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Question about bringing back armor into the game


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ortega456 #1 Posted 28 June 2017 - 09:34 AM

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Hey Guys,

 

with the introduction of that "OP" premiums and overbuffed Superheavies I want to raise up a topic:

 

For a long time people were complaining that armor is useless and "bring armor back into the game" and gold ammo destroys it. As of now there are some pretty tough tanks to penetrate even with premium ammo.

 

Why is everybody complaining about that fact now even when so many people actually wanted WG to make armor tough enough to be able to withstand what is shot at it and if WG did so many people hate WG for that.

 

What am I missing here?



Hedgehog1963 #2 Posted 28 June 2017 - 09:38 AM

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View Postortega456, on 28 June 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Hey Guys,

 

with the introduction of that "OP" premiums and overbuffed Superheavies I want to raise up a topic:

 

For a long time people were complaining that armor is useless and "bring armor back into the game" and gold ammo destroys it. As of now there are some pretty tough tanks to penetrate even with premium ammo.

 

Why is everybody complaining about that fact now even when so many people actually wanted WG to make armor tough enough to be able to withstand what is shot at it and if WG did so many people hate WG for that.

 

What am I missing here?

 

The accusation is that WG are selling "OP" premium tanks with such good armour they can only be defeated by using premium ammo with the sole intention of promoting the use of premium ammo.   The same is said about certain Tier X HT also.

 

I'm unconvinced myself.


Edited by Hedgehog1963, 28 June 2017 - 09:39 AM.


signal11th #3 Posted 28 June 2017 - 09:52 AM

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Bringing back/creating tanks with great armour but without adding weakspots that normal ammo has a chance of penning lends to the belief that WG are forcing people to spam prem ammo.

_EXODUZ_ #4 Posted 28 June 2017 - 09:55 AM

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View Postortega456, on 28 June 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

 

 

What am I missing here?

 

Just different crowds complaining.

IncandescentGerbil #5 Posted 28 June 2017 - 09:55 AM

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I have a type 5. For all its reputation, it is flat and slow and massive, and EASILY penned with heat. Its only purpose in the increasingly P2W climate is to encourage gold usage against it, and so make WG more money.
In an ideal world there would not be gold ammo in the game. Map design would allow flanking etc. But of course WG makes a ton of cash from premium shells so it will never change.
My main problem, in a nutshell, is the cynicism of it all.

Zhongze_Li #6 Posted 28 June 2017 - 09:59 AM

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This is the immediate consequence with having a gold ammo. You cannot balance things against normal ammo when people WILL spam gold since it gives them advantage, and if you balance tanks against gold it's just downright forcing people to use gold ammo. IMO this type of ammo should go altogether, or they needs to have significant drawback apart from price (which makes it not a premium ammo anymore).

Edited by Zhongze_Li, 28 June 2017 - 10:00 AM.


anonym_MSqPBzxRtsaO #7 Posted 28 June 2017 - 10:15 AM

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View Post_EXODUZ_, on 28 June 2017 - 09:55 AM, said:

Just different crowds complaining.

 

Pretty much this, WoT's playerbase is unpleasable by default. Change one thing that some will appreciate, everyone else will complain.

I would also blame the combination of corridors with limited flanking opportunities plus shameless gold spam regardless of target, especially gold spam (not sure if WG balances tanks around gold but if they do the players indirectly asked for it).

Edited by PanzerVor87, 28 June 2017 - 10:17 AM.


HugSeal #8 Posted 28 June 2017 - 10:37 AM

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View Postortega456, on 28 June 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Hey Guys,

 

with the introduction of that "OP" premiums and overbuffed Superheavies I want to raise up a topic:

 

For a long time people were complaining that armor is useless and "bring armor back into the game" and gold ammo destroys it. As of now there are some pretty tough tanks to penetrate even with premium ammo.

 

Why is everybody complaining about that fact now even when so many people actually wanted WG to make armor tough enough to be able to withstand what is shot at it and if WG did so many people hate WG for that.

 

What am I missing here?

 

The problem was that you just needed to load gold to pen things. Now you have to load gold to actually pen things and most tanks STILL get buttered by gold.

 

 



__Jaobz__ #9 Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:16 AM

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I have no problem with armour. Nor do I have a problem with the armoured new prem tanks, if peeps want to throw money at them I don't care.

I have a problem with the necessity to fire gold ammo at the super heavies and the new prem tanks though. Because they come with no weakspots. On the already existing super heavies like the Maus, what weakspots were there in the past are now gone. In the ideal game those weakspots would persist so I and others with the wish for a real challenge had a way to actually play this game properly.

As it is right now I find it increasingly boring an seriously consider abandoning the game.


Edited by __Jaobz__, 28 June 2017 - 11:17 AM.


Hedgehog1963 #10 Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:34 AM

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View Post__Jaobz__, on 28 June 2017 - 10:16 AM, said:

I have no problem with armour. Nor do I have a problem with the armoured new prem tanks, if peeps want to throw money at them I don't care.

I have a problem with the necessity to fire gold ammo at the super heavies and the new prem tanks though. Because they come with no weakspots. On the already existing super heavies like the Maus, what weakspots were there in the past are now gone. In the ideal game those weakspots would persist so I and others with the wish for a real challenge had a way to actually play this game properly.

As it is right now I find it increasingly boring an seriously consider abandoning the game.

 

There isn't a tank in the game that has no weakspots.  This is why I zone out this kind of post.

Gvozdika #11 Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:41 AM

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The problem is that there is no single silver bullet to solve it. This is because there are several different things they've tried to no avail.

 

1) Power-creep (specifically pen creep) with guns. Tier 10 TDs in particular can 'negate' armour thanks to high penetration on standard rounds - MTs + HTs packing 260+ pen also contributed similarly. They dialled back ALL gun penetration on an early Sandbox - but this just made everyone spam gold instead (see below) and didn't fix the issue.

 

2) Gold ammo / premium ammo for credits. With enough credits - you could take your T-54 out for a spin and send HEAT shells smacking into hapless victims whatever armour they happened to have; at long range from a mobile platform. Armour effectiveness generally went out the window the moment the '2' key was pressed. Still no solution to this - since tanks which are balanced okay vs. standard rounds tend to suffer when premium is fired at them - tanks which are balanced vs. gold rounds are OP vs. standard rounds.

 

3) Accuracy buffs, then nerfs, then less nerfs. Made hitting weakspots easier for everyone across the board - stuff like the T110E5 was virtually unplayable thanks to IS-7s snapshotting your cupola. Then WG went back and made the distribution wafty again for everyone. Personally think they should set shot distribution per weapon (so make accurate guns have less RNG within the aim circle - less accurate guns more) - that's an issue for another time.

 

4) Removing weakspots. This has some merits on some tanks - stuff like the Tortoise would benefit from not getting shot in the cupola, MG port, turret roof ALL.... THE ..... TIME. Certain overmatch zones could do with being looked at (Tiger II roof, IS-4 roof, etc.) However a blanket policy of making heavies virtually impregnable to standard rounds from the frontal arc just leads to people pressing '2' and you're back to square 1 again. That's why the Chrysler caused such a fuss - since it is immune to sub-220mm pen rounds, no weakspots to go for if you pack anything less or don't use premium. The CHK is a good example of an armour scheme that is very good vs. standard rounds but gets punched full of holes when high-pen guns and/or premium comes along.

 

5) Doing a 'Maus' special. Taking an armoured heavy and making it VERY armoured to the point that even premium rounds don't always work. I'm in two minds about this - since the Maus was genuinely terrible for a long time - it was just dire compared to the E-100 and there was virtually no reason to take it along. The trouble was that WG went overboard and gave it a firepower boost on top of the armour boost + removed/reduced the frontal weakspots - when just one of those might have been enough. Too much done to it all at the same time. (Same for Type 5 Heavy - Armour Boost AND Premium HE Land-Arty cannon).

 

Sooooo. If they want to remedy the use of armour, they have to balance ALL of the above (weak-spots, premium ammo, armour, other factors - all balanced vs. eachother). At the moment WG seem to be hitting one area at a time without considering the wider implications.


Edited by Gvozdika, 28 June 2017 - 11:43 AM.


tajj7 #12 Posted 28 June 2017 - 11:43 AM

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View Post_EXODUZ_, on 28 June 2017 - 08:55 AM, said:

 

Just different crowds complaining.

 

This basically.

 

The 'armour is useless' crowd has been around for ages and they are generally bad players who play heavy tanks, play them terribly then complain that 'armour is useless'. It's WG pandering to 'Steve the dad' heavy tank driver that has created this mess.

 

Corridor maps, OP premiums and overebuffed super heavies are the result, when in reality it's mainly a learn to play issue.  Sure some premium ammo is a little too strong, but overall people fail in heavy tanks not because of premium ammo or their armour being bad but because they don't angle, don't sidescrape, have terrible positioning so drive into cross fires, drive out sideways showing their drive wheel etc.

 

Basic lack of heavy tanks skills is the problem



Gremlin182 #13 Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:12 PM

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Love the endless P2Win argument almost as much as the Gold ammo and SPG arguments.

However this time there is some evidence,

Documents have come to light that the Germans were appalled by HVAP ammo being used against their tanks.

Goebbels declared that this was just further proof that America was paying to win the war instead of doing it properly.

Rommel said but we use HEAT so its just the same thing, they shipped him off to Normandy to shut him up.

 

After I bounced 2 or maybe 3 shells at a target I will change to premium ammo.

If experience in the game tells me that specific targets are difficult or almost impossible to pen over a certain range then I may begin with premium.

If too the matches I am put into means I meet a lot of such tanks then I take even more premium.

I know this goes against the reasoning of some players that states that if you have a crappy gun that's just the game working as intended and you must get closer or flank.

Of course they also believe that its perfectly fine that they can blow the ! out of me while I attempt that and that this is also the game working as intended.

 

Buying premium ammo with some of my 28 million credits is cheating and somehow enabling wargaming to make money..

 

 



CmdRatScabies #14 Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:17 PM

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View Postortega456, on 28 June 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

What am I missing here?

 

Customers / players often don't know what they need.  It's why you don't simply do what people ask.

gpalsson #15 Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:27 PM

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Bring back armor:

I never heard this from good players.

Good players already knew that HTs won most pubbie battles 1 year ago before WG decided to go full retard with armor. It's just that HTs do not flex as well and driving HTs aren't as fun in general for most good players, and bad players didn't understand that so they blamed the game for not providing means for them to win game purely by what tank they were driving.

Then we got MAUS and defender.

Finally bad players can pick a tank and win games purely because of the tank they are driving.



HundeWurst #16 Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:31 PM

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Armor was never lost or left behind or whatever you want to call it like a lot of people wanted others to belive as well.

 

 

I canot come up with accurate numbers but I am pretty certain that whenever we got one of these "Armor is worthless ...qqq" topics popped up one of the following was true:

  1. It was more about gold ammo
  2. It was more about arty
  3. The OP had no understanding of the game, his wet dream - sitting in the E100 entirely in the open and bouncing everything - was supposed to come true.

Pick whatever you like but show me one thread about worthless armor which did not include any of that.

 

Wargaming in their unquestionable and infinit wisdom did what any good RASHA company would do, might if be of digital or real world nature.

Instead of analysing the problem first they decided to "something", like shooting things in the dark. What we got is the overbuff of armor. Then they soon figured out that that is a perfect hidden pay2win thing they can make happen even more. Now we will get plenty of overbuffed tanks so we all can shoot gold at them and Wargaming is making tons of money while the gameplay goes down the drain.

 

If they would have done a propper job they would have soon realized what the cause of the "decay" of armor was:

  1. Arty - high calibre HE shells making armor worthless, even a hinderance since these tanks are often slow.
  2. Gold ammo - Obviously bad for the gameplay, but hey it makes WG lots of money so why bother fixing that for once.
  3. Slightly to high standard round penetration values of some tanks or classes, hello tier 10 TDs.

Now if we would like to rank these 3 points by their significance: 75% arty, 20% gold ammo and 5% high standard penetration.

Now the second arty got changed, yes changed and not improved, armor was back in the game. Taking away the biggest problem armor encountered buffed it in a passive way to an extreme extend. Non of the armorbuffs we have seen this year would have been needed if WG would have waited a bit.

Then again WG is happy about the current situation. Everybody is spamming gold and their register goes like *shink shink shink shink....*.


Edited by WunderWurst, 28 June 2017 - 12:38 PM.


Balc0ra #17 Posted 28 June 2017 - 12:59 PM

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Only thing that shows is that you can't please everyone at the same time. WG did kinda listen to the people saying armor is worthless. So by pleasing those, as in buffing the Maus, Type 5, or even adding premium tanks that could use it's armor. You silence one side, to awake the other. That now complains that they have to use gold ammo on everything.

 

Thus they have to find an new balance point. Only to start the circle again from there. As there is no point that will please a 100% of the player population. There will always be someone that don't like it, and pushes it back. Basically making balance in this game.. the infinity symbol.

 

 


Edited by Balc0ra, 28 June 2017 - 12:59 PM.


Capus #18 Posted 28 June 2017 - 01:17 PM

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View Postortega456, on 28 June 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

Hey Guys,

 

with the introduction of that "OP" premiums and overbuffed Superheavies I want to raise up a topic:

 

For a long time people were complaining that armor is useless and "bring armor back into the game" and gold ammo destroys it. As of now there are some pretty tough tanks to penetrate even with premium ammo.

 

Why is everybody complaining about that fact now even when so many people actually wanted WG to make armor tough enough to be able to withstand what is shot at it and if WG did so many people hate WG for that.

 

What am I missing here?

 

The way i see it, is:

 

- ammo used to be balanced around AP before the premium ammo for silver bs. And armor worked back then, but there were frontal weakspots that could be exploited.

- premium ammo for silver got introduced, result, armor didn't do anything anymore

- so now WG balances all armor around premium shells while also removing frontal weakspot, thereby making AP obsolete, and pointless

 

So in short the only thing that happened is that now the running cost of playing the game has increased, the skill required has decreased because the "hit frontal weakspots to dmg" mechanic is changed by "shoot premium ammo" mechanic. While balancing the game around premium ammo and increasing the running cost the income stayed the same (some say it even dropped for premium tanks, dono about that one).

 

Combine this with more corridor maps which make flanking virtualy impossible and a bunch of other nonsense and you now have a stupid game where you don't need to get better to do more dmg, you just need to spend more credits. Only when you max out the credits that you use per battle do you need to improve yourself.

 

And that's the problem, the best player should win tank battles, not the one that spends most silver to do so. And this is why this game is getting P2W. The quantity of buffs to your tank that you can get with silver these days are just too much. And don't even get me started on the BS T8 premium spam, all of those are tanks that are there to increase the running cost for other players. That is all they contribute to the game.

 

In short, you now have 2 kinds of players, premium players who just spam gold and take no loss or just a small one, and other players who can only afford to fire a few premium shells. This also contributes to 15-2 games, as the team with most gold spammers stands a pretty good chance of winning.



Bucifel #19 Posted 28 June 2017 - 01:54 PM

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View Postortega456, on 28 June 2017 - 09:34 AM, said:

Hey Guys,

 

with the introduction of that "OP" premiums and overbuffed Superheavies I want to raise up a topic:

 

For a long time people were complaining that armor is useless and "bring armor back into the game" and gold ammo destroys it. As of now there are some pretty tough tanks to penetrate even with premium ammo.

 

Why is everybody complaining about that fact now even when so many people actually wanted WG to make armor tough enough to be able to withstand what is shot at it and if WG did so many people hate WG for that.

 

What am I missing here?

 

what you miss? so simply..

weakpoints, chance for enemys to damage and kill your tank and for you too...to kill/damage enemys with STANDARD ammo.

 

forcing players to spam gold due to this lack of weakpoints, and you know...vs gold, armor is still useless but now worst for standard ammo.

 

so all what they did was a gold spam increase, no difference for armor.



Zhongze_Li #20 Posted 28 June 2017 - 02:03 PM

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View PostGvozdika, on 28 June 2017 - 11:41 AM, said:

Sooooo. If they want to remedy the use of armour, they have to balance ALL of the above (weak-spots, premium ammo, armour, other factors - all balanced vs. eachother). At the moment WG seem to be hitting one area at a time without considering the wider implications.

 

This is exactly the problem, and the recent rush of implementing new contents just make things worse. People are fed-up with existing problems and the new ones (*cough* rank battle *cough*) just introduce / expose more of them. I hope they realise that there needs to be a continuing strategy with regards to solving these long-standing problems and show us a plan instead of randomly hitting things and creates more problem and player dissatisfaction.

 

Change won't be easy, and it comes with pains, but not telling players what the direction is and winning their support and understanding is the last thing you need to do when you want to change things.


Edited by Zhongze_Li, 28 June 2017 - 02:03 PM.





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