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KV-5 post 9.18 patch.


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Draconic #1 Posted 16 May 2017 - 10:51 AM

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Hello friends. I'm kinda surprised nobody rose his hand about the current status of KV-5. I rarely see anyone driving it and maybe the concerns I'm going to express here are the main reason. We all know the pros and cons of that tank - heavily armored house on tracks, but with severe weak spots, good RPM gun, but inaccurate and with puny 167 penetration. These drawbacks (most notably the gun) were compensated/balanced by preferential MM - limited to tier 9 and seeing weaker enemies, as low as tier 6. So, we also know how this was working: KV-5 drivers trying their best to hide the R2D2 or the commander cupola weak spots (not that you can hide a house), while trying to aim for the enemy weak spots with their lackluster penetration gun. That was working, without breaking any balance. Even if you can't hit the right spot from the first shot, you had the good RPM working for you - so you could hit it with next or the next shot, and that was possible, because you had the armor to remedy for your missed shots. If that was not enough, you could play like a steel wall, slowing down enemy advance, while allowing your artillery to pound them. What changed post 9.18? Honestly everything, it's just not the same tank anymore. KV-5 was power creeped with every new patch - by new more and more powerful  premiums, new ridiculously powerful heavy lines etc. but it still managed to hold its own for the reasons I stated above. Not anymore. Now, with the new MM KV-5 is systematically and almost exclusively thrown in tier 8-9 matches, without lesser enemies and where it simply can't compete. I'm talking about being thrown against several Mauschen, Type 4, VK1001P, garnished with few Object 252Us  and that's like 92% of the games. Yep sometimes it still manages to shine, I'm still managing to hit here and there, if I aim very precisely for a weak spot (as long as you can talk about precision with 0.43 gun and aim, while being targeted by 250+ pen and ~500 alpha gun), but these moments are more and more rare. There's no need to hide any weak spot anymore, you're being hit and penetrated on regular basis everywhere, you can't return fire and hold any enemy heavy tank, you are just being driven over by the aforementioned heavies. And now, post 9.18 you can't even rely on artillery to take your enemies out, while you're slowing them - it cripples them, giving you the task to finish them, but you simply can't. I don't know what should be done, I'm not writing this with the appeal for particular buff (which would be okay anyway), but more like to stress out the need of attention for this tank, to be somehow reconsidered, overhauled, reworked etc. Thank you.

Edited by Draconic, 16 May 2017 - 10:53 AM.


Titaniumas #2 Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM

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You were scammed. As easy as that.

 

The KV-5 has NEVER been a good tank, not even when gold shells were for gold, cause with 167mm of pen and a laughable 217mm with gold you have NEVER been able to pen ANYTHING that was higher than tier 6 or 7.

 

i've played 3 matches today with it. My maximum damage was 1200, and it was in a match where I shot 17 shots, hit 17, penned 6. All those pens were against the turrett roof of other tier8s with GOLD, and almost all the shots were with gold. 

 

Then an E75 came. I couldnt even pen the lower plate, I bounced 3 times on his roof, while he destroyed me. If this gun had 190mm of pen and 250mm with gold like the superpershing, it would be playable. Not good, but playable.

 

Yes, we have been scammed. Wargaming is not going to buff it, they want u to buy other more modern premiums, so you are better off selling it for credits, or you could have switched it for a 112 while you could before today. I switched fv4202 and cdc for M4Rev and Sta-2. Not regretting it.

 

The kv5 is by far the worst tier 8 premium in the game, it has nothing good, nothing at all, every tier 8 pens you frontally without breaking a sweat and the r2d2 is penned by tier 7s or 6 shooting gold, This tank is just like the cdc, the fv4202, the jagd88mm. A scam.


Edited by Titaniumas, 16 May 2017 - 11:31 AM.


Eokokok #3 Posted 16 May 2017 - 11:38 AM

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Yet another random rant at MM, legit reason for rant, very tank relevant...

 

I guess if you got 3/5/7 games top tiered 10 times in a row you would cry how OP KV-5 is?



Francesco_Totti_ #4 Posted 16 May 2017 - 12:00 PM

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Preferential matchmaking is dead for now. It used to be my favorite format until the last patch but now you meet mostly tier 8-9 tanks since the patch and that's not where you want to be. Normal matchmaking tanks see max. 3 tier 10 tanks but are better equipped to deal with the huge swarms of tier 8-9 tanks so they are in a better position now.

 

Wargaming needs to fix this somehow, either by improving the matchmaking for the PMM tanks or outright buffing them because they aren't worth playing now. For now, RIP PMM... :(

 

 



Antaris #5 Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:29 PM

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View PostTitaniumas, on 16 May 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

You were scammed. As easy as that.

 

The KV-5 has NEVER been a good tank, not even when gold shells were for gold, cause with 167mm of pen and a laughable 217mm with gold you have NEVER been able to pen ANYTHING that was higher than tier 6 or 7.

....

Yes, we have been scammed. Wargaming is not going to buff it, they want u to buy other more modern premiums, so you are better off selling it for credits, or you could have switched it for a 112 while you could before today. I switched fv4202 and cdc for M4Rev and Sta-2. Not regretting it.

 

The kv5 is by far the worst tier 8 premium in the game, it has nothing good, nothing at all, every tier 8 pens you frontally without breaking a sweat and the r2d2 is penned by tier 7s or 6 shooting gold, This tank is just like the cdc, the fv4202, the jagd88mm. A scam.

And the conclusion is: Never buy a "premium" tank with real money.

As the WG sells us a virtual goods, let's buy them only with virtual money :)



Eila_Juutilainen #6 Posted 16 May 2017 - 08:51 PM

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View PostTitaniumas, on 16 May 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

You were scammed. As easy as that.

 

The KV-5 has NEVER been a good tank, not even when gold shells were for gold, cause with 167mm of pen and a laughable 217mm with gold you have NEVER been able to pen ANYTHING that was higher than tier 6 or 7.

 

Performance graphs from the last month say that it's actually still performing well: http://wot-news.com/...u/ussr/R54_KV-5

Recent performance actually seems to have gone up, so I'm going to say that your claims are a bit unfounded.


Edited by Eila_Juutilainen, 16 May 2017 - 09:14 PM.


Titaniumas #7 Posted 17 May 2017 - 12:31 AM

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View PostAntaris, on 16 May 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

View PostTitaniumas, on 16 May 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

You were scammed. As easy as that.

 

The KV-5 has NEVER been a good tank, not even when gold shells were for gold, cause with 167mm of pen and a laughable 217mm with gold you have NEVER been able to pen ANYTHING that was higher than tier 6 or 7.

....

Yes, we have been scammed. Wargaming is not going to buff it, they want u to buy other more modern premiums, so you are better off selling it for credits, or you could have switched it for a 112 while you could before today. I switched fv4202 and cdc for M4Rev and Sta-2. Not regretting it.

 

The kv5 is by far the worst tier 8 premium in the game, it has nothing good, nothing at all, every tier 8 pens you frontally without breaking a sweat and the r2d2 is penned by tier 7s or 6 shooting gold, This tank is just like the cdc, the fv4202, the jagd88mm. A scam.

And the conclusion is: Never buy a "premium" tank with real money.

As the WG sells us a virtual goods, let's buy them only with virtual money :)

 

Very true. But I have an even better idea : let everybody know to NOT buy them. Ofc talking about the KV5 u cannot buy it anymore but since I am here, why not.

 

The Kv5 is also at position number 25 for damage dealt per match in ALL THE tier8 premiums (the Fv4202, another WG scam cause of the false turrett armor info they give, is at 33 though). Barely above 1k.

 

About win rate, its situated at a solid 29th......

 

http://www.vbaddict....t_ratio&server=

 

and, the most important one, the NET income, since u have to shoot basically only gold ammo, 30th.

 

http://www.vbaddict....reditsn&server=

 

I have no idea why the IS-5 is still in the game, why it hasnt been nerfed, same with the defender.

 

There u go, LAST position in all the tier8 premiums. For what ? but ofc, with 167mm of penetration, FOR PENETRATION RATE

 

http://www.vbaddict....pierced&server=

 

However there is a statistic in which the kv5 towers, oh, for sure. The statistic in which u want ur tank to be in the top 5.

OPERATING COSTS

 

http://www.vbaddict....g_costs&server=

 

But more than ever, why has the KV5 167mm of pen, and 217 with gold. No, at tier 9 there is no excuse for that. This is a scam.

 

 


Edited by Titaniumas, 17 May 2017 - 01:03 AM.


Eila_Juutilainen #8 Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:14 AM

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Flat average winrates are a terribly inaccurate measurement of tank performance. If a tank is almost exclusively driven by tomatoes, it's gonna score low. Similarly, CW reward tanks like IS-5 prety much all score extremely high because basically only good players have them, even if the tanks are not actually good - if only people with 55% WR or higher drive a tank, it's gonna win a lot. Average winrate is a worthless metric.

 

The site I linked shows you the winrate of the tank plotted against the winrates of it's players. And it shows that at most player levels, people are scoring higher than their everage winrate in KV-5. Only really bad players underperform compared to  their average.

That means the tank is actually doing pretty good.


Edited by Eila_Juutilainen, 17 May 2017 - 06:19 AM.


leggasiini #9 Posted 17 May 2017 - 06:28 AM

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Yeah from what i heard IS-5 isnt really anything special. Think IS-3A, its AFAIK very similar to it.

 

The new mm definitely hurted KV-5 quite alot. It still wins moderately well just because its fast + it takes hits, but i struggle to deal damage with it. My DPG spiked down by 30-40 after the patch when i played it ~30 battles, so go figure.


Edited by leggasiini, 17 May 2017 - 06:28 AM.


Eila_Juutilainen #10 Posted 17 May 2017 - 08:01 AM

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View Postleggasiini, on 17 May 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

Yeah from what i heard IS-5 isnt really anything special. Think IS-3A, its AFAIK very similar to it.

 

Yeah, I heard similar things. Then again, neither of them are /bad/ tanks by any stretch.

 

 

View Postleggasiini, on 17 May 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

The new mm definitely hurted KV-5 quite alot. It still wins moderately well just because its fast + it takes hits, but i struggle to deal damage with it. My DPG spiked down by 30-40 after the patch when i played it ~30 battles, so go figure.

 

I'm gonna reserve judgement on that until we've had some time to let the fluctuations and spikes instats smooth out a bit. Also I have exams so not much time to actually play the game (and when I do it's Type 4 because TotT special).

Still, initial results did show that KV-5's performance over the last month is considerably higher than it's averages from before and those weren't too bad to begin with.



Titaniumas #11 Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:35 AM

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The Kv5 is doing absurdly bad under EVERY aspect that is positive for the game. 

 

And not only its performing horribly, but its doing it constantly. Luckily for all the players out there it cannot be bought anymore so nobody else can be scammed again. 

There is not a single positive stat in which the Kv5 isnt in the last 5. of all 32 premium tanks.

This includes win rate, but also ALL the others.

In this game there is also no reward, in both exp or credits, for absorbing damage, so the only thing it can MODERATELY do, cause everyone will shoot gold at ur turrett anyway and the r2d2, gets no reward.

 

also http://wot-news.com/...u/ussr/R54_KV-5 . From 2012, not last month. 

 

the tomatoes, the really bad ones are actually the ones enhancing the stats of this tank, cause it allows them to survive a BIT more. This tank is a disaster for every good player out there.

 

 

 

 

 

 



leggasiini #12 Posted 17 May 2017 - 10:52 AM

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View PostEila_Juutilainen, on 17 May 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'm gonna reserve judgement on that until we've had some time to let the fluctuations and spikes instats smooth out a bit. Also I have exams so not much time to actually play the game (and when I do it's Type 4 because TotT special).

Still, initial results did show that KV-5's performance over the last month is considerably higher than it's averages from before and those weren't too bad to begin with.

 

Definitely worse overall. Big reason why KV-5 was able to be succesful was ability to bully lowtiers. KV-5 now might meet no more than 5 tier 9s, but it gets MUCH more into full tier-8 matches as well as it gets more to matches with tier 9s than before. It meets lowtiers less.

 

Its direct nerf. I have no idea how the hell KV-5 would perform better. Maybe it factors earlier months, too, but more or less everyone i have talked for agrees that low-pen pref MM premiums are notably worse after MM changes.



Draconic #13 Posted 17 May 2017 - 11:36 AM

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View PostEila_Juutilainen, on 16 May 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

 

Performance graphs from the last month say that it's actually still performing well: http://wot-news.com/...u/ussr/R54_KV-5

Recent performance actually seems to have gone up, so I'm going to say that your claims are a bit unfounded.

 

I strongly believe, that any statistic showing KV-5 performance rise up, also encompasses the period before patch 9.18. I may sound immodest, but I can judge by my own stats with the tank, since I was doing relatively well in it. Actually better than my overall performance. So, I was using that tank for its main purpose - earning credits and having some fun in the process. Immediately after the update hit, things changed, my performance with KV-5 nosedived (so far with 3%+), but that's not the main problem - the fun factor is completely gone, the credit income went dry (after all that's the sole purpose of premium vehicles, right?) and now it's just a struggle to be of any use for the team. 

Eila_Juutilainen #14 Posted 17 May 2017 - 02:51 PM

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View PostDraconic, on 17 May 2017 - 11:36 AM, said:

 

I strongly believe, that any statistic showing KV-5 performance rise up, also encompasses the period before patch 9.18.

 

The green line is the period from... April 17 to May 15, currently. If you looked at the green line today and also yesterday, you can actually see it changed shape - the performance for around 50% WR players dipped a bit but I think it went up for 45% and below? Yesterday it was much more consistent. The black line on the other hand is KV-5 performance over a very long time, so the black line also would have stats from before KV-5's armour buff. The black line generally doesn't move very much unless something drastic happens.

But you can set dates or even sort out players with battlecount requirements and have it plot additional graphs. It's a really handy tool for getting accurate tank performance data.

 

As for the rest of your post, unfortunately it's entirely possible that you just got really unlucky. My best advice would be to just wait and see how it goes over a longer period of time.

I mean, what in the 9.18 patch would have specifically hit KV-5 performance so hard? It can't be new premiums, they've been here for months. New super-heavy tanks with lots of armour? Also been a while already.


Edited by Eila_Juutilainen, 17 May 2017 - 03:07 PM.


Eokokok #15 Posted 17 May 2017 - 02:55 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 17 May 2017 - 09:52 AM, said:

 

Definitely worse overall. Big reason why KV-5 was able to be succesful was ability to bully lowtiers. KV-5 now might meet no more than 5 tier 9s, but it gets MUCH more into full tier-8 matches as well as it gets more to matches with tier 9s than before. It meets lowtiers less.

 

Its direct nerf. I have no idea how the hell KV-5 would perform better. Maybe it factors earlier months, too, but more or less everyone i have talked for agrees that low-pen pref MM premiums are notably worse after MM changes.

 

And what do you base your claim that it meets the tier 8 battles only more then it used to? Because so far we have anegdotal evidence about it how MM works with limited MM tanks, and on top of that the story goes both ways.



Murad_Zashitnik #16 Posted 20 May 2017 - 07:45 AM

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Hello everyone!

From my experience, i like KV 5 a lot. Yes, true, it has many weaknesses, but if one thing could be improved, that has to be the gun. It is really very challenging to play such a heavy tank like a medium by trying to shoot other heavies in the sides or rear. Or by trying to shoot at weak spots, which i dont mind doing but the gun's stats dont allow to do that comfortably. Also, due to low pen i find myself chasing mediums in order to have some chance at penetrating something :)

 

I highly recommend that WG pays attention to this tank and makes some improvements to its gun as a minimum.

 

Thanks!

 



InfernoJack #17 Posted 29 May 2017 - 04:18 PM

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KV5 is my most played tank, at time of writing this 3,009 battles. Probably so many because its always been a fun tank for me. Sure it's not the most competitive (even less so now with all the new power creeped premiums) but it is OK for making credits, crew training, and as I said it's fun, especially when you pull off those ram kills! I've got alright stats with it and two stars on the barrel. So with all this in mind it's fair to say I have at least some idea how to play this tank. Its forced me to learn weakspots, as I make an effort to use as little premium ammo as possible. Of course there are still times when you have no choice and must use premium ammo, which does kind of defeat the point of playing premium tanks in the first place: to make credits.

 

I however have also noticed my performance in the KV5 dropping since the 9.18 patch. I feel this is mainly due to the MM because almost every game I've been in has been either full tier 8 battle, or tier 9/8 battle. I've had very few tier 8/7 battles or tier 8/7/6 battles, which is where the tank really shines. Of course every tank performs better when its top tier in a battle, but the KV5 is one of the tanks that you really feel that difference in, and that is due to the gun. In addition the mass influx of new power creeped premium tanks is not helping the KV5 situation.

 

The penetration of the gun (167mm, or 219mm with gold) is the driving factor in why this tank is struggling. This combined with the poor accuracy and aim time (0.42m and 2.74s respectively) means in order to get the gun to work you must get close. Trying to use this gun over distance is a waste of time, as the poor accuracy comes into effect and the already low penetration shells loosing even more penetration over distance. Not to mention the awful shell velocity of 830.

 

Getting close allows you to aim at weakspots and have at least some chance of penetrating, and your good all round armour (if angled well) can block lots of incoming fire. However this is a double edged sword, as getting close allows the enemy to much more easily hit your massive R2D2 radio operator weakspot. Even if you can find a nice place to sidescrape and hide the droid, any enemy tank with 200mm of penetration can reliably go right through the front of your turret or gun mantle, even if you are using the full -7 degrees of gun depression, as the very slight angle of the turret front doesn't increase the effective thickness much.

 

Taking this in account I believe that the KV5 needs one of the two following series of changes. Not both, but either one could make this tank semi-competitive again.

 

1. Increase frontal turret armour from 180mm to 200mm, and increase the guns penetration from 167/219 to 183/235. (I've taken these values from the gun of the SU-100M1, as I feel it would work on the KV5 giving it a boost but not overdoing it. These changes would allow the KV5 to get close, sidescrape, while having a decent chance to do some damage. At the same time the enemy would have a harder time going through the turret front and gun mantle. This also would keep intact the unique flavour of the KV5, retaining it's infamous droid weakspot and relatively weak gun

 

2. Improve accuracy from 0.42m to 0.36m; Improve aiming time from 2.74s to 2.3s; Increase shell velocity from 830 to 1,043; Decrease premium shell cost from 4,400 to 3.600; Increase droid armour from 140mm to 180mm; Improve gun depression from -7 degrees to -8 degrees; Improve terrain resistances hard/medium/soft from 1.21/1.53/2.74 to 1.05/1.25/2.21. (This whole series of changes is made to increase the overall performance of the KV5, while keeping the distinctive weak penetration. Improving the accuracy, aim time and shell velocity to the same as the 107mm gun on the KV4 allows for at least some chance of hitting enemy weakspots, which will still be necessary with only 167/219mm of penetration, or hitting moving targets over mid-long range. Firing some premium rounds will still be needed, so lowering the cost a little would allow the KV5 to still make good credits, which after all is one of the reasons for playing it. Aside from the poor gun, the droid weakspot is the other major downside to the KV5. Effectively removing it by making it the same thickness as the rest of the front armour would bring the KV5 in line more with the Japanese heavies, on which the droids are not weakspots. The enemy team would still have the opportunity to hit your remaining weakspots, so the cupolas on top of the turret and the front facing plate of the engine behind the turret, or with enough penetration simply shoot you through the front of the turret. Improved gun depression gives a little more needed flexibility and a tiny improvement at ricochet chance if you are using the full extent of the depression. As for the terrain resistances, I remember long ago the KV5 having good mobility for such a heavy tank, being able to keep up with my friends VK4502A when we used to play together. With changes being made to the game over time the KV5 now feels very sluggish. It needs a little more mobility, which would also help to aim those downhill ram attempts!)

 

Sorry for the long post wall of text, but let me know which option you think would be best, or maybe you have another alternative idea.

 

 

 



monxteri #18 Posted 30 May 2017 - 10:19 PM

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I rolled my KV-5 out for a few matches tonight, and I gotta say if you get unlucky, it's painful. Corridor maps against new t8 prem heavies, not fun. Tried sidescraping, works until the enemy decides to turn my tank into swiss cheese with premium ammo. Can't expose turret when sidescraping and settling to just tanking damage, it's not very exciting gameplay to be honest.

Feels like powercreep hit KV-5 hard, since the new premium heavies and superheavy tank trees.

KV-5 has it's moments, but those moments are much more rare compared to the time premiums were all about that premium MM. (which was a long time ago).

 

After several cringefest matches, I got to roflstomp a few tier 6's, which was nice.


Edited by monxteri, 07 August 2017 - 03:56 PM.


StringWitch #19 Posted 09 July 2017 - 06:01 AM

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View PostTitaniumas, on 16 May 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

you could have switched it for a 112 while you could before today. I switched fv4202 and cdc for M4Rev and Sta-2. Not regretting it.

 

What are the details of this... event?

Edited by StringWitch, 09 July 2017 - 06:02 AM.


SupremeNoob #20 Posted 27 July 2017 - 08:58 PM

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I have around 5000 matches in the KV5. There was a time when it was playable but its seriously lacking these days. Everything you meet can pen you but this is not reciprocal. Today you can be confronted with half the enemy team and you will not pen frontally. Somehow you are supposed to take the KV5 and use it like a light tank and get behind them :sceptic:. Essentially the tank is a disgrace and no one should ever consider purchasing it.

 

I find I am in 9 out of 10 tier 9 matches. There is nothing favourable about that. Even if it only met tier 8 and below you are still massively out matched in gun and armor. BTW its utter nonsense the tank is a fortress. Its an XP farm for every tank out there.






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