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Wrongly tiered cannons


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Neyaru #1 Posted 21 June 2017 - 03:20 AM

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Hello. I want to talk about some things relevant to balance of the game that annoys me.

 

8,8cm Kw.K. 36L/56

 

What was taken in account to consider this gun as tier VII?

 

Is the alpha damage? 10cm Cannon Type 14 has more.

Is the aim time? Some tier V tanks have less aim time using tier VI guns.

Is the dispersion? Nothing special.

Is the penetration? German and Japanese medium tanks use a tier VI gun with better penetration (150mm/155mm,).

 

I noticed that when a tank uses a gun of a higher tier (ex.: KV-85 + 122mm D-2-5T), it has worse stats than a tank of said tier using the same gun, because the gun is not fitted to it, and it receive even better stats when used on a tank with a tier higher than the gun (ex.: KV-5 + 107mm ZiS-6M, Chi-Ri + 7,5cm, Panther M/10 etc).

 

This cannon is clearly tier VI, and it is used on "sniper" tanks (VK 36.01 H, HT No. VI, Tiger 131), limiting the real potential of these heavy tanks. 

 

I know that this cannon historically was used on Tiger H, but if it was properly classified as tier VI (what it really is), said tanks would have better stats with it (aim time and dispersion mainly), Heavy Tank No. VI / Tiger 131 would have preferential match-making (all premium tanks with guns of the same tier have preferential match-making [IS-6, 112, Jagdtiger 8,8cm, T26E4 etc, except for Panther 8,8cm that is medium]).

 

The same situation applies to OQF 77mm Gun Mk. II. The same gun is carried from Churchill VII to Black Prince, but the stats change only a bit (+ same aim time on both tanks). Penetration and damage are slightly better (+5 damage, + 3mm penetration) than the other tier VI weapon Churchill VII has access to, because it was wrongly classified as a tier VII gun. 

 

Another thing that makes no sense for me is about Challenger, the tier 7 british TD. If you take a look in the line, you can see that Archer (tier V!!) and Achilles have access to a tier VII gun (OQF 17-pdr AT Gun Mk. VII, that receives great improvements going up the tiers), and is the best gun Challenger has access to. The tank that comes after in the line, Charioteer, not only has a gun of the same tier (easy grind) as stock option with average penetration (226; could be researchable for Challenger), but also tier IX and X guns. Challenger to Charioteer: +97mm penetration, +240 damage per shot. Obviously reload time and aim time on Challenger are smaller, but why this abysmal difference between two tanks with only one tier?

 

SU-152 and ISU-152 are no different. One gets a tier VIII gun (+1) with 175mm penetration, while the other a tier X gun (+2) with 286mm penetration. 

T29 and T32 use the same cannon, but on T32 (that is of the same tier of the gun) only benefits from 0,77s smaller reload time. On the other hand, T34 that is a premium tank has a tier IX gun. Is it so players interested in tanks of the line instead of keeping T32 and its poor 198mm penetration buy the T34?

 

The balancement could be better if all, not just some, tanks of the game could get access to a cannon of the tier above OR all tanks are stick to cannons of their respective tier. Tier 8 tanks in general suffer as bottom tier because all tier IX tanks get access to tier X guns, what does not happen to all tier 8 tanks.

 

Some examples:

 

T32 could use the tier IX gun that is grind for M103.

VK 45.02 A could use the tier IX gun that is grind for VK 45.02 B.

O-Ho could use the tier IX gun that is grind for Type 4 Heavy.

Chi-Ri and KV-5 use a gun of a lower tier.

 

That's all for now.


Edited by Neyaru, 21 June 2017 - 04:25 AM.


Keyhand #2 Posted 21 June 2017 - 03:37 AM

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T32 having trouble? not on my account...

Balc0ra #3 Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:09 AM

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View PostNeyaru, on 21 June 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

8,8cm Kw.K. 36L/56

 

What was taken in account to consider this gun as tier VII?

 

Because when the gun was added eons ago...  was when the L56 faced tier X targets. And the gun was only on tier 6 and 7 tanks. It was part of a different meta. Simple as that.

 

View PostNeyaru, on 21 June 2017 - 03:20 AM, said:

SU-152 and ISU-152 are no different. One gets a tier VIII gun (+1) with 175mm penetration, while the other a tier X gun (+2) with 286mm penetration.

 

Who cares? It's called the SU-152.. not the SU-122. Who uses the 122mm 175 pen gun on that anyway?



Tinbawx #4 Posted 21 June 2017 - 06:22 AM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 21 June 2017 - 04:09 AM, said:

Who cares? It's called the SU-152.. not the SU-122. Who uses the 122mm 175 pen gun on that anyway?

 

I used the 122mm, but that was back in 2015 or maybe even 2014, I don´t quite remember. Good alpha, godly dpm and sufficient pen. That was back then.

Now? Now I´m glad I played it in those days.


Edited by Tinbawx, 21 June 2017 - 06:23 AM.


Neyaru #5 Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:05 PM

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Oh, you are not understanding. 

 

View PostKeyhand, on 20 June 2017 - 11:37 PM, said:

T32 having trouble? not on my account...

 

T32 uses the same cannon of T29. The cannon (that is tier VIII) is fitted for T32, but as most any other heavy tank gets access to a tier IX gun, T32 is below average in terms of penetration, like Chrysler that uses the same gun.

 

 

View PostBalc0ra, on 21 June 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

Because when the gun was added eons ago...  was when the L56 faced tier X targets. And the gun was only on tier 6 and 7 tanks. It was part of a different meta. Simple as that.

 

Being a tier VII gun means it is fitted for tier VII tanks. Imagine a Tiger P or a Tiger I using this cannon with 145mm penetration. Got it? Compare with other tier VII guns that heavy tanks use.

 

 

Block Quote

 Who cares? It's called the SU-152.. not the SU-122. Who uses the 122mm 175 pen gun on that anyway

 

175mm penetration is the average for tier VIII HT guns (used in IS, KV-3, IS-6), but for TDs it is tier VII (compare the two SU-152's 122mm cannons; one is tier VII and the other VIII but both have same penetration and damage. The gun is wrongly tiered). That's why no one uses it and SU-152 should get access to the tier IX gun that is grind for ISU-152 (122mm BL-9S).


Edited by Neyaru, 21 June 2017 - 04:11 PM.


lord_chipmonk #6 Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:42 PM

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I'm really not sure what the issue is here. If you're complaining about module tiers, that is an irrelevant stat that is not used for its intended purpose. If you don't like the fact that the T32 gun is rather underwhelming, then I understand that, but I'm not sure why you've dressed that point up in all this tomfoolery. 

 

Edit: Typing is hard, yo.


Edited by lord_chipmonk, 21 June 2017 - 04:42 PM.


Neyaru #7 Posted 21 June 2017 - 04:50 PM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 21 June 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

I'm really not sure what the issue is here. If you're complaining about module tiers, that is an irrelevant stat that is not used for its intended purpose. If you don't like the fact that the T32 gun is rather underwhelming, then I understand that, but I'm not sure why you've dressed that point up in all this tomfoolery. 

 

Edit: Typing is hard, yo.

 

The thread is not about T32. I don't have this tank, just using as example. And don't think it is irrelevant. Cannons have a tier for a purpose.

 

Anyway, if back in time T32 was a premium tank in place of T34, it would have pref. MM. Chrysler does not have because it lacks weakspots and WG is not releasing new tanks with this benefit.


Edited by Neyaru, 21 June 2017 - 04:51 PM.


lord_chipmonk #8 Posted 21 June 2017 - 05:00 PM

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View PostNeyaru, on 21 June 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

And don't think it is irrelevant. Cannons have a tier for a purpose.

 

No, they don't. IIRC, one of the devs answered a question about this a while ago stating that they had a purpose way back when, but that purpose has been lost. They retain the information in case they decide to reimplement it. 



Balc0ra #9 Posted 21 June 2017 - 05:03 PM

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View PostNeyaru, on 21 June 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

Being a tier VII gun means it is fitted for tier VII tanks. Imagine a Tiger P or a Tiger I using this cannon with 145mm penetration. Got it? Compare with other tier VII guns that heavy tanks use.

 

No.. not fitted to use on. But more so as a pointer on what to use vs. Pz 1c uses a tier III gun, because lets be honest. It can't pen anything on tier 4 most of the time with it anyway head on. TD's usually have guns one or even two tiers above their own. Like the Archer that has a tier VII gun. Or the Charioteer that has a tier X gun. As they in a support role have to pen HT with more armor head on more so then not then a medium does with flank shots.  99% of the mediums have a top gun that's on the same tier as they are. Some exceptions are the 416 and Cent 7/1 that has a gun one tier up, as they are expected to flank, not brawl with it.

 

Short 88 is still a tier 7. Because it's used more on HT's then on mediums on tier 6/7. It was used on mostly mediums back in the old German tech tree, before two of them became HT's... and when +2 MM was not a thing. So as I said... it was a different meta and chain of thought back them. Now it's only on one tier 6 medium, and a T6 HT before going to tier 7 Tigers and the VK medium.. Because atm... it has the same pen as most tier 7 mediums gun have that are 90mm or lower in caliber. As most like the Comet and Leo with sub 90mm guns are in the 140 to 150 area on pen. Thus it stayed as a tier VII gun. So in that regard... it still makes sense.

 

As for the SU-152's 122mm? Well even with the lower pen, it's all about the DPM and alpha if you use that, vs the tier on the gun. As the ISU goes from 390 to 750 alpha. Should it just be +1 still then on that one?


Edited by Balc0ra, 21 June 2017 - 05:08 PM.


leggasiini #10 Posted 21 June 2017 - 05:05 PM

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Ehh, who cares about module tier, anyways? I never used to and never will.

Homer_J #11 Posted 21 June 2017 - 09:35 PM

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View PostNeyaru, on 21 June 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

 

Cannons have a tier for a purpose.

 

 

The tier had a purpose when we had matchmaking which took modules into account.  Basically if you had that gun on a tier VI tank you would be rated as a stock tier VII.

 

Today they have no purpose.  They can be useful for helping newbies select the "best" gun but sometimes the highest tiered gun is not the best for that tank.



gpalsson #12 Posted 22 June 2017 - 08:44 AM

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Sometimes I just get very surprised about the things some people complain about.

ederfe #13 Posted 22 June 2017 - 08:48 AM

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I think the conclusion that can be drawn is that the tiering of guns is something which could should be left out of the game as it has no point other than to confuse some people.

Edited by ederfe, 22 June 2017 - 08:49 AM.


Aikl #14 Posted 22 June 2017 - 09:03 AM

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Probably just arbitrary. Makes stuff looks better, or just easier to see the difference without looking at the numbers for damage and penetration - which is kind of logical, even if the top gun doesn't always offer superior overall performance in certain vehicles. 

 

On a side note, low-tier US tanks get a "T9" radio with 615m range (only available on tanks up to T6), whilst most German premiums get a "T6" radio with 710m range. :P






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