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AMX ELC bis huge nerf

AMX ELC bis nerf light tank update

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Poll: AMX ELC nerf (346 members have cast votes)

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Are these changes necessary?

  1. NO, they aren't needed (260 votes [74.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 74.71%

  2. YES, they are needed (88 votes [25.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.29%

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r00barb #41 Posted 04 April 2017 - 05:51 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 04 April 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

Global win rates are largely meaningless ... 

 

So why do you always posts graphs showing win rate when they support your argument?

 

Oh, right, never mind, the answer was in the question.



gunslingerXXX #42 Posted 04 April 2017 - 07:39 PM

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View PostThrael7, on 04 April 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

Stop having fun. Get balanced instead.

Sad but true



Pansenmann #43 Posted 04 April 2017 - 07:50 PM

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View Postcaptainpigg, on 04 April 2017 - 04:17 AM, said:

Surprised that no-one has mentioned that will now get vertical stabilizers now. So a tank with camo, speed, view-range and high alpha is weak?

Circon seemed to get a good giggle out of its new stats. 

 

Vstab. yeah. *sigh*

 

I have already Rammer, Vents and Optics.

Do we get a 4th Equipment slot now?

 

If WG is so adamant about that +2 mm ( ELC should never be top tier )
they should move it to tier 6 unchanged and put something else on tier 5.

AMX 40 maybe with upgraded engine. :)



Bucifel #44 Posted 04 April 2017 - 07:51 PM

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i can agree...ELC needs a nerf with his new MM..but not so much like they nerfed it.

 

it needs a bit more power...thats all.

 

best gun is still with fixed turret and nerfed...so i think it needs a bit more power back.



Pansenmann #45 Posted 04 April 2017 - 07:53 PM

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... at least they don't nerf the ARL 44 anymore.

r00barb #46 Posted 04 April 2017 - 08:02 PM

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View PostPansenmann, on 04 April 2017 - 06:50 PM, said:

If WG is so adamant about that +2 mm ( ELC should never be top tier )

they should move it to tier 6 unchanged and put something else on tier 5.

AMX 40 maybe with upgraded engine. :)

 

I'd back that idea - the AMX 40 has a paper top speed of 50km/h but I never managed to reach that even driving down Himmelsdorf hill and as soon as the road levels out, you're back to crawling along.

 

The ELC could be branched off the light line at tier 6 in much the same way as the KV-2, perhaps linking to the French TD line. Though that might require some buffs to the French TDs to make them viable in anything other than a training room. :sceptic:



r00barb #47 Posted 04 April 2017 - 08:48 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 04 April 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

Guess I should grind out that third MoE before everything changes.

 

 

Replay

 



RaxipIx #48 Posted 04 April 2017 - 10:20 PM

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Am i the only one, who  thinks that  even with the nerf "cough" buff, with the new MM this thing will be stupidly Op, in every single person's hand, since most people who kept the tank have like 3-4 perk skilled crews on it, with all the fancy stuff and food?

 

Also the 75 MM gun does not seem as bad as initally a few thought, it might be a viable gun, considering the worst MM you can get is like 3 top tier  jap heavys on a city map, with 12 other that you can more or less pen without effort with both guns if you know what you are doing in this little devil.



Baldrickk #49 Posted 05 April 2017 - 07:45 AM

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View PostStrappster, on 04 April 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

 

View Posttajj7, on 04 April 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

Global win rates are largely meaningless ... 

 

So why do you always posts graphs showing win rate when they support your argument?

 

Oh, right, never mind, the answer was in the question.

 

Actually - It's because the global win-win rate is just one number.

 

If a tank is popular with the Unicums, it will score higher than one that is popular with tomatoes. 

But you get a similar effect with how strong the tank is; if it is a stronger tank, then it will do better than a weaker one.

 

Just looking at a tank's overall win rate can't tell you which scenario is in play, or how much of the result is one scenario or the other.

 

Win rate graphs for a tank show the distribution of Win rate by the player average.

You can see how the better players do in it, and how the not so good players do in it.

 

It gives you a much better picture of how that tank is doing.

 

Does it give the whole story? No.

Take the Cromwell for example; it has a strong WR graph, it is powerful but not really too OP.

Then take a look at the Cromwell B graph.

Cromwell B looks totally OP.

 

What's the difference?

Well... between the tanks?

Basically, nothing.

Between the setup of the tanks?

Cromwell B will almost always be fully equipped.  As a premium tank, it will be a 'keeper' so players will buy rammer, optics etc.

Cromwell B can use a player's best crew.

Cromwell B makes more money, so players can fire more premium rounds without making a loss.

 

So is the Cromwell B OP?



Baldrickk #50 Posted 05 April 2017 - 07:47 AM

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By the way, to the 2 or 3 guys who have said that it did:

ELC never met tier X.
It was never end of line like the T-50-2 or the Chaffee.

tajj7 #51 Posted 05 April 2017 - 08:20 AM

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View PostStrappster, on 04 April 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

 

So why do you always posts graphs showing win rate when they support your argument?

 

Oh, right, never mind, the answer was in the question.

 

Global win rate are not the same as skill adjusted graphs. 

 

A generic '49%' win rate tells you nothing of who is playing the tank, which is the whole point with the ELC, it's a tank played by a lot of new players so overall will perform fairly averagely, but is still very powerful if you vaguely know what you are doing.

 

Hence why it's a stat padding and sealclubbing tank. 



r00barb #52 Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:27 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

Global win rate are not the same as skill adjusted graphs. 

 

A generic '49%' win rate tells you nothing of who is playing the tank, which is the whole point with the ELC, it's a tank played by a lot of new players so overall will perform fairly averagely, but is still very powerful if you vaguely know what you are doing.

 

Hence why it's a stat padding and sealclubbing tank. 

 

You can make that argument to paint any tank as a stat-padding seal-clubber. The IS-3 line is recommended to most new players as one that is forgiving of mistakes and if you know what you're doing it's very powerful; is the IS-3 a seal-clubber or a popular choice for padding stats? How about the E5? For a year it was described as OP by lots of people yet it could still be weak when played by someone who didn't know what they were doing; is (was) that a stat-padding tank? How about your Centurion 7/1? British mediums are a popular choice for lots of players but you have to know what you're doing to do well in them; is that stat-padding?

 

Or does it only apply to lower tier tanks?



tajj7 #53 Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:52 AM

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View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

 

You can make that argument to paint any tank as a stat-padding seal-clubber. The IS-3 line is recommended to most new players as one that is forgiving of mistakes and if you know what you're doing it's very powerful; is the IS-3 a seal-clubber or a popular choice for padding stats? How about the E5? For a year it was described as OP by lots of people yet it could still be weak when played by someone who didn't know what they were doing; is (was) that a stat-padding tank? How about your Centurion 7/1? British mediums are a popular choice for lots of players but you have to know what you're doing to do well in them; is that stat-padding?

 

Or does it only apply to lower tier tanks?

 

The IS3 is just too strong. It's neither a stats padder or sealclubber, it's just a borderline OP tank. Same pretty much applies to the E5. 

 

Stat padding tanks produce high WN8 generally, they have top be good (so you can perform well in them) but generally played poorly by the masses, which is why most lights are easy to pad WN8 in. 

 

Sealclubbing requires seals to club, which generally means lower tiers where you exploit their inexperience and poor crews. 

 

So for most players they need to be lower tier because they aren't good enough to perform at higher tiers, also OP tanks are not stat padding tanks because if everyone does well in them the WN8 requirements will also be very high so no stats padding.

 

E50 and M46 Patton are examples of high tier stats padding tanks because they crap out WN8, they are (for some reason) played very badly in general but are actually excellent tanks if you know what you are doing.  If you want to get 3-4k WN8 without playing lights, then probably the 'easiest' way is to spam APCR in an E50 or M46 Patton. 

 

ELC is both a stats padding tank and a sealclubbing tank. Stats padding because you need to pen like 3 shots to get high WN8, sealclubbing because it's got high camo, high mobility and decent view range on tiers where people have inexperienced crews and don't know about the vision mechanics.

 

It's a clear padding tank, always has been which is why people have thousands of games in it. I'm sure they will all say it's just because they find the tank fun, but then KV-1S and old Hellcat were fun also.

 

ELC is right up there with the T67 as a padders choice tank, if you are likely to see any tank topping a players most played tanks then there is a high chance it will be T67, ELC, KV-1S (now KV-85), Hetzer and Hellcat.  With those tanks probably having a higher WR and WN8 than a players overall or at least prop up that players overall stats. 

 

And Cent 7/1 as padding tank :D crap tanks are not good padders. 

 

It would be no different if WG finally nerfed the T67, we'd probably get similar threads and I'd be laughing at those people as well.  Nothing more annoying when playing a tier 5 or 6 tank with a fresh crew and seeing some guy in his ELC or T67 with thousands of games played. And that is me, an experienced player who knows that they are doing, I can only imagine the amount of new players who probably quit the game after getting clubbed by all the ELCs and T67s. 

 

 



r00barb #54 Posted 05 April 2017 - 10:02 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 08:52 AM, said:

The IS3 is just too strong. It's neither a stats padder or sealclubber, it's just a borderline OP tank. Same pretty much applies to the E5. 

 

Stat padding tanks produce high WN8 generally, they have top be good (so you can perform well in them) but generally played poorly by the masses, which is why most lights are easy to pad WN8 in. 

 

Sealclubbing requires seals to club, which generally means lower tiers where you exploit their inexperience and poor crews. 

 

So for most players they need to be lower tier because they aren't good enough to perform at higher tiers, also OP tanks are not stat padding tanks because if everyone does well in them the WN8 requirements will also be very high so no stats padding.

 

E50 and M46 Patton are examples of high tier stats padding tanks because they crap out WN8, they are (for some reason) played very badly in general but are actually excellent tanks if you know what you are doing.  If you want to get 3-4k WN8 without playing lights, then probably the 'easiest' way is to spam APCR in an E50 or M46 Patton. 

 

ELC is both a stats padding tank and a sealclubbing tank. Stats padding because you need to pen like 3 shots to get high WN8, sealclubbing because it's got high camo, high mobility and decent view range on tiers where people have inexperienced crews and don't know about the vision mechanics.

 

It's a clear padding tank, always has been which is why people have thousands of games in it. I'm sure they will all say it's just because they find the tank fun, but then KV-1S and old Hellcat were fun also.

 

ELC is right up there with the T67 as a padders choice tank, if you are likely to see any tank topping a players most played tanks then there is a high chance it will be T67, ELC, KV-1S (now KV-85), Hetzer and Hellcat.  With those tanks probably having a higher WR and WN8 than a players overall or at least prop up that players overall stats. 

 

And Cent 7/1 as padding tank :D crap tanks are not good padders. 

 

It would be no different if WG finally nerfed the T67, we'd probably get similar threads and I'd be laughing at those people as well.  Nothing more annoying when playing a tier 5 or 6 tank with a fresh crew and seeing some guy in his ELC or T67 with thousands of games played. And that is me, an experienced player who knows that they are doing, I can only imagine the amount of new players who probably quit the game after getting clubbed by all the ELCs and T67s. 

 

I was replying to your point that if you know what you're doing against newer players, the tank is a stat-padder. You can make the same argument about any tank, we've all seen the threads complaining about players in high-tier tanks not knowing what they're doing, hence the Centurion 7/1 reference because you mention it in your signature.

 

You know what you're doing, you face plenty of people who don't and therefore by your own argument the Centurion 7/1 is a stat-padding tank. Qualifying your argument after the fact doesn't change that.

 

I'm sure the WN8 stats for all lights will be adjusted following 9.18 so it'll be interesting to see which tanks become the new padders of choice.



Baldrickk #55 Posted 05 April 2017 - 10:53 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

And Cent 7/1 as padding tank :D crap tanks are not good padders. 

They can be. 

 

I think the (tier 6) CGC only needs two full dmg shots on average to be purple.

Or something like that.  I've not actually played it myself. 



tajj7 #56 Posted 05 April 2017 - 11:18 AM

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View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 09:02 AM, said:

 

I was replying to your point that if you know what you're doing against newer players, the tank is a stat-padder. You can make the same argument about any tank, we've all seen the threads complaining about players in high-tier tanks not knowing what they're doing, hence the Centurion 7/1 reference because you mention it in your signature.

 

You know what you're doing, you face plenty of people who don't and therefore by your own argument the Centurion 7/1 is a stat-padding tank. Qualifying your argument after the fact doesn't change that.

 

I'm sure the WN8 stats for all lights will be adjusted following 9.18 so it'll be interesting to see which tanks become the new padders of choice.

 

You can't make the argument about any tank. 

 

Players on average are much better on tier 9, they on average have much better crews and most tanks are better than the Cent 7/1. Why the hell would anyone stats pad in a 7/1 when it's much easier to do it in much better tanks and much easier to do it in the lower tiers? 

 

The whole point of stat padding and seal clubbing is you get inflated stats above your overall skill level in a comfortable environment. If you have to work extra hard to do it, it's not stats padding.

 

You could make an argument that any experienced player with a good crew can stats pad and sealclub in low tiers in almost any tank, I'd probably agree with that. 

 

But again it's still easier to do it in more competitive and more exploitable tanks so you might as well combine the two.

 

Like why would anyone bother stats padding in say a Stug IV when they could do it so much easier in the T67. Like I said there is a reason why the likes of the ELC, T67 etc. are so popular, yes they are fun tanks, but they are also very exploitable tanks for easy stats padding and sealclubbing because of their characteristics. 

 

And yes it will be interesting to see the adjusted WN8s of lights now most have been buffed or given more favourable MM. 

 

 

View PostBaldrickk, on 05 April 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

They can be. 

 

I think the (tier 6) CGC only needs two full dmg shots on average to be purple.

Or something like that.  I've not actually played it myself. 

 

 

Not really because you have to work hard to do well, the CGC has such low expectations because it's so bad, not because it's generally played badly. 

 

Milki from our clan has 3 marks on the CGC, but his win rate and WN8 in it is still lower than his recents. 

 

 



r00barb #57 Posted 05 April 2017 - 11:27 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

Players on average are much better on tier 9 ...

 

I think this is a point where we shall have to agree to differ.

 

Sure, players on tier 9 generally have more experience, they have to due to the number of battles played in order to get there even if they did it by converting free xp earned in premium or elite vehicles on lower tiers but whether that makes them much better players is open to speculation.

 

And I agree that it's easier to pad stats lower down the tiers because you're often facing players with much less experience but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's impossible to pad in higher tiers if you're playing a tank you know well. Exploiting the strengths of a tank against opposition that may not have the same level of knowledge is independent of what tier you're doing it with.



tajj7 #58 Posted 05 April 2017 - 11:47 AM

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View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

 

 but whether that makes them much better players is open to speculation.

 

 

Just look at pretty much everyone's win rates at tier 5 compared to tier 9 and 10. it's harder to win games at tier 9 and 10 than it is at lower tiers, it's exactly why people stats pad their WRs at lower tiers.

 

I recently 3 marked the Churchill III, I pulled a 71% solo win rate, something I simply cannot match on tier 10. 

 

Your tier 5 WR is 53.55% from around 3k games, your tier 9 is 51.85% from around 800 games and 48.19% at tier 8 from again around 3k games. You can go through pretty much every player in this thread and I'm willing to bet you will see a similar pattern if they have decent enough samples.

 

I'll agree that whether this is solely down to better player ability on average is open to speculation, certainly the more experienced crews, higher view ranges, the greater pressure of being top tier may also be factors.

 

But it's still pretty evident that the game at higher tiers is harder, whatever you attribute that to. 

 

Which in turn makes it a poor stats padding environment, didn't say it was impossible though. Like I said for a certain class of player, the M46 Patton and E50 are WN8 padding tanks. 

 

And it certainly makes it a stretch for the Cent 7/1 to ever be a stats padding tank. 



r00barb #59 Posted 05 April 2017 - 11:53 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

Which in turn makes it a poor stats padding environment, didn't say it was impossible though. Like I said for a certain class of player, the M46 Patton and E50 are WN8 padding tanks. 

 

And it certainly makes it a stretch for the Cent 7/1 to ever be a stats padding tank. 

 

And I didn't say it was the optimum environment either.



TacticusMK2 #60 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:00 PM

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I'm with others on the make it a tier 6 premium part. Would make the tank fun for team battles/CW etc too.




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