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About the T-44 and T-54 Mod. 1... (Suggesting changes)

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WaifuRacer #1 Posted 20 June 2017 - 04:17 PM

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Okay. So the T-44 transfered to HD and things that were good got changed, and things that are terrible got untouched... Since the update the turret is litterally dont block ANY shots. Even tier 6 tanks go right trough it, which didn't happen before. Ofc it got penetrated, but not in the turret front, and not by cromwells and skodas... The side of the turret gets pen'd by tier 8 tanks, not because overmatching but because it got weakened. When I aim at the enemy, they just simply shoot the side of the turret and it pens... On paper it got 20mm more turret front armor, but in reality it got worse than beforehand. Oh and what hasnt changed? The UTTERLY TERRIBLE ammorack. Like srsly, every shot is ammorack, and even if you have wet ammorack and safe stowage, the change is not noticable. Also there is an unwritten rule that if an ISU hits you you get insta ammo blow, no matter how dmged the modules or the tank is, or in what pose you get hit. its just instant blow. The t54 mod1... Since the game got filled with a lot of prem and non prem tanks since its release, its not competitve anymore. The only thing that it was good at is armor... Now it doesnt matter, they pen you everywhere. What can you do? Brawling? No you got no penetration nor armor. Flanking? Its too slow, not happening. Sniping? Dont even think about it, the bad gun handling, accuracy, and pen combined (And also the laughable ammo capacity) prevents you from camping, because its impossible. At least the t44 has gun handling and mobility to flank, but the t54 dont. Pls wg consider changing these two, because they are getting trashed. So in points, what I suggest: 

T-44:

  • Strengthened ammorack.
  • A little bit of turret armor, not too much.
  • Better penetration

T-54 Mod 1:

  • Better gun handling and accuracy
  • Better penetration
  • Better ammo capacity
  • Maybe a slightly higher top speed

 

Thank you for reading, and tell me your opinion in the comments, and correct me if Im wrong.



IncandescentGerbil #2 Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:06 PM

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The mod 1 is my only premium. Won't buy another, on principle... and it has become really Edited. I mean, seriously dull and boring to play. But I think I read somewhere it will be getting a buff. It's Russian, after all, and we can't have all our friends on the Russian server getting upset. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the buff is more pen on gold rounds. Which will cost more. 


Edited by Asklepi0s, 21 June 2017 - 10:45 AM.
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks


HugsAndKisses #3 Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:15 PM

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T-44: More armor.

T-54 mod 1: More everything.

As an owner of a mod 1, I can support this.



DorsVenabiIi #4 Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:19 PM

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I don't own mod 1 or t44, but I agree they need buffs. But give them sensible buffs, like better pen, better gunhandling, better mobility. Don't just slap on 300mm of armor on their fronts and called it done :/

HugsAndKisses #5 Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:22 PM

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I think the mod 1 could be buffed sufficiently with just better gun handling and maybe a little more ammo.

But I'd accept more :)



kripton69 #6 Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:49 PM

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Both of them would remain useless with those changes. They need much more to not be total [edited] such as the following: I'll be using a format like this: Suggested value(Current value)

 

T-54 Mod 1:

Penetration: 201(183)

DPM: 2150(1955)

Shell velocity: 1000(895)

Stabilization Move/Traverse/Turret Traverse: 0.15/0.15/0.11 (0.21/0.21/0.15)

Aim time(2.30) and base accuracy(0.35) can remain as they are.

 

Other stuff:

View range 390(360)

Terrain resistances H/M/S: 0.85/1.00/1.82 (1.05/1.15/1.82)

Ammo capacity: 45(34)

 

So what would we have here? We'd have a tank that has a playable AP round(don't get me wrong, 200 is pretty sh*t nowadays but it's still much better than 183) that would get its mobility buffed just enough to create a noticeable difference between it and mobile heavies like Defender. It's a medium tank and it should be more than a tiny bit faster than heavies. The armor would not be touched because it's fine. The gun that's absolutely terrible would hit some snap shots(the gun handling would be slightly worse than that of the tier 9 T-54 which is hardly outstanding), the shells wouldn't fly 10m above your target when you lead shots and the tank could spot for itself with 390m view range. 380m is the threshold of trash view range and 390m is enough against tier 9-10 tanks if you play well. The DPM would be buffed noticeably because it's a low alpha gun. I suggest a substantial DPM buff to all other tier 8 mediums as well.

 

Another frustration with the Mod 1 is the ammo capacity which is 34. Just make it 45. It still won't be great but at least you can take some marginal shots.

 

Now before someone says there's no point in buying a FV4245(or whatever the terrible British tier 8 med is called) or so after this. Is there any reason to buy such tanks right now? No, they are useless. At some point these tank need to be buffed so we might as well start here. If they are to retain the useless 240-250 alpha they do need competitive DPM and they need to hit snap shots. Make no mistake, this tank would still be weak compare to the premium heavies but hey, it'd be competitive enough for a good medium player to have fun on.

 

T-44-100:

Penetration: 201(183)

DPM: 2025(1931)

Shell velocity: 1000(895)

Stabilization Move/Traverse/Turret Traverse: 0.13/0.13/0.09 (0.19/0.19/0.12)

Aim time 2.30 (2.11) Note that this is a nerf.

 

Other stuff: 

View range 400(380)

 

And here we have another fixed tank. The mobility is fine as it is and doesn't need changing. The camo is also fine so if we slap 400m view range to it, it would make a good scouty medium which would also give it a unique touch among tier 8 mediums. Like with Mod 1, the T-44-100 would get 201 AP penetration and 1000m/s shell velocity which means it can pen at least something without shooting gold and with some good shot leading your shells would generally fly straight and hit where you want them to.

 

Because the tank doesn't have any reliable armor(it bounces an odd shell but let's be honest, it's poorly armored) and only has -7 gun depression and a terrible gun the platform is total trash in terms of combat potential. Instead of overbuffing the gun depression to -10 which seems to be how WG fixes these tanks this tank can keep its baddish -7 and its meh armor while the gun would get the love. A moderate DPM buff and a huge gun handling buff. The aiming time would be nerfed to 2.30 but the huge stabilization buff would allow it to hit stuff without stopping to aim. Isn't this what you want to do with poorly armored tanks with low alpha? I mean, to hit your snap shots against a distracted or enemy or just someone who you think might be a bit slow on the trigger? This is especially true if we are to keep the -7 gun depression which is very bad for a medium nowadays. If you are at a disadvantage in gun depression and have to play greedier angles, wouldn't it be nice if you could at least hit snap shots? I thought so too.

 

Think of this as a Patton KR with better DPM, slightly better penetration, somewhat better shell velocity and as trade-off much worse gun depression, much worse turret armor and slightly worse stabilization. It's better than KR but as I said above these mediums need love and we have to start somewhere. And again, even with these changes T-44-100 would be tank that's much worse than heavies but one that has just enough going for it to be playable in any environment. 

 

There we have 2 suddenly playable tier 8 mediums that are still quite low in the pecking order of the premium tanks. But if you just like medium gameplay you at least have the tools to work with. Better yet these solutions offer these tanks unique playing style instead of making them yet another two Pilots or STA-2s. Over time other tier 8 mediums need love too and there is plenty of room for buffing them without any power creep. That's how far behind they are right now.


Edited by kripton69, 20 June 2017 - 07:54 PM.


Search_Warrant #7 Posted 20 June 2017 - 07:51 PM

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Ill take a Type 59 as an apology for selling such a pile of garbage that is Mod1. i want it boxed in velvet, and the keycode on a golden dogtag. with a letter and verbal apology from serb himself.

 

That will do.



thestaggy #8 Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:54 AM

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More pen, that is it.

WaifuRacer #9 Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:38 AM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 20 June 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Ill take a Type 59 as an apology for selling such a pile of garbage that is Mod1. i want it boxed in velvet, and the keycode on a golden dogtag. with a letter and verbal apology from serb himself.

 

That will do.

 

XD 

JuliusCheddar #10 Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:45 AM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 20 June 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Ill take a Type 59 as an apology for selling such a pile of garbage that is Mod1. i want it boxed in velvet, and the keycode on a golden dogtag. with a letter and verbal apology from serb himself.

 

That will do.

You wanna fries with that? 



anonym_MSqPBzxRtsaO #11 Posted 21 June 2017 - 10:48 AM

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As an owner of the T-44-100 I would agree with kripton69's suggestion, though those dispersion buffs seem a bit much (maybe .16/.15 would be more reasonable?). Also, IMHO aimtime should stay as it is.

Hedgehog1963 #12 Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:07 AM

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I find the T54 1st prototype to be blind. Really bad view range.

LaManche #13 Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:25 AM

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I don't have a T-44 so I can only talk about T-54 Mod. 1. It needs a serious rework from scratch as they cannot really buff the speed/mobility and keep the armour the same. My biggest grief with this tank is that the gun is a Russian potato dispenser.

 

If they want to fix the tank without changing its stats then it must receive a premium MM, but that's unlikely to happen.



kripton69 #14 Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:29 AM

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View PostPanzerVor87, on 21 June 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

As an owner of the T-44-100 I would agree with kripton69's suggestion, though those dispersion buffs seem a bit much (maybe .16/.15 would be more reasonable?). Also, IMHO aimtime should stay as it is.

 

Because tier 8 mediums have that 240-250 alpha(heavies generally have like 320-390 and Defender has 440), lower penetration, almost no armor and in this case only -7 gun depression I think it's only fair that the tank can fire without sticking around. Right now the issue with the T-44-100 is that it's an underdog in any fight. Its gun depression is kind of bad(generally the only mediums with less gun depression have strong turrets) and it doesn't really have a gun that's particularly good in any department


You could argue that T-44-100 would become one of the best mediums of the tier with these changes but I think that's fine and should serve as the first step to making tier 8 mediums useful and even fun to play. You'd still be hard pressed to find a reason to play it over a Patriot but if you like the high tier Russian medium gameplay that's what would at least be offered to you, except you wouldn't have any real turret armor. 

 

I think the fact that this kind of big buffs wouldn't even make the tank overpowered just highlights how far behind tier 8 mediums are in quality right now.

 

View PostLaManche, on 21 June 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

I don't have a T-44 so I can only talk about T-54 Mod. 1. It needs a serious rework from scratch as they cannot really buff the speed/mobility and keep the armour the same. My biggest grief with this tank is that the gun is a Russian potato dispenser.

 

If they want to fix the tank without changing its stats then it must receive a premium MM, but that's unlikely to happen.

 

Preferential matchmaking is quite negligible nowadays. It used to be a huge deal until 9.18 but now it's just meh. You basically see tier 8-9 tanks with an occasional tier 7 and once every 20-30 games you can expect to see tier 6s. Playing an underwhelming tier 8 tank against almost only tier 8-9 tanks is just not worth it, it's better to play a competitive normal matchmaking tank that sometimes sees 3 tier 10 tanks as the worst case scenario but otherwise has effectively the same matchmaking.


Edited by kripton69, 21 June 2017 - 11:32 AM.


Enforcer1975 #15 Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:31 AM

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View PostHugsAndKisses, on 20 June 2017 - 07:22 PM, said:

I think the mod 1 could be buffed sufficiently with just better gun handling and maybe a little more ammo.

But I'd accept more :)

Gun handling means nothing if you still can't pen.

Considering that tier 8 meds range from 175-232 pen with the Lorr 40 having the highest because reasons and the Obj.416 having 201mm with 320 alpha at least 201 pen sounds reasonable but still low. Just buffing pen isn't enough. 

I'd rather have them nerf all broken tanks because buffing will break the balance to lower tiered tanks which then need a buff....death circle of buffs. 



Bora_BOOM #16 Posted 21 June 2017 - 11:44 AM

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My 5 cents copy/paste form previous t-54 mod. 1 threads/topics:

 

According to Vbaddict t-54 Mod 1. is quite bad overall compared to other t8 tanks.

The first figure is among all t8 tanks, the second is among t8 premiums.

Numbers are represented "position/number of all tanks in category"

 

WR: 57/84, 36/42            (57th place out of 84 t8 tanks, 36th position out of 42 t8 premiums)

Survival: 51/84, 27/42

WN8: 69/84, 38/42

DMG dealt: 68/84, 39/42

DMG blocked: 29/84, 20/42

Kills per game: 60/84, 36/42

Penetration rate: 62/84, 31/42

 

So, in short, its on avg 56th place out of 84 T8 tanks, and on 32nd place out of 42 premium T8 tanks. If you convert that to % its under 33% generally, and under 24% amongst premiums.

 

Now, there has to be a tank taking that place, if not T-54 Mod 1. that would be another one. But the issue is the strength that it should have which you could utilise - and it has none. The only relatively good thing about it is DMG blocked, and even there its hardly passing the middle. And that gives him nothing - it will just get killed a bit later without being able to do anything meanwhile. It cant do dmg (68/84, 39/42) it cant kill tanks (60/84, 36/42), it hardly pens (62/84, 31/42) so there is almost no use of having that armour on a medium tank which is that slow and has a potato gun. Figures don’t lie.


Edited by Bora_BOOM, 21 June 2017 - 11:46 AM.


Jethro_Grey #17 Posted 21 June 2017 - 12:05 PM

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Don't have a T44 ( a T44-100 tho) so i can't comment on that, but i'd be in favour of a above mentioned buffs on my Mod.1 which i MoE'd recently.

Isharial #18 Posted 21 June 2017 - 12:17 PM

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View Postkripton69, on 20 June 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

Both of them would remain useless with those changes. They need much more to not be total [edited] such as the following: I'll be using a format like this: Suggested value(Current value)

 

T-54 Mod 1:

Penetration: 201(183)

DPM: 2150(1955)

Shell velocity: 1000(895)

Stabilization Move/Traverse/Turret Traverse: 0.15/0.15/0.11 (0.21/0.21/0.15)

Aim time(2.30) and base accuracy(0.35) can remain as they are.

 

Other stuff:

View range 390(360)

Terrain resistances H/M/S: 0.85/1.00/1.82 (1.05/1.15/1.82)

Ammo capacity: 45(34)

 

So what would we have here? We'd have a tank that has a playable AP round(don't get me wrong, 200 is pretty sh*t nowadays but it's still much better than 183) that would get its mobility buffed just enough to create a noticeable difference between it and mobile heavies like Defender. It's a medium tank and it should be more than a tiny bit faster than heavies. The armor would not be touched because it's fine. The gun that's absolutely terrible would hit some snap shots(the gun handling would be slightly worse than that of the tier 9 T-54 which is hardly outstanding), the shells wouldn't fly 10m above your target when you lead shots and the tank could spot for itself with 390m view range. 380m is the threshold of trash view range and 390m is enough against tier 9-10 tanks if you play well. The DPM would be buffed noticeably because it's a low alpha gun. I suggest a substantial DPM buff to all other tier 8 mediums as well.

 

Another frustration with the Mod 1 is the ammo capacity which is 34. Just make it 45. It still won't be great but at least you can take some marginal shots.

 

Now before someone says there's no point in buying a FV4245(or whatever the terrible British tier 8 med is called) or so after this. Is there any reason to buy such tanks right now? No, they are useless. At some point these tank need to be buffed so we might as well start here. If they are to retain the useless 240-250 alpha they do need competitive DPM and they need to hit snap shots. Make no mistake, this tank would still be weak compare to the premium heavies but hey, it'd be competitive enough for a good medium player to have fun on.

 

T-44-100:

Penetration: 201(183)

DPM: 2025(1931)

Shell velocity: 1000(895)

Stabilization Move/Traverse/Turret Traverse: 0.13/0.13/0.09 (0.19/0.19/0.12)

Aim time 2.30 (2.11) Note that this is a nerf.

 

Other stuff:

View range 400(380)

 

And here we have another fixed tank. The mobility is fine as it is and doesn't need changing. The camo is also fine so if we slap 400m view range to it, it would make a good scouty medium which would also give it a unique touch among tier 8 mediums. Like with Mod 1, the T-44-100 would get 201 AP penetration and 1000m/s shell velocity which means it can pen at least something without shooting gold and with some good shot leading your shells would generally fly straight and hit where you want them to.

 

Because the tank doesn't have any reliable armor(it bounces an odd shell but let's be honest, it's poorly armored) and only has -7 gun depression and a terrible gun the platform is total trash in terms of combat potential. Instead of overbuffing the gun depression to -10 which seems to be how WG fixes these tanks this tank can keep its baddish -7 and its meh armor while the gun would get the love. A moderate DPM buff and a huge gun handling buff. The aiming time would be nerfed to 2.30 but the huge stabilization buff would allow it to hit stuff without stopping to aim. Isn't this what you want to do with poorly armored tanks with low alpha? I mean, to hit your snap shots against a distracted or enemy or just someone who you think might be a bit slow on the trigger? This is especially true if we are to keep the -7 gun depression which is very bad for a medium nowadays. If you are at a disadvantage in gun depression and have to play greedier angles, wouldn't it be nice if you could at least hit snap shots? I thought so too.

 

Think of this as a Patton KR with better DPM, slightly better penetration, somewhat better shell velocity and as trade-off much worse gun depression, much worse turret armor and slightly worse stabilization. It's better than KR but as I said above these mediums need love and we have to start somewhere. And again, even with these changes T-44-100 would be tank that's much worse than heavies but one that has just enough going for it to be playable in any environment. 

 

There we have 2 suddenly playable tier 8 mediums that are still quite low in the pecking order of the premium tanks. But if you just like medium gameplay you at least have the tools to work with. Better yet these solutions offer these tanks unique playing style instead of making them yet another two Pilots or STA-2s. Over time other tier 8 mediums need love too and there is plenty of room for buffing them without any power creep. That's how far behind they are right now.

 

these are reasonable changes, but im just curious as to the blowback from buffing the pen, it does seem to make a couple of other T8's (standard and premium) a little bit more worthless than they currently are... which is never good

I don't think it needs a pen buff + a view range buff (its one of the other imo) considering the T54 mod1 can get decent camo as well, well over the 30% range whereas the majority of T8 mediums can barely get to 30%, but have the same or worse view range as your suggested value

the only problem is, will 18mm pen actually make a difference in game?

T-44-100, still suffers the same, pen still isn't that useable, and the view range buff is overkill with the camo it gets


 


 

I know these and nearly all T8 meds should be buffed up, but they shouldn't be overbuffed, and that's what why i don't like the view range + camo combo's these would get



JuliusCheddar #19 Posted 21 June 2017 - 12:22 PM

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Imho they should give it stronk turret (215 effective) to match rounded Chinese tonks and either horsepower or top speed. Gun can stay potato to differ it from other premium meds. Standard pen can stay but current premium pen is pathetic. 7 degrees of gun depression would be nice as well.

Search_Warrant #20 Posted 21 June 2017 - 01:09 PM

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Mod1 is nothing more than a slightly faster IS-6 with worse armor in both turret/hull and a worse gun with more pen, while taking away the preff. aka, utter garbage.





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