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Is the Stubborn Emil the POS I fear it will be?


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thestaggy #1 Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:41 AM

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My kryptonite in this game is the Romulan-Borsig Waffentrager. If this invisible bastard is on the enemy team I am 100% guaranteed to blunder in to it and get nuked. This once again happened to me last night in my 59-16 when I ran in to one that was 200 m away from me. So, I resolved to get it myself to just see what this thing is all about.

 

I'm now 2 or 3 battles away from unlocking the St. Emil and the line until now has been rather good considering they are all armourless and turretless. The Flak Bus was a bit of a rocket ship that allowed me to relocate and while the Nashorn is no speedster, it can get around (I managed to ram kill a SP1C that tried to juke me and get around me) and the long 88 makes sweet sex downrange when you can get her singing.

 

Now I am looking a the St. Emil and asking myself ''Why?'' Primarily, what is the story behind the guns?

 

Let me start with that 105 cm gun. 169 pen, which is the same pen the Fat Max gets a tier lower. Okay fine, its a stock gun so we'll have to make it work or just go full gold noob against the tier 8s and 9s. Then I had a look at the Jagdpanther and saw that it too gets a 105 cm gun but that one has 200 mm of pen. What? Okay okay, it is that tank's top gun so I'll accept it, gold spam it is. Then I saw the grind to the top gun - which doesn't have premium ammo because I don't know - is an insane 58,500 XP. In comparison, the Jagdpanther can go from its short 88 (unlocked a tier earlier) to the top gun in 33,300 XP, on the way unlocking the long 88 that is infinitely better than the St. Emil's 105.

 

Overall the Jagdpanther seems to be a better platform as it has superior mobility and armour that can troll guns with up to 175 mm of pen, so why is the St. Emil such a knacker when it pretty much has nothing else going? One would expect some decent armament as compensation for having nothing else up its sleeves. In fairness the top gun probably works quite alright, you just might come up short when faced with serious armour, but the grind to get there is insane when the JPanther, a far better platform, has an easier road.

 

These are all paper observations and I could be speaking out of my tailpipe, but I highly doubt it translates any better when it is in battle and this looks like a deliberate ''f*** you'' tank. Definitely looks worse than the Nashorn in every way.

 

On a scale of Black Prince to AMX 38, how bad is this? Black Prince being responsible for my deteriorating mental state and AMX 38 being the worst tank EU.



Suurpolskija #2 Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:45 AM

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The stock gun is meh... but...
With top gun it's one of the best tanks I've played.

I spent some gold for the remaining exp for the gun and it was worth every cent.

 

Edit:

1. depression is brilliant and you MUST use it.

2. The pen with top gun is very nice for pretty much any t7-8, just auto aim. Against 5-6 it's hands down unfair. 

3. You'll hate arty after this grind. If you already did, you'll hate more. 


Edited by Suurpolskija, 07 June 2017 - 07:50 AM.


SuperOlsson #3 Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:48 AM

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Yeah the gun grind is worthy of a tier 9 vehicle exp-wise. Why such horrible stock grind? It's a free exp/gold sink.

JuliusCheddar #4 Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:55 AM

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Just freexp the gun and you'll love it. You probably don't realize potential of 490 alpha and 15° of gun depression yet, but you will. Fantastic grind to RHM, and definitely more fun than RHM with 128. I played RHM with 150 so I may be a little biased tho :p

PowJay #5 Posted 07 June 2017 - 08:01 AM

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Certainly the Rhm B is a good vehicle. I wouldn't say that I am awesome in it by any stretch. but I am managing to maintain a positive WR of (currently) 54% from 396 battles. This is now with sharing the all-female crew with the E25 which has helped develop a good skill level. I would say it is worth the pain of the St Emil.

 

I found the St Emil to be an incredible vehicle- IF ONLY YOU CAN GET IT TO WHERE YOU WANT IT.


 

It's top gun is the only one worth considering. It has amazing firepower. The gun depression can make for some great shots over ridges. Although the armour is technically quite thin, I did bounce quite a few shots in many battles.


 

The problem with it is- it is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW! Painfully so. You struggle to get that amazing gun to where it can be useful. Uphill terrain is nothing short of a nightmare. I specifically recall one battle on Westfield where I struggled to the top of a hill, was spotted, backed over the edge into one of the gullies and had to go around again: by which time the battle was almost over- win or lose, I can't recall.


 

I still had a positive WR when I unlocked the Borsig, but that quickly fell to 50% and I sold it. I would definitely consider giving it another go if it received a mobility buff.



Aikl #6 Posted 07 June 2017 - 08:03 AM

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The RHM has practically no stock grind, which pretty much justifies the shitty Emil grind. The 105 is not terrible for a T7 tank anyway, even if it limits the potential of the tank quite a bit.

 

St. Emil does what it does very well, but there are few maps it's "at home" at. It's simply too unwieldy and slow to function well in an aggressive role - not unlike the RHM. If you like camping in a bush and letting your team win, then they're likely among the best tanks in the game. Jagdpanther, on the other hand, can do well as an assault gun as well as camp redline.

 

But hey, I didn't hate the Emil either, even if it's practically the opposite of what I consider fun in this game. ;)


Edited by Aikl, 07 June 2017 - 08:04 AM.


Pablo_Amenable #7 Posted 07 June 2017 - 08:38 AM

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It's fun ammoracking tanks with it :)

thestaggy #8 Posted 07 June 2017 - 08:40 AM

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View PostPowJay, on 07 June 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

The problem with it is- it is SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW! Painfully so. You struggle to get that amazing gun to where it can be useful. Uphill terrain is nothing short of a nightmare. 

 

This triggers me, being the owner of a Black Prince.

 

I'm familiar with the great gun depression having been shot at by them from insane positions.

 

View PostAikl, on 07 June 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

The RHM has practically no stock grind, which pretty much justifies the shitty Emil grind. The 105 is not terrible for a T7 tank anyway, even if it limits the potential of the tank quite a bit.

 

St. Emil does what it does very well, but there are few maps it's "at home" at. It's simply too unwieldy and slow to function well in an aggressive role - not unlike the RHM. If you like camping in a bush and letting your team win, then they're likely among the best tanks in the game. Jagdpanther, on the other hand, can do well as an assault gun as well as camp redline.

 

But hey, I didn't hate the Emil either, even if it's practically the opposite of what I consider fun in this game. ;)

 

I didn't actually consider that the Borsig is essentially unlocked as a fully-upgraded tank, so I suppose it is fair that it is gimped.

 

No, the bush camping is not a playstyle I find enjoyable. I Aced the Nashorn on Mines by pushing through the city and surprising the people on TD hill and in arty cover under the central hill. If anything I've been playing it way too aggressively. I'm really just playing the line to get the Borsig and see what it is all about. 

 

As to those that may mention free XP, doubt I can do that as I have the Centurion 7/1 unlocked and should get the T-54 soon as well, so I'm going to need most of it for their respective top guns.


Edited by thestaggy, 07 June 2017 - 08:48 AM.


Ankara_Aatu #9 Posted 07 June 2017 - 08:51 AM

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If you are not in hurry to get it, I would seriously consider waiting and saving up free xp to at least partially cover to top gun. The grind overall will be much less painful if you can do at least most of it with the top gun.

Mothless #10 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:19 AM

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This tank is all about the top gun and its depression, all else will have you foaming at the mouth.

 

 

 

 

You need to be aware of all the potential hills that will allow you to get 15 degrees of depression in use, but are not too high to climb, other wise it will take all day to get there.  You need to be able to be working at max depression, so that you can show the least amount of the hull above the gun, and pull back after every shot.  The tank also works very well peeking sideways around a corner on a slope- don't miss this opportunity as it will catch many by surprise.

The top gun can be very troll at range and get you foaming  at the mouth again.  some games you will hit and pen everything and cause absolute mayhem, other games you will fully aim and hit nothing.


 

Sand river defense is a dream, as is derpenberg, murovanka, malinovka.


 

Cammo is bad so don't camp bush, always stay behind hard cover, preferably ridges.  Always be aware of being flanked, minimap is your absolute best buddy:).  Bottom gun is painful, so free-XP it if at all possible.


 

if you like the idea of almost one shotting anything you can hit and scaring the living hell out of all else with 450 alpha per hit, then this is a great go to tank for a different play style.  it is totally different to the rest of the line and must be played with forethought and patience.  You are very team defendant and must always plan where you are going and what you will do from the start.


 

Not played it for awhile, but is still one of my most played tanks:)



PointZero #11 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:22 AM

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View Postthestaggy, on 07 June 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

This triggers me, being the owner of a Black Prince.

 

The mobility should be on the same level since the asthmatic gerbils the St.Emil has in place of an engine makes sure you will see the 25km/h top speed on downhills and that's only 5km/h faster than the Black Prince. Your power/weight ratio is 8.49 hp/t (Tortoise has 10.54 hp/t and even the speed demon T95 has 8.89 hp/t), I have a recollection of getting beaten to a position on Erlenberg by a Tortoise since it's an uphill climb to each flank from the spawn.

 

Your side profile is extremely large and easy to hit, you are also tall unless you find yourself a position where you can make the -15° gun dep work and hide most of your cardboard armor behind some solid cover of a hill. Stock gun is alright but nothing to boast about, top gun is great but it's a grind to get there and you can forget about blind firing with your ammo capacity of 15. Your gun traverse range is also extremely limited with 5/7° which often means you will miss opportunistic shots due to having to spend time to fully aim again after moving your hull. It also means you will do extremely poorly if you have to defend yourself at medium/close range.

 

Arty loves you since you are slow & big target with no real armor and open top. KV-2's and Japanese derp monsters will drive in front of 8 guns if they know that you are behind the next corner. Everything on the battlefield will turn its gun towards you if you allow yourself to get spotted. Forcing your to camp hard on most maps while hoping that the battle grinds down to a campfest so you have time to crawl your way to an effective but safe location.

 

Imaginary round of Steppes:

You have no business in East since everything will be close enough to spot you, you need to swing your entire hull around the corner to be able to return fire and you will be taken out in a heartbeat. Your realistic options are: A) camp bush on the rigde at base B) Support mediums on the West.

 

If everything goes smoothly in the West, the mediums fighting there have pushed all the way up to the corner of the enemy base once you get in position to support them. If things go badly you will find the enemy team uncomfortably close by the time you get there. Assuming things went smoothly you can start your slow crawl towards the enemy base that will be cleared long before you get there or you can crawl your way back to base in hopes that the enemy heavies push though and you get a couple of shots into them as they roll towards your base before the mediums either flank them or cap out.



thestaggy #12 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:27 AM

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View PostPointZero, on 07 June 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

 

Review

 

 

I already hate it. 



Mothless #13 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:31 AM

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View Postthestaggy, on 07 June 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

 

 

I already hate it.

 

Quite possibly a sensible approach:)  But it leads to the Borsig, which fully equipped with a good crew shows the Romulans how to do it properly!

Solstad1069 #14 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:32 AM

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View Postthestaggy, on 07 June 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

 

 

I already hate it. 

 

Its a crap tank, the combination of poor speed, no armor and the worst  - NO CAMO -  makes it extremly hard to get much done at all.

Pandabird #15 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:35 AM

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This td used to be insanely good on pearl river hills, so good in fact that they had to remove the map.


Jokes aside, top gun, sit behind hilltop, Feuer Frei, bang bang

Baldrickk #16 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:50 AM

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I actually prefer the StEmil to the Borsig...



Coldspell #17 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:58 AM

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It is a mixed bunch tank, top gun and depression as mentioned are awesome.

But it is an incredibly slow, incredibly big, incredibly large profile when view from above... paper TD... oh and its open topped.

Granted the arty nerf has probably made a huge difference as it may actually survive one hit from arty now... but when I was grinding it if you got spotted and were more then 2 seconds away from solid cover the tank received instant death from above.

 



Suurpolskija #18 Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:06 AM

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I had multiple ace tanker games in it because obviously a lot of pubbies have a hard time hitting things for more than 2 times a game or just give up with the stock gun.

What I did is basically find a grassy hill to peek from. Yes, this way you don't need a bush. Look at minimap and point your gun at red dots, peek and boom for 490dmg. Always assume you were spotted and duck to cover and expect the arty.

Don't waste shots because 15 shells is not much. Don't go to towns if you don't have to. Pay attention to the respective circles on your minimap and try to stay as far from enemies as you can. I had VR maxed with binocs and it was extremely helpful. Rammer +gld for minimal exposure.

All in all, hated the first 40 games with stock gun, enjoyed most games with the top gun.

This thing has the same effect as Sau40 used to have, so when ever you're spotted expect half the enemy team to try yolo you and use it to your teams advantage. Especially useful at himmelsdorf hill!

macenkrace #19 Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:25 AM

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the entire line of paper tds seems like crap to me. The box of fun from tier 5 is just a target for pretty much any bullet and with teams with the brain of a pea my win rate of 35% i was glad i sold it. The Nashorn, while better in terms of restriction it has a terrible grind for the top gun. Compared with the fact that the second one decreases pen on AP shell, combined with terrible matchmaking, new mm and arti reballance, it was a nightmare for me to even grind the top gun. No idea how I did it though, but my win rate still sucks with a 40% slowly decreasing, even in matches in which i actually do top damage.

 

If  I get to sturer emil I will probably grind for top gun but with current mm, highly unlikely. 58k xp + all the rest for all other modules = pain. I want the borsig waffentrager as much as you do but I will probably free xp the gun asap. I already have 30k xp saved up just for that.

 

Lesson for you: If wargaming decides you will be red, you will be red most of the time, even though WN8 says orange.



Mothless #20 Posted 07 June 2017 - 10:56 AM

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I disagree that this line is bad,  the Marder38T is basically OP and 1.5k games is very common in it. The Toaster is a challenge to play, but can be very hard hitting indeed and the speed is amazing.  The Nashorn is probably one of the best non-turreted TDs in the mid tiers and it is the only tank I have a Radley's in. The Emil is probably the toughest to play in the lien, and all lines have at least one thinking mans tank:).

 

The Borsig is fun and the 150mm gun really hurts (went one to one with an almost full hp Mauschen on windstorm 2 days ago and took it out, fighting around a corner).

So no, the line is not bad, just requires some thought and not just press the w key.






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