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How to deal with invis light tanks as TD?


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Squirting_Elephant #1 Posted 18 June 2017 - 08:52 PM

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So I'm sitting behind a bush in my tankdestroyer (jagdtiger in this case) and I know there is a lighttank heading towards me because an ally spotted him but my allied died. It's was Fiery Salient.

 

So I'm waiting and waiting and then suddenly I get hit. Guess by who? Yes the lighttank is shooting me and I can't shoot him and there are no bushes for him to hide so I'm like seriously?

  1. He is driving through open terrain and I can't spot him
  2. I'm behind a bush
  3. I'm turretless thus my commander should be focused on that tiny area (game does not take this into account I know)
  4. I know he is coming (I know the game does not take this into account)
  5. I'm standing still
  6. I'm a Tank DESTROYER laying in waiting for a tiny puny tank to show up in open terrain

 

Yet he get's free shots at me and I must retreat like nuts to survive because he is slowly dinging me to death. I was like f*ck this I go forward instead until I spot him. I spotted him shortly before I died and yes he was in open terrain standing there and he was well inside my telescope range... TD camo = joke! TD spotting = even more of a joke!

 

And there have been way more crazier cases. Also it makes no sense for those tier9 light tanks who are sometimes bigger than my TD, apparently having more camo AND spotting than a TD and in some rare cases even have more HP (seriously?). Sometimes I wonder why I even bother with a TD, why not just park a heavy tank with a big gun behind a bush instead? At least I have more armor & hp.

 

I wonder what WW2 was like.. Trying to imagine a tank destroyer behind a bush seeing a tiny light tank approach and then the TD runs like hell because the lighttank goes invis in plain sight (ninjas!) and then starts shooting while invis

How to deal with this? Just run whenever a lighttank is coming?


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 18 June 2017 - 08:56 PM.


Strappster #2 Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:04 PM

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  1. Light tank.
  2. Depends how far behind the bush you are; far enough and you won't be able to see anything through it.
  3. So you'd be happy if he'd come up behind you instead?
  4. You'd suspect that all enemy tanks want to damage you so you could equally say that's taken into account from the moment you click the battle button.
  5. Yes but you're standing still in a TD that's the size of a small mountain with concealment to match.
  6. :facepalm:

 

We'd need to see the replay to give you an answer on this specific case but he could have come forward to the bush to spot you, then back off before firing and he'd get the camo bonus from the bush. You only know he was in the open when you finally spotted him; he could have been anywhere before that.

 

View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 18 June 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

I wonder what WW2 was like.. 

 

:facepalm:

 

Congrats, you've caused me to experience a double facepalm and those are quite rare these days.



Slind #3 Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:04 PM

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WoT is not a simulation.

WindSplitter1 #4 Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:05 PM

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Dat nickname. But whatever. I aready sent my point of view on the matter and some [self-edited] consumer, bashed me for it.

 

On topic:

 

  1. Jagdtiger is a very large vehicle. Even with cammo paint and skill, you will be spotted earlier by a smaller profile tank, even if you don't move. In contrast, Light Tanks keep their cammo on the move. Which I suspect you already know. If he had VR increasing skills and equipment on, that alone would explain things. It would make little difference if you were behind 1 bush or 300 of them, within the range vehicles can be seen, LTs have the advantage

 

You should've played a Dicker Max instead. The scout/LT player would be here complaining instead of you. Tier IX view range in a Tier VI tank destroyer. TDs have a lot of cammo. and with 5 crew members, increasing that VR without equipment should make your life much easier.

 

I find it quite amusing that players like you have a problem with this and complain about artillery (not your case, I know). But that's another story.



WindSplitter1 #5 Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:09 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 18 June 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

:facepalm:

 

Congrats, you've caused me to experience a double facepalm and those are quite rare these days.

 

Y'know, nowadays, considering the trend, I'd say the opposite.


Edited by WindSplitter1, 18 June 2017 - 09:09 PM.


Squirting_Elephant #6 Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:40 PM

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Sorry but 6 years ago TD's were gods. Shoot from behind bushes across the map, spot enemies, don't get spotted yourself, big guns, makes sense. Now I play the game again and I'm like... TD's with turrets like T30 (what is this?) and Tier8 Scorpion G with 311pen and alpha damage of jagdtiger and mobility of a medium (so op) shooting tier 6's with gold ammo. Also most heavies and such now get guns 1 or even 2 tiers higher. This used to be reserved for TD's only.

 

Yes the only way to stay alive is to stay out of 445m spotrange it seems. What is the point of the JT tank if I have low hp, garbage armor, slow as a turtle, arty can't miss me, crappy spotrange, get circled, etc. Sure DPM is nice until an autoloader stops in front of your JT and unloads all shells in your face... Now THAT is DPM. Or a Leopard 1 medium tank shooting me with gold ammo, penning me everywhere, having pretty much same HP&DPS as a JagdTiger... What is this? This makes no sense. Sure it's tier10 but come on...

 

I don't see the point of TD's anymore unless it has a turret or SUPER high alpha damage or unless it's an E25 or something with good camo.

 

But a LT can technically 1 vs 1 (most) TD's in an open map without strafing it. Just full head-on. Because the TD will NEVER spot the LT as the LT knows at what range he will be safe from being spotted himself. A TD seems to be useless without proper teammates properly spotting for it. And in maps like Fiery Salient you just gotta pray to RNG jesus that you get the better LT's in your team because there is literally nothing you can do it seems as a slow TD there to make any kind of difference.

 

And in city maps I have another problem sometimes. Same scenario only now a medium/heavy is around a corner playing peekaboo with me. I wait for him to go around the corner obviously. BUT I get shot by him before he becomes visible and then he goes back and I got like 0.3seconds to fire on his angled front armor (again pray you hit it and then pray you pen it). Meaning he went around the corner, shot me, drove back and only then he became visible, in plain sight, even if he has crap camo... What is this? Lag? Had it several times.


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 18 June 2017 - 09:47 PM.


Squirting_Elephant #7 Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:44 PM

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Also why a facepalm for #6? Why should I not wait like 10 seconds knowing that this LT will show up there without cover or anything? Well I guess maybe I know now.. Because there is no way for me to spot it. So when there are no more friendly LT's alive in my team, I'm f*cked? I can run (which takes forever in a JT) but he will eventually just spot me again out of my spotting range and just kill me anyway.

 

I had a damage ratio of like 3.0 6 years ago and still have a destruction ratio of 3.03 on the JT (mostly old stats) but now.. I'm happy if I get my 1.1 ratio damage. Meaning 2.2kish damage on average dealt before I die/win... That's quite a difference.

 

Same for my Ferdi:

https://pasteboard.co/19cgskab0.jpg


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 18 June 2017 - 09:52 PM.


Jigabachi #8 Posted 18 June 2017 - 09:58 PM

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Isn't that some kind of training clan you're in? Why don't you ask them to explain the very basics of the game again? And how "vehicle balance" works. And why you can't just sit there and faceroll every tank on the map anymore.

 



brisha #9 Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:01 PM

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You're in a jagtiger, you're the size of a mountain and you think a bush is going to hide you, it's not.

kripton69 #10 Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:10 PM

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Sit farther away from action. At all times stay on the very edge of your render range and wait until an enemy runs into your gun, never take initiative or read the minimap. That's good TD gameplay. Since the last patch Assault and Encounter have become a rarity and most Standard maps are very camper friendly because of the very predictable nature of the corridor maps and the unspottable retardbot platforms WG keeps adding to the bases for the bots to make sure they'll never have to make decisions or learn anything and they remain 45% win rates even after 20k battles. So just camp those areas and remember that either your team wins without you doing anything or your teammates get swept and you get to farm a few shots of damage when the enemies eventually want to finish off the game and have to dig you out of your broken position. Then you'll finish 1st or 2nd on your team in damage and tell yourself that you played great but the noob team let you down.

 

TD gameplay is so healthy and makes the game so fun in all these maps that have no flanking options and the camping platforms have shots at the key points of the map. Standard game mode is super fun as well.



Isharial #11 Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:27 PM

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a Jagdtiger is not a stealthy tank, nor is it small, you cant just sit in a bush and expect it to conceal you

the view range is not the best

a light tank can move while not losing camo, so a decent light tank can drive around without being spotted quite easily

View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 18 June 2017 - 09:40 PM, said:

Sorry but 6 years ago TD's were gods. Shoot from behind bushes across the map, spot enemies, don't get spotted yourself, big guns, makes sense. Now I play the game again and I'm like... TD's with turrets like T30 (what is this?) and Tier8 Scorpion G with 311pen and alpha damage of jagdtiger and mobility of a medium (so op) shooting tier 6's with gold ammo. Also most heavies and such now get guns 1 or even 2 tiers higher. This used to be reserved for TD's only.

 

Yes the only way to stay alive is to stay out of 445m spotrange it seems. What is the point of the JT tank if I have low hp, garbage armor, slow as a turtle, arty can't miss me, crappy spotrange, get circled, etc. Sure DPM is nice until an autoloader stops in front of your JT and unloads all shells in your face... Now THAT is DPM. Or a Leopard 1 medium tank shooting me with gold ammo, penning me everywhere, having pretty much same HP&DPS as a JagdTiger... What is this? This makes no sense. Sure it's tier10 but come on...

 

I don't see the point of TD's anymore unless it has a turret or SUPER high alpha damage or unless it's an E25 or something with good camo.

 

But a LT can technically 1 vs 1 (most) TD's in an open map without strafing it. Just full head-on. Because the TD will NEVER spot the LT as the LT knows at what range he will be safe from being spotted himself. A TD seems to be useless without proper teammates properly spotting for it. And in maps like Fiery Salient you just gotta pray to RNG jesus that you get the better LT's in your team because there is literally nothing you can do it seems as a slow TD there to make any kind of difference.

 

And in city maps I have another problem sometimes. Same scenario only now a medium/heavy is around a corner playing peekaboo with me. I wait for him to go around the corner obviously. BUT I get shot by him before he becomes visible and then he goes back and I got like 0.3seconds to fire on his angled front armor (again pray you hit it and then pray you pen it). Meaning he went around the corner, shot me, drove back and only then he became visible, in plain sight, even if he has crap camo... What is this? Lag? Had it several times.

 

its not "garbage armour" its actually good armour if you hide your LFP, your frontal armour is over 250~ effective, which when on a reverse slope can be higher and bounce repeated shots

I loved the jagdtiger for that on test server, and gold is much more prevalent there than on the main game


 

jagdtiger cannot camp redline like that, it isn't built for it

most LT's cannot 1v1 a TD like that, the TD CAN and WILL spot the light when properly used, your jagdtiger is not built to do so, and shouldn't even be in that position to begin with

putting yourself in a place your tank isn't suited, and then expecting to come out on top? :facepalm:


 

that last bit is most certainly lag, as there is not meant to be any form of delay on spotting anymore, check your ping in the top left, you'll most likely see it going red, or high numbers (such as over 100)



SovietBias #12 Posted 18 June 2017 - 10:27 PM

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Install Binocular Telescope and sit still, so you can outspot everyone when you are the among the last remaining in your team and those pesky light tanks are coming for you.

Strappster #13 Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:15 AM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 18 June 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

Sorry but 6 years ago TD's were gods.

 

 

Things change, especially over the course of six years. If it hadn't changed in that time, it's arguable that there wouldn't even be a game any longer.

 

View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 18 June 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

... T30 (what is this?) ...

 

A tier 9 heavy tank that masquerades as a TD. More people need to play it like the former instead of trying to hide the bloody great big thing at the back.

 

View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 18 June 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

What is the point of the JT tank if I have low hp, garbage armor, slow as a turtle, arty can't miss me, crappy spotrange, get circled, etc.

 

Are we talking about the same Jagdtiger? The one with a huge hp pool for its type and tier and 390m view range before any crew skills or equipment are taken into account?

 

But as you make a point about when TDs ruled the earth, a couple of years ago there was a global TD nerf; view ranges were cut and camo after firing was decreased for all regular TDs. WG's policy is not to nerf premium tanks since they had to give refunds for the Spershing, however, which is why the E25 is such a horribly broken cockroach and the Dicker Max has 400m view range on tier 6.

 

The world changed. Change with it or be left behind.

 

View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 18 June 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

Also why a facepalm for #6?

 

Because your argument hinges on the type of your tank and because you appeared to consider the fact that it had "Destroyer" in it to somehow mean you should be stronger than a light tank.

 

If you want to pursue that argument we can take it two ways; argue that all tanks in this game are tank destroyers because that's the nature of the game ergo they must be; or that light tanks can also be referred to as SCOUT tanks and that's exactly what he did to you. Either way your argument earns a facepalm.



GekkoGordon #14 Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:36 AM

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That's how it is OP....WG nerfed ALL TD's about 3 years ago i think, even the ones that were BAD even before the nerf. So the only way you can actually be helpful to your team is either play compact non-turreted TDs like SU-101/704 or HT hybrid T30...or go full BS division (T95/E3/E4)......or play turreted troll tanks like SkorpG.....

 

There's nothing your Jagero can do in todays meta...new LTs are OP, thats why everyone is playing them...RIP Jagdtiger & Jagdtiger 88



TungstenHitman #15 Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:54 AM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 18 June 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother with a TD, why not just park a heavy tank with a big gun behind a bush instead? At least I have more armor & hp.

 

 

....and also a turret. Yes in regards to the mountainous lump that is the JagdtTiger you actually would be better with pretty much anything else in the current meta. It's also just a game, certainly not a simulator but there are still rules so I would just suggest you play a tank to the strength of the current order of things. A noob in a tier9-10 light tank is currently empowered and has the tools to defeat even a decent player in a large sluggish TD like yours at the moment and that's just how it currently is so rather than get upset just play a less restrictive tank. This isn't to say all TD's are retired but certainly the heavy armored, large, sluggish, low camo TD class with the slow aim times and shell velocity types are, from what I can see, utterly useless and offer little more than a token shot or 2 which may or may not land while themselves becoming cannon fodder to LTs, Arty and any other tank with some mobility and pen



Infine #16 Posted 19 June 2017 - 05:39 AM

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Needs replay.

 

"I'm standing behind a bush" is a broad statement. Technically you can hide a Maus in bushes good enough that you'd have to drive into it to spot it.

 

"Light tank driving in the open" is also a broad statement. Generally light camo after shooting is not good enough to be left unspotted in the open, so if he's shooting you and remaining unspotted, then either bushes or binos from outside your viewrange or another spotter are involved.



spuriousmonkey #17 Posted 19 June 2017 - 06:40 AM

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There is still the problem of invisi TDs actually if you drive light tanks.

 

You only notice them when 3 of you hit you at the same time.



FluffyRedFox #18 Posted 19 June 2017 - 06:42 AM

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View Postspuriousmonkey, on 19 June 2017 - 05:40 AM, said:

There is still the problem of invisi TDs actually if you drive light tanks.

 

You only notice them when 3 of you hit you at the same time.

Yeah like those Swedish TDs that you pretty much have to run into to spot, whilst they bino up in a bush and outspot you....



tajj7 #19 Posted 19 June 2017 - 08:58 AM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 18 June 2017 - 08:40 PM, said:

Sorry but 6 years ago TD's were gods.

 

Yep and that was a terrible meta so they changed it.

 

TDs were stupidly easy to play and do well with, far far too easy and encouraged an extremely campy playstyle and a very passive meta.

 

There is this thing, it's called learning how to play.  You need to do that, the light tank out played you because he knew the game mechanics better than you and used them better than you.

 

View PostGekkoGordon, on 18 June 2017 - 11:36 PM, said:

new LTs are OP, thats why everyone is playing them...RIP Jagdtiger & Jagdtiger 88

 

 

No they are not, you are just not very good and get outplayed by better players, BIG difference.

 

Learn to play issues, if you are getting beaten by lights in a Jagdtiger then you are a playing poorly simple as that, the Jagdtiger can two shot most of the lights it faces. 

 



Squirting_Elephant #20 Posted 19 June 2017 - 09:11 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 18 June 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

Isn't that some kind of training clan you're in? Why don't you ask them to explain the very basics of the game again?

I'm sorry to say this about my clan but during the summer this clan is completely dead including officers. At least my division is.

 

View PostSovietBias, on 18 June 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Install Binocular Telescope and sit still, so you can outspot everyone when you are the among the last remaining in your team and those pesky light tanks are coming for you.

I always have bino's on all TD's (it's a MUST) but it does not help vs lights and some mediums.

 

@Isharial

its not "garbage armour" its actually good armour if you hide your LFP, your frontal armour is over 250~ effective, which when on a reverse slope can be higher and bounce repeated shots

  • The lower and upper plates = paper for sure.
  • The super structure has 250 armor yes (which get's penned by virtually all gold spam shots from T9-10 and by quite some T8 as well). I just pray they hit the gun mantlet. This whole gold ammo spam makes the JT armor feel like a Scorpion G. Alsop medium tanks just pen you here.
  • Yes on a reverse slope, if you have the gun depression for it you may get 265ish armor and if you rotate a bit 270ish armor. Which still get's penned by T8 like erm, Lowe, T34, Scorp G (duh), Tiger2, KV4, etc. . Sure IS3 and Panther 2, if on reversed slope with angled position may or may not bounce depending on the RNG have 50% pen chance. Yes even in the IDEAL CASE a medium tier8 like the Panther 2 can pen you in the super structure across the map when with a 50% chance... Not even talking about T9-T10 like Patton with 330pen... They all laugh at JT frontal armor. Gold ammo meta... RIP armor.
  • 6 years ago gold spam was absent and super rare, now it's common as water and I also use it a LOT myself against anything T8-T10. I even pen the crysler in it's turret on a regular basis thanks to gold ammo.

 

 

@Strapster

Yes good points. Also:

@Strapster

But as you make a point about when TDs ruled the earth, a couple of years ago there was a global TD nerf; view ranges were cut and camo after firing was decreased for all regular TDs.

 Ah I see... I vaguely remember reading something about them being nerfed really hard. I just find it harsh that BOTH viewrange AND camo are nerfed. I mean at least one of the two okay but both.. They already sit in the back most of the time and because they have no more viewrange they MUST sit in the far back now.

 

What I also meant with #6: Tankdestroyer should win from lighttank when they both face each other straight ahead. JT should have plenty of armor to survive the LT/med shots (but it doesn't they have 300+ pen nowadays) and on top of that you can't see them and even if you are in a city they just tank the first shot and then drive into your side. Your gun is sometimes the size of their entire tank but it just facetanks your damage... But... but... even my tank touching his tanks should make him explode... Nope... That feels so... wrong...

 

So it's not just the nerf to TD's camo, viewrange. It's the total change:

  • Camo nerf
  • View range nerf
  • Other tanks have bigger guns for their tiers now (buff)
  • Gold ammo is now widely used
  • Tier 9-10 LT's
  • Mediums that very closely match your DPS&Pen, might as well park a medium in the bush instead of a TD.
  • New TD's with turrets Like Scorp G that feel so opie opie opie.

 

Seriously why play JT when I can play scorp or park a heavy or medium in the bush instead? Scorp has less HP yes but surviver better due to better camo, smaller tank, turret, insane mobilty, can pen just about anything and almost same alpha damage AND it can face tier6 (you feel like satan vs tier 6's) you just gotta stay away from DERP guns. Also does wonders in close combat city maps. But JT... Nope... Sorry. Maybe I'm a total idiot here but nope sorry. I can't play it well anymore.

 

And yes I agree when you sit in the far back you get the following problem:

View Postkripton69, on 18 June 2017 - 09:10 PM, said (Edited):

So just camp those areas and remember that either your team wins without you doing anything or your [edited] your teammates dies and you get bumrushed and you hope you get off 2 shots before you die.

^ So true. Does not apply to very open maps like Fiery Salient but yeah generally this. And if you roll a 95% city map you also feel crappy for not having a turret. You can still do fine sure but it's way harder and you are very limited as where to go. You can't go around a corner, shoot and go back. Takes too long and you tank too many hits.

Therefor I play my Scorpion G like a medium tank. Fire and hide, relocate, repeat. Always close to the frontline but never in the frontline. Rack up insane amounts of damage & XP & credits. But JT can't do this...

 

Mmm yes like I said  there are some TD's, not naming any names like E25 :great: , who still invis-shoot you forever and ever. But overall the higher tier TD's don't do this. They are basically heavies without a turret, in a bush.

 

 

Stupid question:

If the LT is 400m away from me, and he is standing in the open shooting me. BUT I'm behind a bush 15m from me and another bush 50m from me, will the LT get cover from those bushes as well even though those bushes are like 350m away from him? So basically do the bushes I'm using myself add to the cover of the LT as well? Or is there a max-distance for a bush to count? Because otherwise I'd be better off NOT standing behind a bush.


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 19 June 2017 - 09:13 AM.





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