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Renewed Stronghold Summary

wg broken stronghold skirmish

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Griva #1 Posted 03 March 2017 - 03:26 AM

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Before we start

  1. I hope many clans and players sign here or leave the comment (constructive as much as possible).
  2. I also hope that WG staff will see it and will consider it as important feedback.
  3. I dont know how excatly MM wokrs for SH so I may be wrong.
  4. I'm not on the side of good clans and bad clans
  5. This is my own conclusion but I need to confirm that it's correct for everyone.
  6. This is only about skirmishes

 

If TL;TR just go here

This will not be a standard "riot" thread because the whole things are more complicated but I want to describe in short problems coming with renewed SH.:)

 

 

First of all - Who is not happy?

 

Good clans, but this is only partly true. I made some research and mainly good players complaining for SH changes (I will explain why later).

Lets start with some facts.

Before update good clans (define good as more than 2000~ WN8) mainly played against weak clans (define as lower than 1400~).

Depending on clan it was probably 60-80% of battles. This situation any some other factors allowed better clans to use crap-setups = using not the best tanks avaiable.

Unfortunately skill based MM for skirmish, airstrikes and new super pro no scope premium tank called "Defender" not allowing to use all tanks available for game.

 

 

Focus on Match Maker™ first.

 

New match maker for skirmishes looks like uses clan SH elo rating for every tier.

I think everyone know how it works - you win = you get some points and when you lose = lose some points.

New MM trying to find similar teams in brackets for our elo rating - it means we should always get enemies comparable to us and idea of this is completely correct but...

Probably MM allowing clans only similar to us in some of elo range it means (small example now):

 

Rainbow line is skill range - it can be WN8 or elo rating, it does not matter.

Bottom gradient is number of clans for skill range: dark = many, white = 0.

 

For example "yellow" clan A can meet some red clans but also green clans - that's really nice for them because previosuly they could meet blue or purple gu's also.

In my opinion it's partly rly nice because finally some clans dont have to fight against unicums but:

 

"dark blue" clan B fighting against blue-purple clans also nice but as you can see it's harder to find enemy for them because number of good clans is much lower than clans around green color.

Results?

Some "high skill" clans fighting very often against the same clans.

 

 

Waiting time for the battle is too long

 

Tier VI skirmishes

Meta was to play fast games to have fun and make some cash.

Now waiting for battle May take longer than duration of single battle.

 

Tier VIII skirmishes

Meta was to play relaxing strategic battles on "normal" tanks in team.

Excluding waiting time which is also too long, battles are not as fun as before for many players.

 

Tier X skirmishes

This mode is actually better now but only because previously mostly best clans played it.

As bad or avarage clan you mainly played against good or unicum clans. It was just not fun for weaker clans to lose every game.

 

Advances

We did not have possibility to test it well and the problem is not about advances so I will skip it but for skilled MM is completely good idea and I think everyone can agree.

 

 

Main problem

 

Main problem of complaining players is competition for tier 6 nad 8. 

Strictly speaking skirmish of these tiers were just relaxing mode where you can stress out and have fun playing in your team.

People just don't want to play competetive on these tiers of skirmishes.

It's very well explained by HowTheStoryEnds here in SH feedback thread.

 

 

But this is not the end, now the funny part...

 

As I mentioned about "not happy clans" I said it's partly true - why?

It does not matter how strong is your clan, It does not matter where you put MM bracked region on my rainbow image - your clan win rate always move towards 50%:trollface:

You can be yellow clan A or blue clan B and you always meet 50% better clans and 50% worse clans and even if you play really well, when your elo rating increase - you encounter your skill barrier.

This way game keeps you on the same elo rating. What does it mean?

Every every clan in game in short time will reach skill barrier and even if you win 60% of battles now, soon you will win around 50%.

 

Good clans started with good elo rating so they feel it now (not used to it) but the worst thing is that bad clans don't care for it because they losing anyway.

So now we got situation where everyone can be equal and clan is PUNISHED FOR GOOD PLAY. Elo rating gives NOTHING for clan, only one thing you get as reward is more lost games.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE

 

If elo rating would give us profits that this would make sense but now this is one big HERESY.

Soon chart of clan win rate will looks like this:

 

 

 

Conclusion

 

My personal conclusion and also "How to fix it" is just remove skilled MM for skirmishes tier VI and VIII. This is what ppl wants.

Other possibility can be to make very very big brackets that waiting for battle almost doesn't exist but at the same time enogh that super weak clans cannot meet super pro unicum clans (I think they dont care anyway).

Skilled MM for advances - yes.

Skilled MM for tier X skirmish - I think yes.

Thats all. If I forget something - please comment.

 

And as always - Thx for watching!

 


Edited by Griva, 03 March 2017 - 02:51 PM.


Homer_J #2 Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:09 AM

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Sounds like all the things I always said would be bad about skill based mm in randoms come true.

Edited by Homer_J, 03 March 2017 - 04:09 AM.


alienslive #3 Posted 03 March 2017 - 11:46 AM

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I guess WG only visits this part of the forum when they need to moderate smth.

Post this also in the feedback thread.

 



_Crusad3r_ #4 Posted 03 March 2017 - 11:55 AM

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Basically they need to stop making shite decisions that are making more and more good players quit the game - the more good players that quit the more good clans die. This will affect T10 SH. Other than that - remove skill based MM from T6/8 because there isn't alot of "skill" required when people can just fork out 40 euros for a gg ez tank.....

Edited by _Crusad3r_, 10 March 2017 - 09:32 AM.


Junglist_ #5 Posted 03 March 2017 - 12:04 PM

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Nice post there Griva and like Alien said you should post it to the feedback topic as well, may be a better chance of somebody spotting it.

Yeah it is a shame that they butchered strongholds, was thinking about joining a clan again but theres no point now since they managed to fuk up the last enjoyable mode there was.



alienslive #6 Posted 03 March 2017 - 12:10 PM

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View PostJunglist_, on 03 March 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

Nice post there Griva and like Alien said you should post it to the feedback topic as well, may be a better chance of somebody spotting it.

Yeah it is a shame that they butchered strongholds, was thinking about joining a clan again but theres no point now since they managed to fuk up the last enjoyable mode there was.

 

The best feature in SH that you can be legionary even if you are in clan. I play SH 80% as a merc.

Junglist_ #7 Posted 03 March 2017 - 12:17 PM

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View Postalienslive, on 03 March 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

 

The best feature in SH that you can be legionary even if you are in clan. I play SH 80% as a merc.

 

Well yeah, but Im not gonna have a credit bonus tho, or am I?

alienslive #8 Posted 03 March 2017 - 12:24 PM

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View PostJunglist_, on 03 March 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

 

Well yeah, but Im not gonna have a credit bonus tho, or am I?

 

Nope. But you can grind stock and play with crap tanks play with prem tanks and earn credits, free xp....+ fun (?).

Corvids_Fall #9 Posted 03 March 2017 - 12:57 PM

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Great points overall. I think part of this is that WG is desperately trying to rebalance the economy of the game. If good players can easily earn lots of credits in SH then why buy credit packs or premium tanks? 

 

The good news is a lot of the animosity reflected at WG here is that we are loosing what was the 'fun' mode in world of tanks. Where games have little consequence and you don't loose credits but can still have fun playing all those tanks you ground out with clan friends. Something WG could do to fix this is to simply add some fun/non competitive game modes. Imagine if chaffee racing and IS-8 ball and all those other fun games were still playable. I don't need to be earning credits just let me have fun! Its a game for ****s sake. Follow the Overwatch model more. Have Randoms/CW/SH where WN8 and competitive play counts and some other mode where we can have fun with friends. This would retain me as a player. You could even have this fun mode be available to premium accounts only if you are worried about revenue.

 

The lack of creativity from WG is shocking.



Junglist_ #10 Posted 03 March 2017 - 01:05 PM

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View Postalienslive, on 03 March 2017 - 11:24 AM, said:

 

Nope. But you can grind stock and play with crap tanks play with prem tanks and earn credits, free xp....+ fun (?).

 

Which would be a sound option before the changes, but now it would be without the bonus + in  T6 waiting for the battle longer than the actual match or in T8 tryharding like in CWs. No fun, no point playing as a mercenary, rather earn credits in randoms and get clicked for full hp in first 2 minutes of the battle.

KABINE10_EL_POLLO_LOCO #11 Posted 03 March 2017 - 02:00 PM

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im too lazy to read it, some can sum it up in few sentences? (wait iknow, current sh system sucks, dont fix things which is not broken)

Griva #12 Posted 03 March 2017 - 02:56 PM

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Just read from herebut in super nutshell: People want to relax in SH t6 and t8 so they should remove skilled MM.

And also now everyone is equal cos WR always moving towards 50% :child:, you get higher elo rating and your winning is awarded by stronger enemies = loses.


Edited by Griva, 03 March 2017 - 02:57 PM.


HowTheStoryEnds #13 Posted 03 March 2017 - 03:44 PM

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please do not accept this thread as summary, it only presents the views of the OP

Brutal_Enforcer_007 #14 Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:08 PM

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As a member of a small clan here in sweden we play skirmish once per week but before this update we were mostly playing with a 5% to 25% win chance and the game would be over in 2 to 3 mins, last night we played for the first time in the new format and I can tell you that it was very enjoyable to have around a 55 to 60% win rate and lots of fun, with the new merc feature we were able to get 1 team member and he joined us on TS stay for the whole 2 1/2 hours.

 

As a clan that is of mixed player levels and skill set we all really enjoyed our time

 

3KR Clan rating 1063 in teir 6 and we hope to inprove with the new system. It was funny to play as we still don't have the airstike setup but that is coming

Just thought I would post my thoughts from a small clan of guys who play for fun and not noterioty.

 

tx for listerning

Brutal_Enforcer_007



Pagon1s #15 Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:19 PM

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View PostBrutal_Enforcer_007, on 03 March 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

As a member of a small clan here in sweden we play skirmish once per week but before this update we were mostly playing with a 5% to 25% win chance and the game would be over in 2 to 3 mins, last night we played for the first time in the new format and I can tell you that it was very enjoyable to have around a 55 to 60% win rate and lots of fun, with the new merc feature we were able to get 1 team member and he joined us on TS stay for the whole 2 1/2 hours.

 

As a clan that is of mixed player levels and skill set we all really enjoyed our time

 

3KR Clan rating 1063 in teir 6 and we hope to inprove with the new system. It was funny to play as we still don't have the airstike setup but that is coming

Just thought I would post my thoughts from a small clan of guys who play for fun and not noterioty.

 

tx for listerning

Brutal_Enforcer_007

 

Well you played 20 (11 yesterday) battles during the last 28 days with a win rate 45%. Your overall rate is 38% from 400 battles.

 

I would say 20 battles are not enough to make a conclusion like you did above. Moreover, 11 battles in 2h???



_Abe_77 #16 Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:23 PM

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View PostGriva, on 03 March 2017 - 04:26 AM, said:

 

Good clans, but this is only partly true. I made some research and mainly good players complaining for SH changes (I will explain why later).

Lets start with some facts.

Before update good clans (define good as more than 2000~ WN8) mainly played against weak clans (define as lower than 1400~).

Depending on clan it was probably 60-80% of battles. This situation any some other factors allowed better clans to use crap-setups = using not the best tanks avaiable.

Unfortunately skill based MM for skirmish, airstrikes and new super pro no scope premium tank called "Defender" not allowing to use all tanks available for game.

...

Strictly speaking skirmish of these tiers were just relaxing mode where you can stress out and have fun playing in your team.

People just don't want to play competetive on these tiers of skirmishes.

...

 

For me, above sentences are eleborate expression of "we cannot bash noobs properly anymore".

You can bash them whenever you want with proper setup, but it is a little bit tiresome now.

 

I think at tier VI, even noob clans have a chance of winning and having fun, but I support the new format for tier VIII and X.



Brutal_Enforcer_007 #17 Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:25 PM

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View PostPagon1s, on 03 March 2017 - 03:19 PM, said:

 

Well you played 20 (11 yesterday) battles during the last 28 days with a win rate 45%. Your overall rate is 38% from 400 battles.

 

I would say 20 battles are not enough to make a conclusion like you did above. Moreover, 11 battles in 2h???

 

Wow trash me ffs all I was saying is we liked the changes and yes never heard of breaks / phone calls / and the wait for games with the new format... why belittle somebody giving some positiveity to a topic.. yes so what we do not play for rating as I said we play for fun and the stats really mean nothing at all.... Just the game play was nicer then before..

 

It does not matter how many games we played could have been 5, and still say it was a better experience than before....

We play for 1 / 12 to 2 hours once per week


Edited by Brutal_Enforcer_007, 03 March 2017 - 04:31 PM.


Pagon1s #18 Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:31 PM

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View PostBrutal_Enforcer_007, on 03 March 2017 - 04:25 PM, said:

 

Wow trash me ffs all I was saying is we liked the changes and yes never heard of breaks / phone calls / and the wait for games with the new format... why belittle somebody giving some positiveity to a topic.. yes so what we do not play for rating as I said we play for fun and the stats really mean nothing at all.... Just the game play was nicer then before..

We play for 1 / 12 to 2 hours once per week

 

Don't get me wrong comrade, trashing was not my intention :)

 

SH changes are not well accepted for a reason and your positivism comes from a wrong assumptions. Play more battles and we will see ;)

 



Brutal_Enforcer_007 #19 Posted 03 March 2017 - 04:35 PM

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View PostPagon1s, on 03 March 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

 

Don't get me wrong comrade, trashing was not my intention :)

 

SH changes are not well accepted for a reason and your positivism comes from a wrong assumptions. Play more battles and we will see ;)

 

 

Well the SH changes for US!!!! was better as you can see we are not clanwar / stronghold players and PLAY for fun :teethhappy: and yes after next week when we play 20 more we will still be of the same thoughts.

Hf & GL with your battles and maybe one light year ahead we may be the same level but I would not hold my breath as we play for fun not stats :hiding:


Edited by Brutal_Enforcer_007, 03 March 2017 - 04:36 PM.


Griva #20 Posted 03 March 2017 - 05:01 PM

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View PostHowTheStoryEnds, on 03 March 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

please do not accept this thread as summary, it only presents the views of the OP

I had no idea how name this thread :P

This is not only my point of view, I tryied to do it from general point.

But anyway I missed something?  You have point of view from very good clan so please show me yours better - I made this thread to make complete desciption of this problem, not to show one and original truth.

 

View Post_Abe_77, on 03 March 2017 - 03:23 PM, said:

 

For me, above sentences are eleborate expression of "we cannot bash noobs properly anymore".

You can bash them whenever you want with proper setup, but it is a little bit tiresome now.

 

I think at tier VI, even noob clans have a chance of winning and having fun, but I support the new format for tier VIII and X.

 

You dont understand point of view. Good clans goes for wins, gold, awards, fame etc, your award is win, more credits.This system forcing you to lose your battles, it's not worth to be good because you win anyway the same amount of battles.

Bobs clans don't care for it so much, they plays for fun because they are not able to go for more. So you say in your opinion red tomatoes 800 wn8 should get the same rewards for bot play as you 1500 wn8? What?

At tier 6 this is not important that you have skil MM or not - main problem is waiting time.





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