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Is the 252 still OP?


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Tr0gledyte #701 Posted 16 July 2017 - 12:57 PM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 16 July 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

It is perfect, those graphs where never supposed to show performance by tier. They show wr in function of player wr in that tank. Thats it, no more.  

I would say my assumption is more reasonable , i said the reasons why in my previous post.

What is wrong with your explanation is that its quite unlikely that a defender wins 75% of games when toptier played by an avg player, I would say even I ( 65% wr recents) would get max 75% when toptier.  And then you say it gets an avg wr when there are just 3 or 5 tier9s in the game? So a 25% wr drop because 3 tanks it fights are a bit stronger. Unreasonable.

 

And i already explaned that the armor does hold up very well in tier10 btw.

 

 

The data is perfect, but it's not the data we're looking for in this specific discussion. 

 

It's hard for me to estimate how often an average player would win a match when top tier. Considering the average global winrate is 55% with this terrible MM and players will definitely win more when top tier than when bottom tier, I'd imagine it's at least somewhere between 60-70%. If things can't penetrate you despite you showing your weakspots it's really not that difficult to win.

I think you're underestimating yourself, you have a 69% global winrate in your Defender despite being bottom tier 80% of the time. I find it hard to believe that you'd only get "max 75%" if you'd always play top tier. You know just as well as I do that it has insane carry potential vs equal and lower tiers because of the armor.

 

The armor holds up reasonably well against higher tiers, but only if you know how to use it. An exposed LFP does not hold up at all against tier IX and X and many average players will expose their weakspots and get wrecked within seconds. This is why I believe the reason its global average winrate across all Defender owners is so high simply because it's nigh impenetrable when top tier.


Edited by Tr0gledyte, 16 July 2017 - 12:59 PM.


Long_Range_Sniper #702 Posted 16 July 2017 - 01:24 PM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 16 July 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

And i already explaned that the armor does hold up very well in tier10 btw.

 

It does, and tanks GG shows how it can cope in higher tiers quite well.

 

I set the tier IX and X tanks up as stock tanks, but gave the Defender vents/rammer/vstabs and prem ammo. You always have the option to press 2 in a higher tier game and look how the tier 8 Defender suddenly becomes quite competitive. When you then compare the armour it's not too far away from tanks one and two tiers higher. It loses out on HP for sure, but you can see how very easily it generates the wincurves that it does. When you then consider it's a premium tank so the economy is better no wonder you get the performance you see across all skill levels.

 

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GekkoGordon #703 Posted 16 July 2017 - 01:49 PM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 16 July 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

It's too slow to carry games most of the time. Or are you going to post OP stats about the Lowe as well?

 

It's not a mediocre tank. Not OP like Defender, but can carry it's own weight.

 

My Lowe stats for period 1st June - 16th July 2017

 

 

Pretty good considering i have to fight Defenders, Type 4s, ST-Is and Tier 10s every battle.



jabster #704 Posted 16 July 2017 - 01:50 PM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 16 July 2017 - 11:57 AM, said:

 

It's hard for me to estimate how often an average player would win a match when top tier. Considering the average global winrate is 55% with this terrible MM and players will definitely win more when top tier than when bottom tier, I'd imagine it's at least somewhere between 60-70%. If things can't penetrate you despite you showing your weakspots it's really not that difficult to win.

 

 

So your opinion was based on winning 75% of top tier games but your guess as to how many they'd win is 60% to 70%?


Edited by jabster, 16 July 2017 - 02:03 PM.


GekkoGordon #705 Posted 16 July 2017 - 01:56 PM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 16 July 2017 - 01:57 PM, said:

Considering the average global winrate is 55% with this terrible MM and players

 

55% AVERAGE GLOBAL WINRATE with this terrible MM and players - Defender.

 

I get 55% with my Lowe with that same terrible MM and players, and i'm a unicum with a 3 marked Lowe.

 

So the average WoT bot gets a 55% winrate in his Defender while i have to carry my socks off in the Lowe to achieve the same 55% winrate.

 

Do you realize how fucked up Defender is now? I'd have over 60%+ WR in a Defender. 

 

edit: I don't want to brag, but giving you tanks.gg and statistical arguments obviously has no effect anymore.


Edited by GekkoGordon, 16 July 2017 - 01:58 PM.


Browarszky #706 Posted 16 July 2017 - 02:51 PM

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View PostGekkoGordon, on 16 July 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

 

55% AVERAGE GLOBAL WINRATE with this terrible MM and players - Defender.

 

I get 55% with my Lowe with that same terrible MM and players, and i'm a unicum with a 3 marked Lowe.

 

So the average WoT bot gets a 55% winrate in his Defender while i have to carry my socks off in the Lowe to achieve the same 55% winrate.

 

Do you realize how fucked up Defender is now? I'd have over 60%+ WR in a Defender. 

 

edit: I don't want to brag, but giving you tanks.gg and statistical arguments obviously has no effect anymore.

 

Where can I get one already? I don't mind if its slightly battle dinged.



ZlatanArKung #707 Posted 16 July 2017 - 02:54 PM

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View PostBrowarszky, on 16 July 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

 

Where can I get one already? I don't mind if its slightly battle dinged.

Defender? Maybe at Christmas. 

Otherwise never, WG kind of realised how OP it is and won't sell it again.



Long_Range_Sniper #708 Posted 16 July 2017 - 03:32 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 16 July 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

Defender? Maybe at Christmas. 

Otherwise never, WG kind of realised how OP it is and won't sell it again.

 

I know what people said following the Mutant sale, but I think it'll be more like the E25.

 

They've not said they won't sell it again but it will not be until everything else in the game has caught up.



Tr0gledyte #709 Posted 16 July 2017 - 04:04 PM

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View Postjabster, on 16 July 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

 

So your opinion was based on winning 75% of top tier games but your guess as to how many they'd win is 60% to 70%?

 

Excuse me, was that post directed towards you? 

 

Nope.

 

You are not adding anything to the conversation, merely disrupting it. I politely request you to stop. The whole point of the conversation is to exchange thoughts and possibly change them.


Edited by Tr0gledyte, 16 July 2017 - 04:26 PM.


jabster #710 Posted 16 July 2017 - 04:30 PM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 16 July 2017 - 03:04 PM, said:

 

Excuse me, was that post directed towards you? 

 

Nope.

 

You are not adding anything to the conversation, merely disrupting it. I politely request you to stop. The whole point of the conversation is to exchange thoughts and possibly change them.

 

Your thoughts were that the Defender wins 75% of its top tier games but your guess was that it wins 60% to 70%.



Noo_Noo #711 Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:31 PM

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View PostLong_Range_Sniper, on 16 July 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

 

It does, and tanks GG shows how it can cope in higher tiers quite well.

 

I set the tier IX and X tanks up as stock tanks, but gave the Defender vents/rammer/vstabs and prem ammo. You always have the option to press 2 in a higher tier game and look how the tier 8 Defender suddenly becomes quite competitive. When you then compare the armour it's not too far away from tanks one and two tiers higher. It loses out on HP for sure, but you can see how very easily it generates the wincurves that it does. When you then consider it's a premium tank so the economy is better no wonder you get the performance you see across all skill levels.

 

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Nice graphic. 

What is missed in this debate is the simple fact that the Defender is a Tier 8 tank and yet there are people that claim it's rubbish at Tier 10. 

I repeat its a tier 8 tank!!!! Not a Tier 10. 

Browarszky #712 Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:24 PM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 16 July 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

 

Nice graphic. 

What is missed in this debate is the simple fact that the Defender is a Tier 8 tank and yet there are people that claim it's rubbish at Tier 10. 

I repeat its a tier 8 tank!!!! Not a Tier 10. 

 

But.. based on the nice graphic it looks awfully close to tier 9 ST-1 and T-10....

brumbarr #713 Posted 16 July 2017 - 09:20 PM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 16 July 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

 

Nice graphic. 

What is missed in this debate is the simple fact that the Defender is a Tier 8 tank and yet there are people that claim it's rubbish at Tier 10. 

I repeat its a tier 8 tank!!!! Not a Tier 10. 

Its not really a tier 8 tank though, its a tier9, I can forgive you, a common mistake.



laulaur #714 Posted 16 July 2017 - 09:29 PM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 16 July 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

Its not really a tier 8 tank though, its a tier9, I can forgive you, a common mistake.

 

True.

ZlatanArKung #715 Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:25 PM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 16 July 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

Its not really a tier 8 tank though, its a tier9, I can forgive you, a common mistake.

 

Just so you know, some players seem to think that regular T8 mediums are stronger against T10 than this T9 tank. 



GekkoGordon #716 Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:36 PM

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"Lowe is pretty mediocre when top tier" - Tr0gledyte, July 2017

 

Guys, Lowe confirmed OP?

 



Tr0gledyte #717 Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:13 AM

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View PostGekkoGordon, on 16 July 2017 - 10:36 PM, said:

"Lowe is pretty mediocre when top tier" - Tr0gledyte, July 2017

 

Guys, Lowe confirmed OP?

 

 

Speed is extremely important to carry games and you know the LFP of the Lowe is crap. But hey I guess one good game without arty suddenly makes the Lowe excellent right?

 

Also on what map was that? You conveniently do not show this. If that was a Malinovka game I will suck your [edited]. My guess is it was a heavily urban based map seeing as two superheavies top the list.

 

I can also use your own argument against you; the global average winrate of the Lowe shows that it is pretty damn mediocre. 


Edited by Tr0gledyte, 17 July 2017 - 09:17 AM.


Noo_Noo #718 Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:28 AM

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Did anyone see Quickybabys stream last night? 

Quite amusing as I think he was in some agreement with Trog on here regarding the Defender in that it mauls everything at tier 8 but doesn't have the mobility and DPM at Tier 10. He said he would actually prefer the IS3. He did also say that it was a very strong tank, that's QB speak for OP by the way. This was right before he got set on fire and then mauled by a T95.

More interesting was how he started to notice the problems with Tier 8 MM. Quite interesting watching him being simply stomped on regularly through the night. the amount of arty focus was quite bad too. 

Ze_HOFF_fverhoef #719 Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:38 AM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 17 July 2017 - 08:28 AM, said:

Did anyone see Quickybabys stream last night? 

Quite amusing as I think he was in some agreement with Trog on here regarding the Defender in that it mauls everything at tier 8 but doesn't have the mobility and DPM at Tier 10. He said he would actually prefer the IS3. He did also say that it was a very strong tank, that's QB speak for OP by the way. This was right before he got set on fire and then mauled by a T95.

More interesting was how he started to notice the problems with Tier 8 MM. Quite interesting watching him being simply stomped on regularly through the night. the amount of arty focus was quite bad too. 

Question is... which tier 8 heavy tank does do well against tier 10? Especially the T95 is very tough when you meet one frontally.



Shnuks #720 Posted 17 July 2017 - 09:47 AM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 17 July 2017 - 09:28 AM, said:

Did anyone see Quickybabys stream last night? 

Quite amusing as I think he was in some agreement with Trog on here regarding the Defender in that it mauls everything at tier 8 but doesn't have the mobility and DPM at Tier 10. He said he would actually prefer the IS3. He did also say that it was a very strong tank, that's QB speak for OP by the way. This was right before he got set on fire and then mauled by a T95.

More interesting was how he started to notice the problems with Tier 8 MM. Quite interesting watching him being simply stomped on regularly through the night. the amount of arty focus was quite bad too. 

 

Wow he would prefer the best tank in the game the IS3. Defender confirmed weak.




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