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Premium Ammo Need a Rework


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peekakilla #1 Posted 05 June 2017 - 05:14 AM

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i have premium tanks and premium time active, this is not a rant bcs i want to play the game for free, im happy to support WG, i just don't like the way they are letting me support them, i would prefer other ways that are not mining the game balance, and that are not giving to me or other users who paid for the game an ingame advantage over free users, as there is no point for me to feel more "skilled" then them just bcs i spent money on the game
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for all the people that think having the possibility to buy something ingame using ingame credits means that it can't be pay to win, read the definition;

 

source;http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

 

pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
 
pay-to-win
Pay To Win AKA P2W. when you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long
 
as for example in a normal mmo, if you need to grind 1 month to get the best weapon, while someone can buy it with real money on the shop, that would be also considered p2w.
gold ammo are even worse as they get consumed, so you need a constant grind to keep the resupply, just amaze me how some people are so blinded regardless this fact.

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ill take the ARL 44 as an example which is the tank i played the most, check the stats;

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Shells               AP/APCR/HE
Shell Cost         255/4800/255 <------1:18 the ratio between normal ammo and gold
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now in the tiers 6 (which is the best tier where a f2p can farm credits), a f2p player will make roughly the credits for 1 maybe 2 gold ammo per game, while a p2p player will be able to buy 10-20 with a single game by playing a premium tier 8 tank with premium time running on.
 
now lets assume those 2 players playing the same amount of time meet ingame after the game they farmed, the f2p guy will be able to use only 1-2 gold ammo, while the p2p user will have 10-20 gold ammo, is that hard to see the advantage of paying vs playing for free?
 
if you make a comparison you HAVE to take as example 2 players spending the same amount of time, you can't say well the free user can play other 10 games and have the same amount of ammo, bcs then the comparison will be inbalanced, same amount of time=80% more gold ammo=p2w or p2get an advantage (which are is the same thing in every other game, just on this forum people seems to not be able to make a connection between the 2)
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premium ammo is the 1st WOT big problem imho

 

i understand that the game need a credit sink, to make people buy premium tanks and premium time, and i agree with having a credit sink in a game

 

but there are cases where premium ammo are 100% better (see type 5, or any autoloader) , and using normal ammo is just bcs either you can't afford the premium variant, or bcs you are tired of playing your premium tank 50% of the time

 

other similar games use another kind of credit sink, the repair cost.

you may say, well there is already a repair cost in WOT, and my answer would be, that is too low, it can be increased by a rly huge amount, and on top of that the winning team should have a reduced repair cost by a large amount

 

so at the end of the day you still have the credit sink in the game, but instead forcing people to pay for premium ammo to win, you force them to win and to their best, so they don't have to pay the extra repair cost

 

(im aware that i made a similar post about it, http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/631449-new-premium-tanksammo-concept/ , but the main focus were the premium tanks, so i wanted to make a topic about premium ammo only)

 

Tl;DR

 

gold ammo = opens more weak spots = gives you an advantage over normal ammo as you get less bounces or misses as you can pen bigger parts then let's say the cupola so you expose yourself for less time as you don't need to full aim if the target is bigger = there is no reason to use normal ammo besides cost = using only gold ammo is optimal = you can't use only gold ammo with a free account unless you close yourself in a room 24/7 farming lower tiers to afford few high tier games with full gold ammo = see the p2w or pay to get and advantage issue?

 

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a pretty good suggestion that could be a nice start to improve the game balance

View PostMorgaroth_, on 08 June 2017 - 03:11 PM, said:

First of all tanks like Type 5 heavy and Maus need proper weakspots.

After that is changed the gold ammo should be rebalanced to have more pen than normal rounds but like 15%-20% less damage. Also the credit cost of gold ammo should be changed close to regular rounds.

Currently the only downside of using gold is that you lose more credits.. And that is what WG wants.

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View Postpeekakilla, on 07 June 2017 - 02:44 PM, said:

View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

 

To meet your pay to win argument you have to show that someone spamming premium ammo all the time (not affordable) has a noticeable difference in performance over someone that carries and uses some premium when they need to (affordable), can you do that? 

 

Because I don't think you can. 

 

 

you asked for a video.....i made a video, enjoy

 


Edited by peekakilla, 08 June 2017 - 06:14 PM.


magkiln #2 Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:57 AM

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View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

premium ammo is the 1st WOT big problem imho

 

i understand that the game need a credit sink, to make people buy premium tanks and premium time, and i agree with having a credit sink in a game

 

but there are cases where premium ammo are 100% better (see type 5, or any autoloader) , and using normal ammo is just bcs either you can't afford the premium variant, or bcs you are tired of playing your premium tank 50% of the time

 

other similar games use another kind of credit sink, the repair cost.

you may say, well there is already a repair cost in WOT, and my answer would be, that is too low, it can be increased by a rly huge amount, and on top of that the winning team should have a reduced repair cost by a large amount

 

so at the end of the day you still have the credit sink in the game, but instead forcing people to pay for premium ammo to win, you force them to win and to their best, so they don't have to pay the extra repair cost

 

(im aware that i made a similar post about it, http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/631449-new-premium-tanksammo-concept/ , but the main focus were the premium tanks, so i wanted to make a topic about premium ammo only)

 

How would you distribute it over the tiers? Right now, it's pretty much impossible to run a loss at tier 5 or below even when you lose (unless you're spamming gold like crazy in tanks such as the PzIIJ, the Valentine II or the Pz B2), whereas a lost game at tier 9 is almost guaranteed to cost credits, unless you fire standard ammo only. If repair costs go up lot games are going to be a credit loss even at low tiers, which may be a problem for new players.

peekakilla #3 Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:17 AM

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View Postmagkiln, on 05 June 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

 

How would you distribute it over the tiers? Right now, it's pretty much impossible to run a loss at tier 5 or below even when you lose (unless you're spamming gold like crazy in tanks such as the PzIIJ, the Valentine II or the Pz B2), whereas a lost game at tier 9 is almost guaranteed to cost credits, unless you fire standard ammo only. If repair costs go up lot games are going to be a credit loss even at low tiers, which may be a problem for new players.

 

i would make it so that even on low tiers you can lose credits from a loss, a smaller amount ofc, if you do enought dmg tho you can still make a little profit, right now the game is just telling you, if you want to win spam gold and lose money, with this system it would be more, play at your best to not lose money, the exact amount of credits lost is not my job, WG can think about it., all i know is that in other f2p this system was great.

 

right now is literally like this; improve your "skill" by a large amount by pressing 2, little example i just got the the AMX 50 120, as an autloader, you can't rly switch ammo based on the situation, and if i meet a e 75 frontaly, with standrad ammo i can pen him in the lower plate and on the little cupola, if i have premium ammo i can pen him almost everywhere, this is smt the game shouldn't have as an e-sport.

 

 


Edited by peekakilla, 05 June 2017 - 07:22 AM.


wEight_Tanker #4 Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:24 AM

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Reworking it from existent to nonexistent would make everything better.

peekakilla #5 Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:35 AM

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View PostwEight_Tanker, on 05 June 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

Reworking it from existent to nonexistent would make everything better.

 

the point is that i understand WG, yes they need to make money and all, so a credit sink is needed, but a credit sink that gives you an advantage in a battle, even if you can say that is not a direct p2w issue, it can be seen as an indirect p2w, as forget to spam gold without premium tanks and premium accounts.

 

now when you have situations like, maus , type5, crysler, defender, w/e where you either spam gold to have a chance to do dmg, or just run in a corner and lose, well then the game have a BIG issue.

 

i have premium account and premium tanks, and it feel so stupid to me to grind credits so that i can pen smt that is not possible to pen without them, while if i lose many games bcs i play bad, i would not have any problem to be forced to play premium tanks to recover the credits lost(i speak about high tiers), and this will also encourage your team to play for the win, and not yolo rush like monkeys, or stay afk in the base.

 

lower tiers should have a smaller amount of credit lost ofc, but high enought to give you a reason to buy premium time and tanks, if you want to progress faster, if not progress slower if you want to play for free, like any other f2p game, where money give you a boost on your grind or cosmetics, not ingame advantages


Edited by peekakilla, 05 June 2017 - 07:55 AM.


magkiln #6 Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:44 AM

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View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

 

i would make it so that even on low tiers you can lose credits from a loss, a smaller amount ofc, if you do enought dmg tho you can still make a little profit, right now the game is just telling you, if you want to win spam gold and lose money, with this system it would be more, play at your best to not lose money, the exact amount of credits lost is not my job, WG can think about it., all i know is that in other f2p this system was great.

 

right now is literally like this; improve your "skill" by a large amount by pressing 2, little example i just got the the AMX 50 120, as an autloader, you can't rly switch ammo based on the situation, and if i meet a e 75 frontaly, with standrad ammo i can pen him in the lower plate and on the little cupola, if i have premium ammo i can pen him almost everywhere, this is smt the game shouldn't have as an e-sport.

 

 

 

They would have to rebalance a number of tanks though. Right now there are quite a few that have such low pen on their standard rounds that they need gold. Also, what about people that run a tank without having the top gun unlocked. Quite often the pen on those is terrible. Right now they can compensate by using gold, but under your system they'd be running huge losses while grinding the top gun.

peekakilla #7 Posted 05 June 2017 - 07:47 AM

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View Postmagkiln, on 05 June 2017 - 07:44 AM, said:

 

They would have to rebalance a number of tanks though. Right now there are quite a few that have such low pen on their standard rounds that they need gold. Also, what about people that run a tank without having the top gun unlocked. Quite often the pen on those is terrible. Right now they can compensate by using gold, but under your system they'd be running huge losses while grinding the top gun.

 

yes thats why i said "rework" instead "remove", like sir foch said; premium ammo should have same cost as normal ammo, more pen but less dmg, that would be a start, not perfect but still better then now.

 

the perfect thing would be to have just normal ammo, and tanks like maus, type 5 etc having actual weak spots, where people can aim and pen, but this require more work, i guess.

 

as a player who have spent money, i just can't understand why we have a situation, where if you press 1 the enemy tank is red everywhere, if you press 2 it becomes green like a paper tank, without any ingame downside, and actually some gold ammo have even more dmg then normal ammo see type 5, arl 44 and others

 

this is called p2w hello


Edited by peekakilla, 05 June 2017 - 07:53 AM.


AliceUnchained #8 Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:30 AM

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View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

where if you press 1 the enemy tank is red everywhere, if you press 2 it becomes green like a paper tank, without any ingame downside, and actually some gold ammo have even more dmg then normal ammo see type 5, arl 44 and others

 

Reading utter nonsense like this shows it's just another generalized nonsense rant about premium ammo. You can't, or won't, even make any distinction between premium ammo across Tiers and vehicles. Yes, the Type 5 and ARL 44 have increased damage on their premium rounds. Convenient to name the 2 that have, and add 'and others' without actually being able to name those others. So please indulge us: what others? And no, the SU-100Y does not count as it trades penetration for extra damage just like premium HESH on British vehicles.

 

And where's that Pay2Win aspect when these items can be acquired with ingame credits without the necessity of spending cash hmm? With your proposition the game will turn into Pay2Play for a large portion of the playerbase.



peekakilla #9 Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:33 AM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 05 June 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

And where's that Pay2Win aspect when these items can be acquired with ingame credits without the necessity of spending cash hmm? With your proposition the game will turn into Pay2Play for a large portion of the playerbase.

 

View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

 

the point is that i understand WG, yes they need to make money and all, so a credit sink is needed, but a credit sink that gives you an advantage in a battle, even if you can say that is not a direct p2w issue, it can be seen as an indirect p2w, as forget to spam gold without premium tanks and premium accounts.



peekakilla #10 Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:35 AM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 05 June 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

 

Reading utter nonsense like this shows it's just another generalized nonsense rant about premium ammo. You can't, or won't, even make any distinction between premium ammo across Tiers and vehicles.

 

View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

right now is literally like this; improve your "skill" by a large amount by pressing 2, little example i just got the the AMX 50 120, as an autloader, you can't rly switch ammo based on the situation, and if i meet a e 75 frontaly, with standrad ammo i can pen him in the lower plate and on the little cupola, if i have premium ammo i can pen him almost everywhere, this is smt the game shouldn't have as an e-sport.

 



One_Joke #11 Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:41 AM

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When you fighting with t 34-85 against oh-o- or defender or something like this then time to thinking. And other info you can play tier 6 sh you earn 300-400 k credit and you can shot some apcr in random and the credit sink is gone.

Saif #12 Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:44 AM

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-30% to -50% in some tanks premium ammo nerf is the only solution to this game ,and ofc adding weakspots on HTs

Jigabachi #13 Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:45 AM

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View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 05:14 AM, said:

premium ammo is the 1st WOT big problem imho

It's far from being the no.1 problem, but it definitely is and will always be one.

If you want to increase repair bills, you'll screw all the tomato players, which make up over half of the playerbase. Those would lose credits at tier five then...

 

Short answer: Won't work.



tajj7 #14 Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:50 AM

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View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 04:14 AM, said:

premium ammo is the 1st WOT big problem imho

 

Your opinion, that is not shared, especially by WG.

 

Premium ammo is actually keeping the game vaguely balanced at the moment, heavy tanks would be broken without it.  Most tanks when used correctly can bounce premium ammo.

 

It's frankly a myth that you can just press 2 and you'll auto-pen, in most cases against the most heavily armoured tanks you might open up some areas that are bit weaker but generally it just means you are more reliable on weak spots. 

 

Not much needs changing IMO, some tier 10 premium ammo needs the pen dropping a little, some prices need sorting out, some standard penetrations need buffing.

 

What we really need is less corridor maps and less OP heavy tanks and then you'd see far less premium ammo being shot, but with Maus and Type 5 etc. no changes should be made to premium ammo until the corridor map and OP heavy situation is fixed. 



peekakilla #15 Posted 05 June 2017 - 08:55 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 05 June 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

If you want to increase repair bills, you'll screw all the tomato players, which make up over half of the playerbase. Those would lose credits at tier five then...

 

Short answer: Won't work.

 

not true imho;

 

example;

 

1 - now;

-bad player don't know how to shot weak spots, or where to go, he use normal ammo can't pen, so he start spamming gold ammo, he lose money, or make little to no money with normal ammo.

now tomato is sad and he will start playing worse and worse as he is afraid bcs he need to spend money in order to have a chance to win, aka he spend more credits.

 

2 - with repair cost increased and premium ammo reworked;

-bad player still spam premium ammo, he can pen but he does less dmg then a good player that know the weak spots, if he lose the game, the repair cost will make the credit loss similar to before the rework as premium ammo cost the same as normal ammo, if he win he gains credits but not a huge amount bcs premium ammo does less dmg then now, ( now tomato player know that he need to win to lose less credits, so tomato player become a good player bcs he put effort in the game )


Edited by peekakilla, 05 June 2017 - 08:56 AM.


Shnuks #16 Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:00 AM

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View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

2 - with repair cost increased and premium ammo reworked;

-bad player still spam premium ammo, he can pen but he does less dmg then a good player that know the weak spots, if he lose the game, the repair cost will make the credit loss similar to before the rework as premium ammo cost the same as normal ammo, if he win he gains credits but not a huge amount bcs premium ammo does less dmg then now, ( now tomato player know that he need to win to lose less credits, so tomato player become a good player bcs he put effort in the game )

 

Example:

Bad or good player can't pen tank with standard ammo at all because WG decided that weakspots are....weak. 



peekakilla #17 Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:04 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

Premium ammo is actually keeping the game vaguely balanced at the moment, heavy tanks would be broken without it.  Most tanks when used correctly can bounce premium ammo.

View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

 

What we really need is less OP heavy tanks and then you'd see far less premium ammo being shot, but with Maus and Type 5 etc.

 

do you see the contradictions you made there?

 

how the game is balanced if there are op tanks?

 

if a free player want to pen those op tank and he know even with gold he can bounce them, how can you say that this game is not p2w, actually the more appropriate term would be pay to have a "chance" to win(pen).

 

View Posttajj7, on 05 June 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

It's frankly a myth that you can just press 2 and you'll auto-pen, in most cases against the most heavily armoured tanks you might open up some areas that are bit weaker but generally it just means you are more reliable on weak spots. 

 

is not a myth, ill use the AMX 50 120 as an example, if i shoot an E 100 frontal flat turret with normal ammo i can't pen it, with premium i can, angling is another topic, the fact is that the penetration on the same condition is black or white when you take the same situation as an example.

Edited by peekakilla, 05 June 2017 - 09:13 AM.


peekakilla #18 Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:07 AM

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View PostShnuks, on 05 June 2017 - 09:00 AM, said:

 

Example:

Bad or good player can't pen tank with standard ammo at all because WG decided that weakspots are....weak. 

 

well im trying to leave the irony outside the topic, as i want to help the game balance, and im not the kind of rage monkey that spam p2w without a valid argument and possibly a valid solution, as those get ingored for a valid reason.

AliceUnchained #19 Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:18 AM

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View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

right now is literally like this; improve your "skill" by a large amount by pressing 2, little example i just got the the AMX 50 120, as an autloader, you can't rly switch ammo based on the situation, and if i meet a e 75 frontaly, with standrad ammo i can pen him in the lower plate and on the little cupola, if i have premium ammo i can pen him almost everywhere, this is smt the game shouldn't have as an e-sport.

 

You presented the above in response to my post as if somehow this is any logical response. I fail to see how though. You won't be able to just auto-aim, auto-penetrate that E-75, certainly not when the E-75 player knows what he/she is doing. And now replace that AMX 50 120 with the Panther II using the kwK 43 L/71 (recently L/100 was added, I know). That's 237 mm of penetration on the premium APCR round. Not so much a penetrate everywhere value is it? And lower the damage somehow would be an improvement? Would restore, improve balance? Rather than upset it even more?

 

And while typing this also reading your post # 15, not even going to respond to that. I think some of my brain cells died reading it.

 

View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

well im trying to leave the irony outside the topic, as i want to help the game balance, and im not the kind of rage monkey that spam p2w without a valid argument and possibly a valid solution, as those get ingored for a valid reason.

 

And yet you have played the Pay2Win card without actually providing any valid supporting arguments...

 

View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

do you see the contradictions you made there?

 

how the game is balanced if there are op tanks?

 

I think you have some kind of reading deficiency. As tajj6 does not in any way state that the game is balanced with OP tanks. What he does state is that premium ammo helps to close the gap on imbalance somewhat. And let me add to that: premium ammo isn't the problem, the root cause. Premium ammo is the symptom, the reaction to other issues. Bad corridor map design being one of them, bad tank balance another.

 

View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

is not a myth, ill use the AMX 50 120 as an example, if i shoot an E 100 frontal flat turret with normal ammo i can't pen it, with premium i can, angling is another topic, the fact is that the penetration on the same condition is black or white when you take the same situation as an example.

 

It is a myth, and angling is not another topic at all. That's one of the biggest issues with all you gold ammo criers: you seem to think that somehow you can isolate it, that it's not connected, not intertwined at all. Penetration means overcoming the effective armor resistance of whatever it is you're shooting at. Angling is a way to increase that effective armor resistance (or decrease when done incorrectly). You can't separate the two, isolate them, as if they're not connected. Angling the turret on an E-100 means it will become resistant to high penetration ammo to a certain degree, including most premium ammo. So whenever a player fails to do so (angling that is), any penetration is well deserved. Is how it should be. You seem to claim that being able to penetrate an unangled E-100 turret front is poor design, poor balance. How is it any better when you can just drive forward in a straight line with an E-100, and never concern yourself with silly notions of angling, yet still be immune? How is that proper design, balance?

 


Edited by AliceUnchained, 05 June 2017 - 09:33 AM.


peekakilla #20 Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:30 AM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 05 June 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

View Postpeekakilla, on 05 June 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

right now is literally like this; improve your "skill" by a large amount by pressing 2, little example i just got the the AMX 50 120, as an autloader, you can't rly switch ammo based on the situation, and if i meet a e 75 frontaly, with standrad ammo i can pen him in the lower plate and on the little cupola, if i have premium ammo i can pen him almost everywhere, this is smt the game shouldn't have as an e-sport.

 

You presented the above in response to my post as if somehow this is any logical response. I fail to see how though. You won't be able to just auto-aim, auto-penetrate that E-75, certainly not when the E-75 player knows what he/she is doing. And now replace that AMX 50 120 with the Panther II using the kwK 43 L/71 (recently L/100 was added, I know). That's 237 mm of penetration on the premium APCR round. Not so much a penetrate everywhere value is it? And lower the damage somehow would be an improvement? Would restore, improve balance? Rather than upset it even more?

 

And while typing this also reading your post # 15, not even going to respond to that. I think some of my brain cells died reading it.

 

why the answer wasn't logical? how can you afford to use gold ammo constantly, without a premium account and a premium tank? you can't, unless you play lower tier 24/7.

 

sure there are tanks that can't pen others even with premium ammo, but there are cases where you can pen tanks OLNY with gold ammo.

 

and in general premium ammo are opening more weak spots, then normal ammo, making yourself expose for a less amount of time when shooting, and making situation where you can't see the lower plate lets say "hull downs" fightable as you can't pen the turret or the upper plate with normal ammo but you can with premium ammo, making the usage of premium ammo an improvement to your "skill", helping you to win situations you could not with normal ammo, aka making those situation p2w, for the reasons i already explained above.

 

is not valid for all the tanks, but there are situation where this happens.

 






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