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AMX ELC bis huge nerf

AMX ELC bis nerf light tank update

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Poll: AMX ELC nerf (347 members have cast votes)

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Are these changes necessary?

  1. NO, they aren't needed (261 votes [74.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 74.79%

  2. YES, they are needed (88 votes [25.21%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.21%

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eldrak #61 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:18 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 10:53 AM, said:

 

Your definitions of some of the commonly used terms on this forum seem to differ from what the rest of the forum think they mean.



mitoma333 #62 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:23 PM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 05 April 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

By the way, to the 2 or 3 guys who have said that it did:

ELC never met tier X.
It was never end of line like the T-50-2 or the Chaffee.

 

True, I don't remember pissing off E 100's but I do remember pissing of E 75's :p 

mitoma333 #63 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:32 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

 

Global win rate are not the same as skill adjusted graphs. 

 

A generic '49%' win rate tells you nothing of who is playing the tank, which is the whole point with the ELC, it's a tank played by a lot of new players so overall will perform fairly averagely, but is still very powerful if you vaguely know what you are doing.

 

Hence why it's a stat padding and sealclubbing tank. 

 

Continuing on what Strappster said,

 

You say a lot of one trick ponies play this tank. So you say: player that have played this tank over and over and over again have become OP strong with it.

Isn't that the same for all tanks? I'm thinking about the deathstar (british tier 10 TD) isn't that OP? Sure it has drawbacks but you don't seem to account for those and that gun is just hell on wheels. Or the t-54 a lot of one trick ponies over there as well. Or the E 75 with all it's armor or the T57 heavy that can clip all tier 8 tanks it meets with ease. Are they op then as well? Sure they all have drawbacks, but they also have some unique quality that could be deemed 'OP'.


Also if there are that many on trick ponies (there are quite a few). Do you really think that letting all of them, with their 3-4 skill crew and fully equipped ELC, play against tier 3 players (who have played the game for sometimes less then 2 hours) is a good idea?

 

I can understand that people consider this tank OP, because they don't think about the major drawbacks (the main one being: you [edited]up, you dead). But isn't it a better idea to put it at tier 6? I don't think anyone ever had a problem with the ELC matchmaking and this way you're not forcing newbie players in a situation where they are up against fully equipped one trick ponies.



r00barb #64 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:36 PM

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View Posteldrak, on 05 April 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

Your definitions of some of the commonly used terms on this forum seem to differ from what the rest of the forum think they mean.

 

I don't know, my use of blank space seems to be on point and in line with common forum usage.

 

Or did you mean to quote something so I'd have an idea of what you're referring to?



clixor #65 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:37 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 11:27 AM, said:

 

I think this is a point where we shall have to agree to differ.

 

Sure, players on tier 9 generally have more experience, they have to due to the number of battles played in order to get there even if they did it by converting free xp earned in premium or elite vehicles on lower tiers but whether that makes them much better players is open to speculation.

 

And I agree that it's easier to pad stats lower down the tiers because you're often facing players with much less experience but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's impossible to pad in higher tiers if you're playing a tank you know well. Exploiting the strengths of a tank against opposition that may not have the same level of knowledge is independent of what tier you're doing it with.

 

In the case of padding/clubbing the skill level of other players is not even always the issue. In mids tiers if you play with a good crew/equipment you already have a massive advantage over your your targets. 

 

b.t.w. if you want to get good win8, you can basically just play premium tanks, in general they are played really badly so even with modest av.dmg you are able to get unicom levels of win8.



mitoma333 #66 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:42 PM

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@tajj7

 

Also something I'm wondering about, if the ELC is really all that OP. Why have I never heard anyone complain about it? 

Like I've heard complaints about the t57 heavy, the E 75, IS 3, T67, artillery in general, O I exp ...

but never about the elc? 



kanoni_2015 #67 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:43 PM

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So i see you crying about its alpha end pen...Well exceptions to the rule will always exist!Then all tier 8 tanks will have 240 damage all tier 9 320 and tier 10 400.Is that variety?I dont see anyone crying to nerf the su100-y for example.The tank was fine the best choise would be to either move it one tier up or to nerf it slightly.I get that some of you get annoyed when a skilled player recks you in his elc or when you try to play it too you are too bad to do so but there is no reason to argue for it being op.The tank would be op if it hadn't changed at all with the new mm but they just needed to move it one tier up nothing else.The elc is a difficult tank to play even though it might not seem to be like that.Have you ever noticed that most players playing it are the good ones?This is what makes it look unbalanced to your eyes although it isn't.

Baldrickk #68 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:49 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

 

Not really because you have to work hard to do well, the CGC has such low expectations because it's so bad, not because it's generally played badly. 

 

Milki from our clan has 3 marks on the CGC, but his win rate and WN8 in it is still lower than his recents. 

Because you have to put effort in that stops it from being padding?

 

And Milki is a damn good player. 

The tanks that provide the best results for him may not be the same as for less skilled players.  And vice versa. 

 

There is also the question of how long ago and how skilled was he when he played it compared to now?



r00barb #69 Posted 05 April 2017 - 12:56 PM

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View Postclixor, on 05 April 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

In the case of padding/clubbing the skill level of other players is not even always the issue. In mids tiers if you play with a good crew/equipment you already have a massive advantage over your your targets.

 

Doesn't the same apply if my 2-skill crew in my WZ-120 that I've had for 10 battles are facing tier 9 and 10 tanks with 3 or 4-skill crew and a player who knows his tank from hundreds of battles?

 

View Postclixor, on 05 April 2017 - 11:37 AM, said:

b.t.w. if you want to get good win8, you can basically just play premium tanks, in general they are played really badly so even with modest av.dmg you are able to get unicom levels of win8.

 

I beg to differ. :)



tajj7 #70 Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:35 PM

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View Postmitoma333, on 05 April 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

 

Continuing on what Strappster said,

 

You say a lot of one trick ponies play this tank. So you say: player that have played this tank over and over and over again have become OP strong with it.

Isn't that the same for all tanks? I'm thinking about the deathstar (british tier 10 TD) isn't that OP? Sure it has drawbacks but you don't seem to account for those and that gun is just hell on wheels. Or the t-54 a lot of one trick ponies over there as well. Or the E 75 with all it's armor or the T57 heavy that can clip all tier 8 tanks it meets with ease. Are they op then as well? Sure they all have drawbacks, but they also have some unique quality that could be deemed 'OP'.


Also if there are that many on trick ponies (there are quite a few). Do you really think that letting all of them, with their 3-4 skill crew and fully equipped ELC, play against tier 3 players (who have played the game for sometimes less then 2 hours) is a good idea?

 

I can understand that people consider this tank OP, because they don't think about the major drawbacks (the main one being: you [edited]up, you dead). But isn't it a better idea to put it at tier 6? I don't think anyone ever had a problem with the ELC matchmaking and this way you're not forcing newbie players in a situation where they are up against fully equipped one trick ponies.

 

I'm pretty sure I said on page 1 that I thought it would have been better to have made it a tier 7 light.  I don't think the current ELC is fine, it's a bit like the E 25, it's a tank of extremes and badly balanced, in that it's hugely exploitable and basically broken in certain circumstances, but the unforgiving nature stops it from being OP. If it was a regular tier 7 with that gun, bit better DPM and more HP it would be a fine tier 7 light. 

 

And no I don't think it's a good idea all those same stats padders are now basically going to be seeing tier 3 and 4 tanks 70% of the time. Which is why I think it's nerfs are correct, if players like you and other people that have played the ELC a lot don't like these changes, you are going be playing it much less, which helps the problem.

 

That is why I think WG have over nerfed it (I think the 90mm needed nerfing heavily, maybe even going but the hp/ton didn't). 

 

View Posteldrak, on 05 April 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

Your definitions of some of the commonly used terms on this forum seem to differ from what the rest of the forum think they mean.

 

he's a dinger, they pretty much have to be difficult for difficults sake. 

 

View Postmitoma333, on 05 April 2017 - 11:42 AM, said:

@tajj7

 

Also something I'm wondering about, if the ELC is really all that OP. Why have I never heard anyone complain about it? 

Like I've heard complaints about the t57 heavy, the E 75, IS 3, T67, artillery in general, O I exp ...

but never about the elc? 

 

I've never heard anyone claim the E 75 is OP and it's been a long time since people have moaned about the T57.

 

I've heard plenty of people complain about the ELC because it's a complete pain to play against, but it's not OP, more broken. 

 

View Postkanoni_2015, on 05 April 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

So i see you crying about its alpha end pen...Well exceptions to the rule will always exist!Then all tier 8 tanks will have 240 damage all tier 9 320 and tier 10 400.Is that variety?I dont see anyone crying to nerf the su100-y for example.The tank was fine the best choise would be to either move it one tier up or to nerf it slightly.I get that some of you get annoyed when a skilled player recks you in his elc or when you try to play it too you are too bad to do so but there is no reason to argue for it being op.The tank would be op if it hadn't changed at all with the new mm but they just needed to move it one tier up nothing else.The elc is a difficult tank to play even though it might not seem to be like that.Have you ever noticed that most players playing it are the good ones?This is what makes it look unbalanced to your eyes although it isn't.

 

That is the thing, the people playing it are not very good in reality. Most green overall players with a decent crew could get decent results in the ELC. 

 

Hence why they stat pad in in the ELC or T67, stats padders are not good players, you see that when they attempt to play higher tiers in more balanced tank and suddenly the high WN8 and WR they get in the T67 plummets. 

 

View PostBaldrickk, on 05 April 2017 - 11:49 AM, said:

Because you have to put effort in that stops it from being padding?

 

And Milki is a damn good player. 

The tanks that provide the best results for him may not be the same as for less skilled players.  And vice versa. 

 

There is also the question of how long ago and how skilled was he when he played it compared to now?

 

Pretty much yes, you pad to get more in stats from your current level of play without actually having to play any better, if you have to work hard only to achieve similar recents you are not padding very well.

 

IIRC he did it fairly recently and he's been playing at super unicum recents for quite a while. 



r00barb #71 Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:45 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

And no I don't think it's a good idea all those same stats padders are now basically going to be seeing tier 3 and 4 tanks 70% of the time. Which is why I think it's nerfs are correct, if players like you and other people that have played the ELC a lot don't like these changes, you are going be playing it much less, which helps the problem. 

 

Personally I liked it because I could play it as a scout and getting most of my xp by spotting, as can be seen in the sample replay I put up when I got my third mark. Playing it against tier 3 and 4 opposition means little to me because there's no real challenge in playing scout against players who are still learning the game.

 

That's why I'm opposed to the changes. I have no idea what it does to my stats, though as spotting doesn't get included in WN8 it's hardly padding them.

 

We had a similar discussion before when I said I was buying the M56 Scorpion because it looks like fun. The ELC was fun for me because I could play sneaky scout and outwit tier 8 enemies by relocating to where they weren't expecting me. That's the fun I got from playing it; you might have a different approach that's fun for you and I wouldn't think of saying that your way is wrong yet that's what I read about my way time and time again.

 

View Post tajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 01:35 PM, said:

he's a dinger, they pretty much have to be difficult for difficults sake. 

 

As opposed to putting forward an argument and continually qualifying and adjusting it before accusing someone who disagrees with you of trolling. :rolleyes:



tajj7 #72 Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:54 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

As opposed to putting forward an argument and continually qualifying and adjusting it before accusing someone who disagrees with you of trolling. :rolleyes:

 

I didn't accuse you of trolling, I said you were difficult because instead of dealing with the argument (which I haven't changed at all) you argued a semantic on what qualifies as stats padding, when it's a pretty well known term on the forums and in game, as Eldrak pointed out.

 



r00barb #73 Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:00 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 01:54 PM, said:

I didn't accuse you of trolling, I said you were difficult because instead of dealing with the argument (which I haven't changed at all) you argued a semantic on what qualifies as stats padding, when it's a pretty well known term on the forums and in game, as Eldrak pointed out.

 

Nope.

 

View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

You can make that argument to paint any tank as a stat-padding seal-clubber.

 

My post was in reply to your post about stat-padding, pointing out that your argument could be applied to a much wider range of tanks. I didn't attempt to redefine anything, which is why I asked eldrak what he was referring to because his quote was blank.

 

On the other hand, you've gone on to add further clauses to your description of stat-padding so if anyone's being difficult here, it's you.



tajj7 #74 Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:06 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

 

Nope.

 

 

My post was in reply to your post about stat-padding, pointing out that your argument could be applied to a much wider range of tanks. I didn't attempt to redefine anything, which is why I asked eldrak what he was referring to because his quote was blank.

 

On the other hand, you've gone on to add further clauses to your description of stat-padding so if anyone's being difficult here, it's you.

 

Nope.

 

You tried to make stat padding apply to wider bunch of tanks based on your wonky understanding of the term.

 

I didn't change any clauses to anything. What stat padding and what tanks are used for it are widely known by the forum and community, ELC being on of the well known ones. 



mitoma333 #75 Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:08 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 02:35 PM, said:

 

I'm pretty sure I said on page 1 that I thought it would have been better to have made it a tier 7 light.  I don't think the current ELC is fine, it's a bit like the E 25, it's a tank of extremes and badly balanced, in that it's hugely exploitable and basically broken in certain circumstances, but the unforgiving nature stops it from being OP. If it was a regular tier 7 with that gun, bit better DPM and more HP it would be a fine tier 7 light. 

 

So just because a tank shines in certain circumstances it should be nerfed? What I'm getting from this is that you want every single tank to be the same, right? Same damage, penetration, speed? Because if a tank has some extreme qualities but is weaker in other parts it's OP? Also it's funny how you keep talking about a tank based purely on it's paper stats, or are you telling me that in less the 50 games you completely understand a tank? 

 

And no I don't think it's a good idea all those same stats padders are now basically going to be seeing tier 3 and 4 tanks 70% of the time. Which is why I think it's nerfs are correct, if players like you and other people that have played the ELC a lot don't like these changes, you are going be playing it much less, which helps the problem.

 

What you'll get is a lot of pissed of complaints, just sumply the fact that the voting is so close indicated that this change is a bad one. Do a poll about if arty needed to be changed and it won't be this close.

 

That is why I think WG have over nerfed it (I think the 90mm needed nerfing heavily, maybe even going but the hp/ton didn't). 

 

 

I've never heard anyone claim the E 75 is OP and it's been a long time since people have moaned about the T57.

 

I've heard plenty of people complain about the ELC because it's a complete pain to play against, but it's not OP, more broken. 

 

I've never heard complaints about the ELC, not in game, not on youtube, not in the forums. It's a strong tank, because it's a unique tank, you can't fight it like any other tank because it's not like any other tank.

Also explain to me: if the elc is really that OP why don't I see more of them? Back in the day when type59 was strong you couldn't go 2 tier 8 games without running into them, but with the ELC that's not rlly the case?

 



r00barb #76 Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:20 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

You tried to make stat padding apply to wider bunch of tanks based on your wonky understanding of the term.

 

Hmm, it seems that in addition to finding fun in different ways, you have a different way of reading words too.

 

I'm not trying to make stat-padding apply to anything; I only pointed out that your argument could be used in that way. Though I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine all those threads complaining about the WN8 adjustments to the E50 and M46 Patton a few weeks ago. Here's one that runs to 14 pages, for example.

 

Regardless, you went on to accuse me of attempting to redefine terms despite my pointing out repeatedly what I said in the first place. Then you dismiss me as being difficult while adding more and more detail to your argument when we could have avoided all this if you'd said, "fair point, I'm talking about ..." back then.

 

My being a Dinger is immaterial; I'm only in the clan for the groupies. Or should that be groupers?



tajj7 #77 Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:40 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

 

Hmm, it seems that in addition to finding fun in different ways, you have a different way of reading words too.

 

I'm not trying to make stat-padding apply to anything; I only pointed out that your argument could be used in that way. Though I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine all those threads complaining about the WN8 adjustments to the E50 and M46 Patton a few weeks ago. Here's one that runs to 14 pages, for example.

 

Regardless, you went on to accuse me of attempting to redefine terms despite my pointing out repeatedly what I said in the first place. Then you dismiss me as being difficult while adding more and more detail to your argument when we could have avoided all this if you'd said, "fair point, I'm talking about ..." back then.

 

My being a Dinger is immaterial; I'm only in the clan for the groupies. Or should that be groupers?

 

Nope.

 

View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

 it's a tank played by a lot of new players so overall will perform fairly averagely, but is still very powerful if you vaguely know what you are doing.

 

Hence why it's a stat padding and sealclubbing tank. 

 

My original comment basically outlines what makes a good stat padding tank, played poorly by newer players, but very powerful in the right hands. 

 

Your reply -

 

View PostStrappster, on 05 April 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

You can make that argument to paint any tank as a stat-padding seal-clubber. The IS-3 line is recommended to most new players as one that is forgiving of mistakes and if you know what you're doing it's very powerful; is the IS-3 a seal-clubber or a popular choice for padding stats? How about the E5? For a year it was described as OP by lots of people yet it could still be weak when played by someone who didn't know what they were doing; is (was) that a stat-padding tank? How about your Centurion 7/1? British mediums are a popular choice for lots of players but you have to know what you're doing to do well in them; is that stat-padding?

 

Or does it only apply to lower tier tanks?

 

 

None of those tanks there match what I said, you just went with the 'know what you are doing' part. 

 

Since when has the Cent 7/1 ever been described as 'very powerful'? Since when our tier 8-10 tanks played by new players? Since when is the IS3 played poorly by the masses? 

 

You basically described playing well = stats padding. 

 

My reasoning was sound, you tried to incorrectly apply to all tanks, even though it made no sense. 

 


Edited by tajj7, 05 April 2017 - 03:42 PM.


r00barb #78 Posted 05 April 2017 - 03:55 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

None of those tanks there match what I said, you just went with the 'know what you are doing' part.

 

:facepalm: ... because that was the part of your post I was referring to ...

 

View Posttajj7, on 05 April 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Since when has the Cent 7/1 ever been described as 'very powerful'? Since when our tier 8-10 tanks played by new players? Since when is the IS3 played poorly by the masses?

 

Are you saying that every IS-3 driver is a skilled player? Or that everyone playing in a tier 8-10 tank knows what they're doing? Why do so many omg bad team threads get posted here if that's the case?

 

As for the Cent 7/1 being 'very powerful', did I say that? Or did I say, "but you have to know what you're doing to do well" about British mediums?

 

Your original point was, "... but is still very powerful if you vaguely know what you are doing." Can you not see that caveat can be applied to practically any tank? An AMX 40 can be daunting when top tier and played by someone who knows how to angle the armour. That's what I've been trying to say all along and instead you've been redressing my posts as an attempt to redefine stat-padding and accusing me of disagreeing with you to be difficult.



BP_OMowe #79 Posted 05 April 2017 - 04:12 PM

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It's really simple: if the historical tank is not fitting for its tier, it should get moved to a proper one. In the case of the ELC, it should go to tier VI.

Given the new MM coming, it will spend most of it's time as bottom- or mid tier, and while it has a powerful gun, unlike a lot of the tier VI most tier IV would be able to penetrate it.

It should receive siege mode for full turret traverse, bringing it more in line with the historical original tank, which also means no gun stabiliser.

 

I just realised I should expand the basis for my opinion above.

WoT has never been an arcade game, but a cross between a simplified simulator and a real-time tactical board-game, with the marketing empathising the ability for the player "to drive the iconic, historical tanks".

Currently, it seems like the game is heading towards a pay-to-win third person shooter, with the diversity of the tanks more and more removed by replacing the actual tanks with some kind of reskinned templates (tank: light, tier so-and-so, add 3D-model of desired nationality).

There are a lot of fantasy shooters on the market, but very few semi-historical ones.


Edited by BP_OMowe, 05 April 2017 - 04:41 PM.


mitoma333 #80 Posted 05 April 2017 - 04:55 PM

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Personally I would like to see it moved up a tier without any changes, no ELC driver ever complained about matchmaking and outplaying tier 8's is funny as hell especially those japs that just can't get their gun down :p




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