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Type 5 CHI RI Japanese AMX ELC bis game mechanics buff

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CamperKaempfer #1 Posted 07 June 2017 - 05:33 PM

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AMX elc bis

while i'd like this tank to return to its older glory, since that's probalby not gonna happen why not introduce a siege mode for it? when in siege mode it will be able to fire and turn the turret all the way through (even with the top gun). when not in siege mode it will be able to move. it would be coherent with the driver needing to get out of the way in real life for the turret to spin,

 

type 5 CHI RI

i think most will agree that this tank is just bad. i feel like it doesn't have to just be a stop gap for tier 7 in the japanese medium line. if you do some research you too will start feeling its unfulfilled potential and seeing the tank more like a failed opportunity. but it doens't have to be that way. the CHI RI could be made a lot better without departing too much from historical accuracy in the following ways:

 

1) i don't know how the single tray autoloader used to work, but it would be consistent with its ability to use a gun rammer that it didn't have to reload a full magazine when it's not completely empty. which means if you only need to reload one shell you'll only take a third of the time in order to do so than if you were reloading all three shells.

alternatively it could also allow for a contonuous reload, up to three shells: if you fire a shell the loader will automatically start reloading it without preventing you form being able to fire before he's done reloading (unless there are no shells life in the tray, but even they you'd only need to wait for one to be reloaded in order to shoot it. in short, you can fire what you have in the tray at any point of the reload). the loader will fill the one or two empty slots in the tray while the gunner keeps doing his job undisturbed. you'd be able to fire a patially loaded magazine. in order to re.balance this a little and not make it into something unstoppable that can never be caught reloading,

the reload time for a single shell could be more than a third of the current magazine reload. still, the maximum capacity of three sheels would already serve this purpose well enough. after all the dpm on paper would hardly change singe the time spent unloading the magazine is a tiny fraction of that spent reloading, and starting reloading before you finish unloading wouldn't give you much of an advantage in raw dpm (just detract 2 seconds to the loading time, or the denominator). but if you think even i slight increase in dpm or maintaining the same dpm with the much improved flexibility is undue, then a slight increase in single shell reload time would be enough to fix it.

i think this would add some spice and variety to the game, plus the chi ri really needs a buff. it would become a "shell-by-shell reload" cannon which can store up to three shells, quite like an autoloader, but able able to reload them one by one, thus not making the tank vulnerable while reloading, not after it's done loading but a single shell.

too bad, though, all of this wouldn't be much of an advantage, since the time you need to unlead a clip is so short (2 seconds not counting aiming the first shot, unless you stop to aim the two more as well), you never or hardly ever refrain from unloading all three shells. also the tanks is slow and the turret rather way back though the hull, so once you expose yourself there's no fast going back and you might as well take the little time it takes to try and put all the shells you have into the target. so a larger magazine but a longer reload for a single shell (as i explained it earlier NOT the same as intra-clip reload, or single shell reload), would be much more appropriate (in my opinon). indeed, even without this new concept i'm proposing. a bigger magazine with a longer magazine reload would make the tank on one hand more difficult, stressing and boring to play, but on the other hand more effective as it would be in line with its sluggish nature.

2) this tank was supposed to mount a gyroscopic stabilizer. i've gathered that it was uncommon, if not unique, of a tank of that era (late WWII). so the tank should have very little dispersion on hte move and moving the turret, as if it already had a vertical stabilizer, which it wouldn't be able to mount additionally, quite like strv 74, but possibly even better.

3) the huge turret of the CHI RI was designed to host a belt-style autoloader that would move a number of shells much higher than 3 all around it. its development was discontinued in favour of the easier to design single tray autoloader. they could introduce it in a third turret. it would be to a great extent fictional but not unlike other elements in the game. i don't know if it was simply thought of or partly designed, but since it was the whole point of the huge turret that got to actually get built, they must have been serious about it at least to the point of making some basic drafts, or they would have discontinued the work on the huge turret too before it could be completed, since i assume such a huge turret can be of great disadvantage not just on the game.

4) an 88mm anti-aircraft gun was also planned for the CHI RI. they could add it with or without the belt autoloader. since neither gun was eventually mounted in the only prototype built, i think there is no reason to consider either of them as more realistic or appropriate. the reason why the CHI RI needs to mount quite a bad gun can't be about balancing it, since the rest of it isn't exactly great either. indeed the good thing about thistank is supposed to be the gun since armour, acceleration and mobility all suck.

5) it was supposed to outrange shermans and engage them from as long a distance as 2000 meters, so the viewrange could also be buffed. this may not be a good reason to enhance its view-range, since many heavy tanks should then get the same treatment according to this logic, but it could still be done for the sake of balancing, especially since ( i assume) view range in hte game doens't really have a historical base and differences in it are simply due to balancing.

6) its power to weight ratio is similar to that of a tank i own, the t25 pilot number one, but differences in terrain resistance mean the t25 pilot is massively more mobile.

still, the CHI RI was supposed to have a very low ground pressure. i don't know if that translates in good ground resistance, or if ground resistance is one more factor introduced for het sake of gameplay, but either way, unless ground resistance is actually a strict ratio of weight and tracks surface, neither taking other factors such as suspension design and quality nor ever simply cheating for balance purposes, the CHI RI could emulate the t25 pilot in that aspect, so it would have much less trouble reaching its 10 km/h lower top speed. this way, even though accelleration (and if you want hull traverse) still wouldn't be great and you'd still couldn't outraverse heavy tanks, you would at least be better able to keep up with other mediums and support them. as things are now your low mobility seems to try to force you to play the role of a lonely heavy, but with effective armour to speak of, you can't really do it well in such role. you could also relocate faster instead of letting of ememies come at you face-to-face to get a taste of your soft 50mm armour (while you often can't do much anyhting against them with your 155mm of penetration)

ps) some japanese lower-tier tank destroyers would be cool, poking in and out the medium line as an alternative grind.

 

and now for something completely different

some tanks lack certain members of the crew. usally a radio operator, a gunner or a loader. let's forget about the radio operator for a moment. in not non.autoloading tanks, when there is no gunner or neiehr a gunner nor a loader, it's up to the commander to take up their roles, which should mean that when hte commander is busy either reloadig or aiming in sniper mode, he can't pay attention to the surroindings and hte viewrange would decrease. also, when he's loading he souldn't be albe to turn the turret or aim either, just as if both the turret ring and the cannon were temporarily broken. it could go same way with operating the radio, with the signal range decreasing, though this coupled with the view range will probably be very controversial among those of you who got to read this this far


Edited by CamperKaempfer, 08 June 2017 - 12:28 AM.


Dava_117 #2 Posted 07 June 2017 - 05:50 PM

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I like the idea about the ELC AMX. In the description is said that the tank couldn't rotate the turret while moving. So the idea of a "aim mode" and a "movement mode" are quite intresting. The time to pass from a mode to the other would just be the time to turn the turret back to the frontal position or drive the tank to full stop. :great:

 

For the CHi-Ri I don't know if it really need some balances. Most of the people says it's rubbish, but a few are able to change it into a beast. It may just be a very difficoult tank to play.

I don't have it yet, but if I should think abuot buff, I would say just a light buff to gun soft stat (especially accuracy or aim time) should be enought.

For the third proposa, I must admit I havn't understand it. Con you explain it better?


Edited by Dava_117, 07 June 2017 - 05:51 PM.


Erwin_Von_Braun #3 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:06 PM

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Try bullet points instead of txt wall.

I may have even finished reading it then:P



CamperKaempfer #4 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:27 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 07 June 2017 - 05:50 PM, said:

I like the idea about the ELC AMX. In the description is said that the tank couldn't rotate the turret while moving. So the idea of a "aim mode" and a "movement mode" are quite intresting. The time to pass from a mode to the other would just be the time to turn the turret back to the frontal position or drive the tank to full stop. :great:

 

For the CHi-Ri I don't know if it really need some balances. Most of the people says it's rubbish, but a few are able to change it into a beast. It may just be a very difficoult tank to play.

I don't have it yet, but if I should think abuot buff, I would say just a light buff to gun soft stat (especially accuracy or aim time) should be enought.

For the third proposa, I must admit I havn't understand it. Con you explain it better?

the siege mode in the AMX ELC could be jsut like that in the swedish tank destroyers. simply, instead of gaining the ability to move its suspensions, it would move its turret instead. when the siege mode wasnt' in the game engine i understand they went with a compromise and made the turret partly traversible. i think the result was awesome but now that the awesomeoness is gone from the elc, it could regain some nevelty with the siege mode. about the third proposal, i simply mean adding more shells to the magazine, since historically the big turret was design to accomodate a belt that would sprawl all around it, supposedly holding a vast number of shells. 



qpranger #5 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:29 PM

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I think the OP makes some valid points.

Dava_117 #6 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:40 PM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 07 June 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

the siege mode in the AMX ELC could be jsut like that in the swedish tank destroyers. simply, instead of gaining the ability to move its suspensions, it would move its turret instead. when the siege mode wasnt' in the game engine i understand they went with a compromise and made the turret partly traversible. i think the result was awesome but now that the awesomeoness is gone from the elc, it could regain some nevelty with the siege mode. about the third proposal, i simply mean adding more shells to the magazine, since historically the big turret was design to accomodate a belt that would sprawl all around it, supposedly holding a vast number of shells. 

 

Well, I wasn't talking about the chi-ri but the third proposal you made at the end of the post. I read it againg and, if I understand well, you suggest to disable some subsystem while the crew member is doing something else. Well, I don't like this proposal very much. It's logical, but it would be very heavy to implement and to run on an online game. You can consider as an explaination that the stat listed in the tank sheet are "mean stat", already taking into account multi-role crew member.

;)


Edited by Dava_117, 07 June 2017 - 06:46 PM.


CamperKaempfer #7 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:45 PM

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View PostErwin_Von_Braun, on 07 June 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:

Try bullet points instead of txt wall.

I may have even finished reading it then:P

 

i'm sorry i couldn't make it interesting enough

CamperKaempfer #8 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:46 PM

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View Postqpranger, on 07 June 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

I think the OP makes some valid points.

 

thank you a lot, sir. *bowing emoji*

Erwin_Von_Braun #9 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:49 PM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 07 June 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

 

thank you a lot, sir. *bowing emoji*

 

Just for a second I thought that said *blowing emoji*

:ohmy:



wsatnutter #10 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:51 PM

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View PostCamperKaempfer, on 07 June 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

the siege mode in the AMX ELC could be jsut like that in the swedish tank destroyers. simply, instead of gaining the ability to move its suspensions, it would move its turret instead. when the siege mode wasnt' in the game engine i understand they went with a compromise and made the turret partly traversible. i think the result was awesome but now that the awesomeoness is gone from the elc, it could regain some nevelty with the siege mode. about the third proposal, i simply mean adding more shells to the magazine, since historically the big turret was design to accomodate a belt that would sprawl all around it, supposedly holding a vast number of shells. 

 

10 gold ok 100 gold for a brief description of this wall of wft 

And it has to make me guffaw 



Dava_117 #11 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:56 PM

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View Postwsatnutter, on 07 June 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

 

10 gold ok 100 gold for a brief description of this wall of wft 

And it has to make me guffaw 

 

ELC: aim mode to move turret, and travel move to move

Chi-ri: some buff need. May be more ammo on the autoloader (the turret were designed to support a bigger, belt autoloader).

At the end why we don't block subsystem operated by multirole crew man while the crew member is doing something elese. Ex. Commander/loader: low view-range while reloading.



captainpigg #12 Posted 07 June 2017 - 06:57 PM

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I never felt the Chi-Ri was at all bad when I was playing it, sure its not as good tier for tier as the tank before and after, but definitely playable. The main problem is people trying to play it, and in fact all support mediums, like a Soviet medium.

As for the 88mm, as per what I have read previously on this forum, that particular piece of info on Wikipedia is incorrect, as there were no plans to ever mount it. Though the 88mm, based on the naval SK30 and not the Flak36, would be an interesting gun option though, perhaps even one of the 100mm guns on the tier5/6 heavy's.

 

As for miscellaneous suggestions of my own, how about a fourth equipment slot that can only take equipment that both give and takes away. For example a makeshift ammo-rack that increases capacity but decreases ammo-rack health and/or decreases rof. Btw this actually is completely historical, StugIII's commanders were known to simply have extra ammo piled up on the floor of the vehicle, judging it was more important to be able to support the infantry longer, than the higher potential for ammo fires/detonation.


Edited by captainpigg, 07 June 2017 - 07:05 PM.


CamperKaempfer #13 Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:01 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 07 June 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

 

Well, I wasn't talking about the chi-ri but the third proposal you made at the end of the post. I read it againg and, if I understand well, you suggest to disable some subsystem while the crew member is doing something else. Well, I don't like this proposal very much. It's logical, but it would be very heavy to implement and to run on an online game. You can consider as an explaination that the stat listed in the tank sheet are "mean stat", already taking into account multi-role crew member.

;)

 

yeah, that is indeed an explanation. i think you get what i mean but i'll give you an example: the MS_1 only has a commander and a driver as a a crew. now, forget about the radio operator. assuming the commander takes up the role of both the loader and the gunner, it means he can't reload and aim / move hte turret at the same time, so while your'e reloading, the turret stands still. unless, maybe, you stop driving. in that case if hte driver is allowed to take on the reloading, he could free it up to the commander allowing him to aim while he himself reloads, at the expense of stopping all the driving. also while the commander is busy doing anyhtign else than spotting, the view range could decrease. you may want to take special commander skill that has him take on hte role of dead crew member into account. all of thsi would probably be easy to implement, but possibly bad for the game, i dont' know if it's any good or useful. it certainly isn't needed, but i still felt like putting it out there

CamperKaempfer #14 Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:13 PM

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View Postwsatnutter, on 07 June 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

 

10 gold ok 100 gold for a brief description of this wall of wft 

And it has to make me guffaw 

 

well if that wall of text is too much for you i wonder how you can even read books, but for 100 gold i'd gladly try to explain... whoops this is already becoming a wall of text...     are you familar with the swedish TDs? the have what is called a siege mode.

 

when they engage the siege mode, which takes about 2 seconds i think, they gain the ability to fire and extend their suspensions to elevate and depress their cannons, at teh expense of losing mobility.

 

the elc amx bis could have a siege mode too at its disposal. it could take longer than 2 seconds to engage it and once done, the tank would finally be able to fire and move the turret all the way through 360 degrees, but it wouldnt' be able to move at all.

 

the reason why i want the time needed to engange and disengange the sieage mode to be long is to balance the speed of the tank, that i'd like to be buffed back to its former glory, and not just to get a fully rotating turret. after all the poor gun depression would probably force you to move a little anyway if the target moves aroung too much.

 

by the way, no offence. just kidding around, hehe. now where's my gold?


Edited by CamperKaempfer, 07 June 2017 - 09:35 PM.


CamperKaempfer #15 Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:35 PM

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View Postcaptainpigg, on 07 June 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

I never felt the Chi-Ri was at all bad when I was playing it, sure its not as good tier for tier as the tank before and after, but definitely playable. The main problem is people trying to play it, and in fact all support mediums, like a Soviet medium.

As for the 88mm, as per what I have read previously on this forum, that particular piece of info on Wikipedia is incorrect, as there were no plans to ever mount it. Though the 88mm, based on the naval SK30 and not the Flak36, would be an interesting gun option though, perhaps even one of the 100mm guns on the tier5/6 heavy's.

 

As for miscellaneous suggestions of my own, how about a fourth equipment slot that can only take equipment that both give and takes away. For example a makeshift ammo-rack that increases capacity but decreases ammo-rack health and/or decreases rof. Btw this actually is completely historical, StugIII's commanders were known to simply have extra ammo piled up on the floor of the vehicle, judging it was more important to be able to support the infantry longer, than the higher potential for ammo fires/detonation.

 

oh ok. the english wikipedia is indeed often unreliable about military topics. especially specific and unimportant ones, well even if you dont' think it's unplayable, you seem to agree that there's much room for improvement before it becomes OP. i feel like it's a failed opportunity to introduce something special in hte game, like the developers jsut needed a stopgap to fill a tier and were content with what they could get. the historical existance of the chi ri could be exploited better. the 105 experimental tank that instead could go on the ho ri or whatever that proposed japanese tank destroyer was named.

 

that extra equipment slot sounds interesting. you could also simply (maybe in addition to that), do that the more ammo you store the more you weigh and the more prone you are to ammo rack detonation, the latter increasing slightly in the beginning and then skyrocketing after a critical limit. even without the extra slot (at least for the example you've given) you could also implement that when the ammo starts flooding the fighting compartment, the crew will get less experience points, maybe only until the extra ammo is used up, just like vents do, but the opposite


Edited by CamperKaempfer, 07 June 2017 - 07:43 PM.


CamperKaempfer #16 Posted 07 June 2017 - 07:39 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 07 June 2017 - 06:56 PM, said:

 

ELC: aim mode to move turret, and travel move to move

Chi-ri: some buff need. May be more ammo on the autoloader (the turret were designed to support a bigger, belt autoloader).

At the end why we don't block subsystem operated by multirole crew man while the crew member is doing something elese. Ex. Commander/loader: low view-range while reloading.

 

damn! you've taken my gold away

CamperKaempfer #17 Posted 07 June 2017 - 09:46 PM

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i editied it because it contained broken sentences and i had left out some small but important words such as "not" behind. my main proposal for the chi ri is to make it different form other autoloaders in that it would be more like a single shot tank, which can reload several times in a row until the magazine is full, thus buiding up a reserve of ready to use shells that can start being unloaded at any point in during the reload, with the gunner lading a new one whenever the magazine isn't completely full. as you start the game teh cycle in the teh aiming circle would as usual see the red dots take over hte gray/black ones. when it's done one shell would be loaded. no sooner the first shell is ready to be fired, the aiming circle willl now see green dots take over the gray ones, as a sign that the gun is both reloading and ready to fire. the latter would be repeated until the magazine is full. firing the gun wouldn't stop this continuous reload. only the limited magazine capacity will

Edited by CamperKaempfer, 08 June 2017 - 12:29 AM.





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