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:25 PM

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View PostOraoZoveKondora, on 26 April 2017 - 10:18 PM, said:

arty haters have no answer to my most decisive argument so they choose to ignore it and continue babbling  about irrelevant things

 

 

View PostForerunner02, on 27 July 2017 - 11:05 PM, said:

Dire que j'avais créer le mur des lamentations pour se moquer des topics ouin ouins. :trollface:

 

"Topic stockage OuinOuin"

Si personne ne poste un "OuinOuin", comment veux tu te moquer? ;)

 

-

 

Profites, j'ai passé une bonne minute à le rédiger... Mais, j'ai vu qu'entre temps des sujets "OuinOuin" ont été ouvert... Pfff... Ils pourraient poster dans le bon salon de discussion quand même.

 

View PostGiorgio676, on 28 July 2017 - 05:30 AM, said:

 

envoie le replay qu'on se marre

 

Un peu de ban/repos te feras le plus grand bien il fait si beau dehors !

 

Pas besoin de Wargaming pour prendre du repos, je joue à ce jeu quand j'ai rien de plus intéressant à faire, très tard le soir en général.

Faut être "malade" pour faire passer un jeu vidéo avant la vraie vie. (Petite pensée à ceux qui s'imposent des contraintes pour participer au CW, tournoi ESL ou autre)


 

fighting_falcon93 #2688 Posted 26 April 2017 - 10:32 PM

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View PostOraoZoveKondora, on 26 April 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

see? typical arty hater immature reaction

 



Fiets #2689 Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:11 PM

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Edited.
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks


Edited by Asklepi0s, 27 April 2017 - 07:55 AM.


SilentFear #2690 Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:15 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 26 April 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

 

That obviously depends on how many games the 1% play in comparison to the 99% and at what tiers. But that data isn't available.

 

 

 

What ever the number of games said 1% do - it will not influence in the slightest the 99%.

As you and Emental have said many times - good players are in such vast minority that their personal achievements would mean jack.

 



Long_Range_Sniper #2691 Posted 26 April 2017 - 11:46 PM

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View PostSilentFear, on 26 April 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

 

What ever the number of games said 1% do - it will not influence in the slightest the 99%.

As you and Emental have said many times - good players are in such vast minority that their personal achievements would mean jack.

 

 

If what you say is true then you'd see an almost linear correlation between damage received and damage dealt on the server. But you don't as illustrated below. It's far from an almost linear correlation. So better players take more a lot more damage from poorer players by a significant amount.

 

Also the server active player winrate is 52%, so that implies that more active players are winning more, and they do that by doing more damage.

 

So everything points to a disproportionate impact that better and more frequent players have on the global damage stats. When you then remove the biggest RNG class in the game, that impact is only going to go one way and it's not down.

 

gfggfgf.jpg



Folau #2692 Posted 27 April 2017 - 12:06 AM

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Well, server just booted me off for some work to be done. The maybe-better-maybe-worse-idk-whatever-the-hell-is-going-on-thing is happening.

SilentFear #2693 Posted 27 April 2017 - 12:07 AM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 26 April 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

 

So everything points to a disproportionate impact that better and more frequent players have on the global damage stats. When you then remove the biggest RNG class in the game, that impact is only going to go one way and it's not down.

 

 

Yet we remain on the problem. How much would a 2% winrate increase for the 1% of the playerbase would affect the remaining 99% ?

Just think about it. 2% increase (right ) on the performance of 1% of the whole playerbase. The affect on the 99% would be nothing or close to it. 

 

Hardly something worth mentioning. Hell a single OP tank would have far higher affect on the performance of the 99%.



Long_Range_Sniper #2694 Posted 27 April 2017 - 12:27 AM

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View PostSilentFear, on 26 April 2017 - 11:07 PM, said:

The affect on the 99% would be nothing or close to it. 

 

You don't have the data to draw that conclusion, but you do have the data above to indicate that your hypothesis is more unlikely than the opposite.

 

What those graphs do show though is fewer players take more damage from the majority of players by a large margin. I don't think anyone would disagree that better players play more often than poorer players. The server winrate stats correlate with this as well.

 

What this implies to me, is that removing artillery will improve the damage dealt for the top percentage of players at the expense of the bottom percentage. Where that tipping point is would be determined by WG's more detailed stats that we don't see.

 

If the tipping point is chosen correctly and the game variables are tuned towards getting it right then it potentially would be good for the game. Say the top 15% of players play the most, and invest the most, and you removed arty which meant that those 15% now dominated the game even more and they stayed. But you lost a larger fraction of the bottom percentage who don't invest and were never going to stay long anyway....then it's a good decision. But as the game's still going strong after six years, you'd better get that decision right, and going on hunches is not really something a multi-million dollar company is going to do.

 

What that illustrates is that the decision to remove arty is more than just gameplay, and it probably always has been.



slitth #2695 Posted 27 April 2017 - 05:47 AM

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I still say it easier to fix than remove.

 

You just need to know that to fix, and the feedback about artillery is not that consistent.

Or rather the feedback I have read on the forum is not that consistent.

And I guess that WG has much better data sheet that this forum.

 

Right now WG is working from the assumption that is the one-shots that make artillery disliked.

And reducing that alpha and encouraging artillery to go for multiple targets instead of one should in theory fix this.

 

I have also read a lot of feedback that states that artilleries ability to shoot without line-of-sight is the problem.

This can be fixed by removing the artillery overview, then give artillery the ability to see all tank that are spotted, but also give them the lowest spot range.

Now artillery is a extreme range fire support, it can shoot at all spotted tank in line-of-sight, but can not assist the team by spotting himself.

Turning artillery in to a Type 5 Heavy with the 15 cm/45 41st Year Type and a damage viewport.

And it would make sense only to use HE shells, because hitting a tank at extreme range would be hard enough, going for a weak spot would be nearly impossible.



strezahuzum #2696 Posted 27 April 2017 - 09:30 AM

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New update seems nice. At least for skypig hunting. 5 killed so far in 2 games.

Tikky_tank #2697 Posted 27 April 2017 - 10:15 AM

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View PostOraoZoveKondora, on 27 April 2017 - 10:04 AM, said:

praise the WG!!

with reduced reload and aiming time arty is even more fun to play!!

today is arty day!!!

 

Just wait for the Himmelsdorf-Stalingrad-Paris-Ensk map rotation ... that will chop your fun :trollface:

 



Ph3lan #2698 Posted 27 April 2017 - 10:46 AM

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Hey guys!

 

I am temporarily closing this thread. Since the 9.18 changes introduced revamped arty mechanics please leave your feedback about SPGs in this thread for now: http://forum.worldof...anges-feedback/

 

- Ph3lan






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