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The great rework of Japanese heavy line - it is possible and how?

rework japanese heavy japan jap o-i type 5 buff nerf

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Poll: Japanese heavy rework (336 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battle in order to participate this poll.

Does Japanese heavy line need rework in your opinion (note - not necessarily a nerf or buff)

  1. Yes (249 votes [74.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 74.11%

  2. No (65 votes [19.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.35%

  3. Cant say/dont care/etc. (22 votes [6.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.55%

Would this proposal help atleast somehow fix the line?

  1. Yes (209 votes [62.02%])

    Percentage of vote: 62.02%

  2. No (65 votes [19.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.29%

  3. Cant say/dont care/etc. (63 votes [18.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.69%

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brumbarr #41 Posted 27 June 2017 - 10:33 PM

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View Postjaptank, on 27 June 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

Some derp tanks are needed to deal with stupid swedish or russian turrets.

 

It's either that or artillery?

Your call.

 

 Or we could jsut balance them you know?

FluffyRedFox #42 Posted 27 June 2017 - 10:36 PM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 27 June 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

 

 Or we could jsut balance them you know?

Yeah but WG



leggasiini #43 Posted 05 August 2017 - 07:10 PM

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Bump.

 

I am gonna expand this by adding and changing a few things, making it even more detailed. There are also certain things to point out on some additions on midtiers. Will make few changes to the proposal soon!

 

The problem is just that the OP is near at max limit. I tried copypasting the version from TAP, but it was too long. I did make a few changes to it, but it shouldnt be even much longer than this one. One option could be making new topic but I dont want to feel like too spammy, or I could just add new things here and so on.

 

Either way, first and foremost, I would make small changes to the line. The latest edition will look like this:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Ishi 108 (Ju-Ni, fourth heavy (note: "O" actually doesnt stand for heavy, but "super-heavy", while "Ju" stands for heavy) is no longer tier 6. For little info I know about it, I can say its faaaar to weak for tier 6. The Type 97 also doesnt fit the branch - it seems to have dual guns on front of the turret and back of the turret. Maybe as a premium, but who knows. Type 96 seems to be better replacement for it.

 

I said that O-I Experimental will be removed, but it is actually not necessary. I forgot entirely the way O-I's armor was built. The O-I's armor was 75mm thick, with another 75mm armor plates could be added to turret, hull front, miniturrets, and hull rear. Thats where you can put in a perfect tier 6 candidate. Split the O-I into two vehicles, one with 75mm armor at tier 6 and one with 150mm at tier 7. Thats "kinda" what WG already did, expect O-I Experimental as it is, is practically 95% WG fabrication with lots of unhistorical stuf on it. The tier 6 now has 75mm armor and is lighter and has way better mobility, like O-I Experimental, but carries the same gun selection as current tier 6 O-I. Basically, imagine gigantic KV-2 with better mobility and hilarous ramming capabilities. The tier 7 O-I will stay much like I already proposed.

 

I was also considering about of making a signature if you support this proposal, much like the "Save the Chieftain" and stuff like that. What ya think?

 


Edited by leggasiini, 05 August 2017 - 07:30 PM.


CaptainThunderWalker #44 Posted 05 August 2017 - 08:15 PM

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Agreed. I was playing with the same idea when I thought back of this thread - the above proposal is almost exactly what I had in mind.

 

I really don't look forwards to the O-I Exp changes right now - I love being a true sumo wrestler. And being a sumo tank includes having a speed that someone doesn't expect from something that bulky.

 


Edited by CaptainThunderWalker, 05 August 2017 - 08:16 PM.


CptBarney #45 Posted 05 August 2017 - 08:16 PM

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Too bad wargaming won't hire you. You would actually inject brains into the balancing department for once.

CaptainThunderWalker #46 Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:18 PM

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View PostCptBarney, on 05 August 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

Too bad wargaming won't hire you. You would actually inject brains into the balancing department for once.

 

Game balance doesn't make money very well.



Derethim #47 Posted 27 August 2017 - 11:56 PM

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Bumping to support this.

Gremlin182 #48 Posted 28 August 2017 - 12:26 AM

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Not convinced they are that OP and there are some changes coming in already.

The "Weak point" changes on the type 4 and 5 seem a little pointless though until they come in I cannot say for sure.

 

Played them all except the Type 5.

Don't have much trouble killing them O1E and O!  are easy enough O NI is pretty strong but again I either flank them or use premium, usually flank.

O HO has the terrible gun depression but if it didn't have that limitation it would be the derp monster.

 

Type 4 Heavy I like though not with the derp that's not great when you have another tier 10 coming at you,

With support tanks its good but 1 on 1 the rof and unpredictable damage are not that great so Ill stick with a regular gun.

I tended to do that with the line anyway the O1 and O NI for me worked better with standard AP guns though occasionally using the 160mm on the O1 was fun.

 

Unique line of tanks with special advantages and disadvantages are you saying that they are really so hard to kill

 

.



superfly2000 #49 Posted 28 August 2017 - 02:36 AM

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The only thing that needs a rework is noobs brains.

 

The jap heavies aren't op ANYWHERE! At least not looking from a winrate perspective...and that is how they must be viewed. They are VERY SITUATIONAL tanks... and in most situations they are COMPLETELY USELESS!!!


 

Just cause some noob tomato can't pen everything from the front doesn't mean anything has to change.


 

And about the gun that hurts WN8 padders in the butt? I say: HAHAHAHA! I am sorry you egocentric damage padders can't hull down and sidescrape your way to success in all situations. Cry me a river. Go to mommy and cry moar. :arta:


Edited by superfly2000, 28 August 2017 - 02:39 AM.


Derethim #50 Posted 28 August 2017 - 02:50 AM

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View Postsuperfly2000, on 28 August 2017 - 02:36 AM, said:

The only thing that needs a rework is noobs brains.

 

The jap heavies aren't op ANYWHERE! At least not looking from a winrate perspective...and that is how they must be viewed. They are VERY SITUATIONAL tanks... and in most situations they are COMPLETELY USELESS!!!


 

Just cause some noob tomato can't pen everything from the front doesn't mean anything has to change.


 

And about the gun that hurts WN8 padders in the butt? I say: HAHAHAHA! I am sorry you egocentric damage padders can't hull down and sidescrape your way to success in all situations. Cry me a river. Go to mommy and cry moar. :arta:

 

This is exactly why they need a rework.

They are extremely OP in certain situations, bad in most of the others and leggasiini's rework would fix some - if not most of these issues.

Name for this is problem is "broken". Doesen't mean the same thing as overpowered. These tanks are really frustrating to play at times too.

Read the full topic next time.


Edited by Derethim, 28 August 2017 - 03:01 AM.


Balc0ra #51 Posted 28 August 2017 - 03:18 AM

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View PostDerethim, on 28 August 2017 - 02:50 AM, said:

 

This is exactly why they need a rework.

They are extremely OP in certain situations, bad in most of the others - leggasiini's rework would fix some of these issues.

Name for this is problem is "broken". Doesen't mean the same thing as overpowered. These tanks are really frustrating to play at times too.

 

Well he is not wrong. Most of them are not even "Defender" broken. The tier 5 is not far from it tho, but the upcoming changes will tone that down rapidly. The tier 7 and 8 HT is almost as useless as the Tiger P IMO. But at least the tier 8 gets gold ammo now for the useless AP gun. The Type 4 HT is the worst tier 9 HT I've played. None of them can multitask, and are only effective if the enemy come 1 by 1... and not driving around you. Type 4 needs some nerfing sure. Not saying that. But the line is far from as OP as most want them to be. But a majority of the people that rage about has never played one to know how frustrating that line really is from tier 7 and up. I'll dare say that some of them are more of a pain to do consistently good in, then the French TD line ever could muster at me. Derp gun for the Type 4/5 was needed tbh. But indeed implemented wrong. They should reduce the gold HE damage and increase the pen IMO.

 

Jap HT's are what I call "Pz B2" broken. As in a 3 man platoon of them is a pain in the butt and will roll over your team. But one alone, usually an easy prey if you gank up on it. They need support to be effective. As some of the easiest games in my Type 4 grind, was when there was 2 more Types on my team. Not when it was just one. And even easier was when the enemy had a non derp Type 4 on their team. As that's the most useless HT there is with AP and that DPM. Can't even pen itself or out damage a tier 8 med. So it's one of those lines that needs balance work to find the point between the solo Jap HT that you will roll over with ease most times in a pack. And the platoon one that will roll over you. 



Lord_Edge #52 Posted 28 August 2017 - 03:26 AM

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View PostOdysseusKrieg, on 24 May 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

another whining thread about op Japanese heavies,and btw this game has nothing to do with historical accuracy :popcorn:

 

Pretty much sums up the colossal wall of text.



leggasiini #53 Posted 28 August 2017 - 07:29 AM

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View PostGremlin182, on 28 August 2017 - 01:26 AM, said:

Not convinced they are that OP and there are some changes coming in already.

The "Weak point" changes on the type 4 and 5 seem a little pointless though until they come in I cannot say for sure.

 

Played them all except the Type 5.

Don't have much trouble killing them O1E and O!  are easy enough O NI is pretty strong but again I either flank them or use premium, usually flank.

O HO has the terrible gun depression but if it didn't have that limitation it would be the derp monster.

 

Type 4 Heavy I like though not with the derp that's not great when you have another tier 10 coming at you,

With support tanks its good but 1 on 1 the rof and unpredictable damage are not that great so Ill stick with a regular gun.

I tended to do that with the line anyway the O1 and O NI for me worked better with standard AP guns though occasionally using the 160mm on the O1 was fun.

 

Unique line of tanks with special advantages and disadvantages are you saying that they are really so hard to kill

 

.

 

View Postsuperfly2000, on 28 August 2017 - 03:36 AM, said:

The only thing that needs a rework is noobs brains.

 

The jap heavies aren't op ANYWHERE! At least not looking from a winrate perspective...and that is how they must be viewed. They are VERY SITUATIONAL tanks... and in most situations they are COMPLETELY USELESS!!!


 

Just cause some noob tomato can't pen everything from the front doesn't mean anything has to change.


 

And about the gun that hurts WN8 padders in the butt? I say: HAHAHAHA! I am sorry you egocentric damage padders can't hull down and sidescrape your way to success in all situations. Cry me a river. Go to mommy and cry moar. :arta:

 

Both of you missed the point. And changes they are implementing doesnt fix the main problems, expect maybe on the O-I Exp (on the onder hand tho, it will have mostly ~130-140mm effective front armor expect on tits, combine that with 12cm derp gun with good rof and access to HEAT shells with 360 alpha and 140mm pen combined with -10 depression and still excellent view range makes it arguably still way too strong, especially when top tier, though the problem is really just the HEAT shells which they should remove from all tier 5-6 derps)

 

Thats exactly why I want to rework them, not exactly nerf them. They are situnational, RNG oriented, in some cases useless or OP, have armor that is immune to quite alot of normal ammo but then raped by premium ammo (annoyance for both jap heavy player and its opposition, a loss-loss situation), and often have an extra flaw to make them just more annoying (like depression on O-Ho or cheeks on Type 4). And then the derp gun and the armor makes them also unfun and frusating to play against. Its clearly loss-loss situation expect for WG, who makes money for those who buy premium and prem tanks to afford to spam P2W gold HE on Type 4/5 or those who spam premium at Jap heavies.

 

Changes like these, especially on their armor layout, is necessary in order to rework the game further. Yes, the gold ammo should preferably be just entirely removed from the game, or if that is not possible at very least nerf damage by ~15-20% (and probably still slightly nerf pen too) and drop the price a bit. The reworked armor is stronger than it is now if the player actually knows how to use the armor, but weaker if he/she doesnt. And again, I didnt directly nerf them. For example, the O-Ho with the 127mm gun mounted will have full gun depression even above miniturrets. Combine that with buffed hull cheeks, upper plate armor and potentially lower side armor to 105. All that for having worse LFP and pixel sized cupolas as weakspot. Not a godawful trade. And the derp actually stays on the O-Ho, but it will keep the limitations to have trade-off for having amazing capabilities the derp gun has. Type 4 and Type 5 in return gets armor layout that forces enemy to aim, and on top of that the hull cheeks are entirely gone.

 

This is bit outdated though and I will do an expanded version of it in the future.

 

------------

 

Just so you know, I will do ocassionaly some poll topics on this gameplay section related to Japanese heavies which I can and will use as resources to the rework proposal V2.0.

 

 



Ubervold #54 Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:12 AM

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What they should do is remove all jap heavys from the game completely. They are an abomination, whenever I see one it kills my will to play the game. I have now developed some sort of compulsory disorder that forces me to use gold ammo every

time I see a jap heavy, even if I dont really have to. They look stupid, they are stupid, they add nothing of value to the game. Remove them please, now is to late.



Geno1isme #55 Posted 28 August 2017 - 08:12 AM

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Well, I talked to the WG Publishing Director at Gamescom Party, and they don't consider the Derp guns to be a major problem, so don't expect them to get rid of those anytime soon.

G01ngToxicCommand0 #56 Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:34 AM

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Researched and bought the O-I yesterday. That thing is super OP even in tier 8 battles. Ace Tanker in second battle just by derping HE...

 



Derethim #57 Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:44 AM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 28 August 2017 - 03:18 AM, said:

 

Well he is not wrong. Most of them are not even "Defender" broken. The tier 5 is not far from it tho, but the upcoming changes will tone that down rapidly. The tier 7 and 8 HT is almost as useless as the Tiger P IMO. But at least the tier 8 gets gold ammo now for the useless AP gun. The Type 4 HT is the worst tier 9 HT I've played. None of them can multitask, and are only effective if the enemy come 1 by 1... and not driving around you. Type 4 needs some nerfing sure. Not saying that. But the line is far from as OP as most want them to be. But a majority of the people that rage about has never played one to know how frustrating that line really is from tier 7 and up. I'll dare say that some of them are more of a pain to do consistently good in, then the French TD line ever could muster at me. Derp gun for the Type 4/5 was needed tbh. But indeed implemented wrong. They should reduce the gold HE damage and increase the pen IMO.

 

Jap HT's are what I call "Pz B2" broken. As in a 3 man platoon of them is a pain in the butt and will roll over your team. But one alone, usually an easy prey if you gank up on it. They need support to be effective. As some of the easiest games in my Type 4 grind, was when there was 2 more Types on my team. Not when it was just one. And even easier was when the enemy had a non derp Type 4 on their team. As that's the most useless HT there is with AP and that DPM. Can't even pen itself or out damage a tier 8 med. So it's one of those lines that needs balance work to find the point between the solo Jap HT that you will roll over with ease most times in a pack. And the platoon one that will roll over you. 

 

You shouldn't have to gank up on one player just to kill him, though. You don't need to gank-up on an IS-3, or an M103, you know..

You need to gank up on Maus, for example.. a pretty overpowered tank if you ask me.

PZ B2 and Defender aren't broken. They are fun to play, because B2 only sees IV battles and the gun is decent for those. Defender has a really innacurate gun, but when it hits it deals a crapton of damage. B2 isn't OP, altough it's a really, really good tank. Defender is just... ugh. At least give it a smaller gun...

 

 



leggasiini #58 Posted 28 August 2017 - 10:48 AM

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View PostDerethim, on 28 August 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

´Defender is just... ugh. At least give it a smaller gun...

 

 

 

Id rather keep the 440 alpha with reduced armor than 390 alpha with same armor as now, just because its more unique with 440 alpha and with 390 alpha... its just yet another 390 alpha Russian tier 8 HT.

Derethim #59 Posted 28 August 2017 - 12:28 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 28 August 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

 

Id rather keep the 440 alpha with reduced armor than 390 alpha with same armor as now, just because its more unique with 440 alpha and with 390 alpha... its just yet another 390 alpha Russian tier 8 HT.

 

I was thinking of maybe 250 alpha and giving it pref mm 

Tyrexdunet #60 Posted 24 November 2017 - 01:30 PM

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Hi leggasiini , I've made this several months ago, (it's in french but ...) http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/571390-le-look-du-type-2605-en-respectant-les-plans/




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