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WG, listen up, this is how you should change the Type 4 Heavy and Type 5 Heavy (contains poll)

type 4 type 5 heavy japan nerf buff rebalance 9.20

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Poll: Type 4 Heavy and Type 5 Heavy (74 members have cast votes)

You have to complete 250 battles in order to participate this poll.

Derp gun. What do you think that what should be done for the derp gun? (15 cm /45 41st Year Type)

  1. Remove it. (42 votes [56.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 56.76%

  2. Keep it, but remove or nerf the premium HE with 1400 alpha. (11 votes [14.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.86%

  3. Keep it, remove/nerf premium HE, slightly buff the reload to compensate (4 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

  4. Keep it, remove/nerf premium HE, add AP shell with 150-200 pen and 750 alpha instead (6 votes [8.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.11%

  5. Keep it and dont make changes. (11 votes [14.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.86%

The AP gun. What you think about the original gun of the Type 4 and Type 5, the non-derp gun (14 cm/50 3rd Year Type)?

  1. It is definitely underperforming and needs major buffs. (20 votes [27.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.03%

  2. It is slightly underperforming and needs minor buffs. (33 votes [44.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.59%

  3. It is fine. (18 votes [24.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.32%

  4. It is actually too good and needs nerfs. (3 votes [4.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.05%

If you think the 14cm gun needs buffs, what should be buffed on it? If you dont think it needs buffs, choose answer 8.

  1. The penetration (normal AP, gold AP or both) (24 votes [32.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.43%

  2. Accuracy. (1 vote [1.35%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.35%

  3. Gun handling. (4 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

  4. DPM. (7 votes [9.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.46%

  5. All of them. (13 votes [17.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.57%

  6. Some of them (mention in topic!). (6 votes [8.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.11%

  7. Other (mention in topic!). (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  8. The 14cm doesnt need buffs. (19 votes [25.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.68%

Type 4 Heavy (tier 9). What you think about it?

  1. It is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. (13 votes [17.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.57%

  2. It is both overpowered and broken. It needs rework, but overall nerf. (11 votes [14.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.86%

  3. It is not overpowered, but its broken. It needs rework. (30 votes [40.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.54%

  4. It is balanced. (7 votes [9.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.46%

  5. It is overall underperforming but still broken. It needs rework, but overall buff. (8 votes [10.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.81%

  6. It is underperforming and needs to be buffed. (5 votes [6.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.76%

Type 5 Heavy (tier 10). What you think about it?

  1. It is overpowered and needs to be nerfed. (21 votes [28.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 28.38%

  2. It is both overpowered and broken. It needs rework, but overall nerf. (28 votes [37.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.84%

  3. It is not overpowered, but its broken. It needs rework. (13 votes [17.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.57%

  4. It is balanced. (7 votes [9.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.46%

  5. It is overall underperforming but still broken. It needs rework, but overall buff. (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. It is underperforming and needs to be buffed. (5 votes [6.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.76%

Type 4's (tier 9) armor. What you think about it?

  1. Simply nerf the armor thickness, dont add weakspots (6 votes [8.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.11%

  2. Keep the armor the way it is now and add weakspots (40 votes [54.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 54.05%

  3. Increase thicknesses of non-weak areas of armor but add weakspots (9 votes [12.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.16%

  4. Keep the armor the way it is, increase hull cheek armor (3 votes [4.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.05%

  5. Keep the armor the way it is, incraese hull cheek armor, add weakspots (8 votes [10.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.81%

  6. Simply buff the armor thickness (8 votes [10.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.81%

  7. Other (mention in topic!). (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Type 5's (tier 10) armor. What you think about it?

  1. Simply nerf the armor thickness, dont add weakspots (9 votes [12.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.16%

  2. Keep the armor the way it is now and add weakspots (41 votes [55.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 55.41%

  3. Increase thicknesses of non-weak areas of armor but add weakspots (4 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

  4. Keep the armor the way it is now but decrease side armor (2 votes [2.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.70%

  5. Keep the armor the way it is, add weakspots and decrease side armor (7 votes [9.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.46%

  6. Increase thicknesses of non weak areas of armor, add weakspots, decrease side armor (4 votes [5.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.41%

  7. Simply buff the armor thickness (7 votes [9.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.46%

  8. Other (mention in topic!). (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

What do you think about changes I proposed? (read topic)

  1. I think they are good and would help to make Type 4/5 more balanced (47 votes [63.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.51%

  2. It wouldnt help, Type 4/5 would be still broken. (9 votes [12.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.16%

  3. I think they are bad and would make them even more unbalanced. (9 votes [12.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.16%

  4. Other (9 votes [12.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.16%

Vote Hide poll

leggasiini #1 Posted 01 July 2017 - 02:55 PM

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Since WG buffed the Type 4 and Type 5, they instantly caused lots of controversiality. With that being said, WG has responsed to this, now surprisingly quickly (took "only" 4 months, thats huge improvement from 1,5 years of fixing the "mistake" that was E5 cupola, grats, its something), and are bringing Type 4 and Type 5 changes to supertest, that are probably in their way to come in the patch 9.20. These include:

 

- armor decreased on driver hatch and the secondary 37mm gun hatch. (type 4: 250 -> 240 and 230, type 5: 270 -> 260 and 250)

- traverse speed decreased

- turret traverse speed decreased

 

Keep on mind these are just supertest changes and are probably not final. However, I dont think it would be enough to fix the vehicles. 

 

The major problem on Type 4 and Type 5 (among with all Japanese heavies) as I already addressed in "Japanese heavy tank rework proposal", are these:

 

1. Armor that encourages gold spam due to lack of weakspots but is almost worthless against gold because completely flat and unangleable(though not 100% true on the Type 5 Heavy because it can angle and has stupidly thick armor).

2. Derp guns.

3. Derp gun being p2w due to premium HE shells that do directly more damage with no drawbacks.. (only the case on Type 4 and 5)

3. AP guns being poor and almost completely or even completely unviable, especially when derp guns are just better(tier 8-10 especially)

 

The change WG is planning does address the first problem but only partially (it doesnt change the fact that the entire front is just flat wall that you can gold spam at, unlike E100 and Maus which have very good upper plate armor, and while the weakspots could work on Type 4 Heavy against same tier tanks, they are still arguably too strong on Type 5), and does nothing to the guns they have.

 

I already made Japanese HT rework proposal and addressed the Type 4 and Type 5. That is however more complicated changes; it envolves changing the vehicle model and so on. I assume WG wants to go "lazier" way. Fortunately, it is still doable to balance them by going that "lazier" way.

 

So, what I would do to Type 4 and Type 5 if i were the balance head:

 

- remove derp gun entirely. Doing this kills two birds with one stone (removes two problems, P2W and having megaderp on hightier tank)

- buff the 14cm gun

- increase armor thicknesses of some parts in front, however, implement the weakspot WG proposed, but around 20mm thinner than that, also make cupola weaker but smaller

 

Here is more detailed changes for both tanks:

 

Type 4 Heavy:

 

Spoiler

 

Type 5 Heavy:

 

Spoiler

 

The armor got changed, the 14cm got buffed and derp guns are gone. The 14cm gun is somewhat similar to E 100's gun. It has better accuracy,  better gun handling and AP penetration, but has worse alpha (600 VS 750) and its gold AP has less pen than E100's HEAT. In return, Type 5 is bigger, slower and has less angleable turret than E100, but has thicker armor on front, more HP and -10 depression. Type 4 in return is basically toned down version of its brother, like most tier 9s are.

 

There is chance however that WG is against removing the derp gun. While I think it should be gone (and I personally like derp guns, but dont think they belong to tier 9-10 vehicles), there is other solutions. Not as good, but can still help.

 

If derp gun has to stay, I would do this:

 

15 cm/45 41st Year Type

 

  • decrease alpha damage on premium ammo from 1400 to 1100
  • increase splash radius on premium ammo
  • add AP shell with 750 alpha and 150 - 180 mm penetration
  • decrease reload time from 19.18 seconds to 18.18 seconds (type 5) / 23.49 seconds to 22.49 seconds (type 4)

 

The HE shells derp gun carries no longer do more damage than normal HE. Derp gun has bit faster reload, but it overall is a nerf. In addition, the derp gun receives AP shell to use it against lowly armored targets that however has enough armor to resist HE, as well as overmatching hull/turret roofs.

 

--------

 

I like the fact WG is reacting to balancing things bit quicker than before (still too slowly), but I feel like the Type 4/5 changes they are planning are not enough. What do you think?


Edited by leggasiini, 01 July 2017 - 02:58 PM.


thiextar #2 Posted 01 July 2017 - 03:18 PM

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Derp gun needs to go, and weakspots need to come back. The latter goes for all super-heavys

Dr_Oolen #3 Posted 01 July 2017 - 03:29 PM

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thats pretty much exactly what i would do myself, but id nerf the weakspots by additional 10 mm

too bad wg balance department are [edited]and will never do any such sensible changes



CmdPrompt #4 Posted 01 July 2017 - 03:37 PM

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none of these changes matter unless they remove skill ammo, I don't play the type 5 after i finished tott because of everyone just derping gold at you nonstop (same with the maus, but the maus can somewhat angle)

Edited by CmdPrompt, 01 July 2017 - 03:38 PM.


Maaaaaad #5 Posted 01 July 2017 - 03:56 PM

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The type 5 was given a derp gun because it was absolutely useless before and now with the derp it's ok'ish depending on the map and you want to take away it's defence? Nobody will play the Jap heavies if they lose their derp and the high tiers will end up as world of Russian tanks. Look at derp guns through the tiers and things like a hetzer with bouncy armour and 350 alpha derp or the kv2 and 900 odd alpha at tier 6. Why is that ok and a derp on a tier 9 or 10 heavy isn't? 

 

The type 4 and 5 are slow arty magnets and it's hard to even get to the battle front without being shot to death by arty. If caught in the open they are trash, you just get shot from all angles at distance and what can you do with a slow reload derp gun that's massively inaccurate? 

 

Make the interesting tanks like the type 4 and 5 useless again and bang goes the game diversity. You will be left with all the Russian clones which are even getting another buff I read. I don't understand all the hate for these Jap heavies they have very limited use really unlike all the fast moving well armoured meds with great guns flying aound the map.



Bucifel #6 Posted 01 July 2017 - 04:07 PM

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you waste your time

wg dont care about proper balance like this

they just care about incomes

 

:facepalm:



Cobra6 #7 Posted 01 July 2017 - 04:17 PM

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These tanks need weakspots which are viable shots for a minimum roll of a gun of the same tier.

 

That means that the weakspots on the T10 need to be a maximum of 220mm thick. The weakspots on the T9 need to be a maximum of 190mm thick.

 

Cobra 6



Maaaaaad #8 Posted 01 July 2017 - 04:21 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 01 July 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

These tanks need weakspots which are viable shots for a minimum roll of a gun of the same tier.

 

That means that the weakspots on the T10 need to be a maximum of 220mm thick. The weakspots on the T9 need to be a maximum of 190mm thick.

 

Cobra 6

 

They are the size of a house and have two giant weakspots along each side of the house which can be shot from 500 meters away by anything even another jap heavy.

Bambodos #9 Posted 01 July 2017 - 04:29 PM

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Good poll!

Cobra6 #10 Posted 01 July 2017 - 04:49 PM

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View PostMaaaaaad, on 01 July 2017 - 03:21 PM, said:

 

They are the size of a house and have two giant weakspots along each side of the house which can be shot from 500 meters away by anything even another jap heavy.

 

Good luck with getting to their sides in World of Corridors.

 

Tanks need frontal weakspots like they always have had until about 1-1,5 years ago.

 

Cobra 6



Nishi_Kinuyo #11 Posted 01 July 2017 - 08:27 PM

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1: Weakspots are definitely needed.

  • Without weakspots, people are forced to spam gold; no-one likes it.
  • Weakspots should, imo, offer at least some protection so it is not an auto-pen area for tanks 2 tiers lower.
  • Side armour is, imo, fine as it is. Only some tier 8 tanks with stock cannons got issues with it.

2: 15cm/45 41st Year Type need a rework.

  • The goldshell should not simply be 100% better than the standard HE shell.
  • Addition of an AP shell is preferable.
  • AP shell should be viable enough against most targets to remove the need for (premium) HE spam.
  • Possibly add a premium AP shell in place for the premium HE shell.
  • Alternatively, give premium HE shell better penetration while retaining standard HE damage.

3: The 14cm/50 3rd Year Type needs rework.

  • DPM is simply atrocious, only the PzKpfwVII has worse. A tank which has almost the same alpha, and vastly better AP penetration and better handling.
  • Penetration is pretty rubbish as well, especially without the accuracy to really aim for weakspots, it being tied for worse accuracy on a tier 10 heavy; the others being the E100 with OP HEAT and the IS-7 with MT mobility.
  • Handling on turret traverse is rubbish. Only the T57 having worse, and that being an autoloader with flatout the best base DPM on a tier 10 HT.
  • The only thing really going for the cannon is, currently, the alpha and the calibre for overmatch purposes, since it can overmatch 45mm plates for whatever that is worth, since there's barely any improvement for that between 122mm and 139mm.


Etre_ #12 Posted 01 July 2017 - 09:27 PM

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"WG, listen up" .... hahahahahaha

 

So much arrogance. Some people have suffer from too much entitlement. 



leggasiini #13 Posted 01 July 2017 - 09:28 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 01 July 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

2: 15cm/45 41st Year Type need a rework.

  • The goldshell should not simply be 100% better than the standard HE shell.
  • Addition of an AP shell is preferable.
  • AP shell should be viable enough against most targets to remove the need for (premium) HE spam.
  • Possibly add a premium AP shell in place for the premium HE shell.
  • Alternatively, give premium HE shell better penetration while retaining standard HE damage.

 

Good idea, I never thought about this.

 

There wouldnt be need of full removal of the gun. Only concern id the fact E 100's speciality is highest non derp HT alpha in the game...and that would be less special. However, I dont think it would be a problem. 

 

If reworked to AP gun (maybe keep the 1100 alpha HE though), I feel like the accuracy should be buffed to 0.4X instead of 0.5X. The gun handling should be buffed too, but it should be still pretty bad though. RoF is fine, its same as E 100. Penetration should be around same levels as current 14cm. Instead of relying on gold to pen heavily armored targets, you have powerful HE shells.

 

I tried 14cm on test server and the main real problem is the penetration. Really, if you buff penetration to 259/302, aswell as either accuracy or gun handling, it already would be pretty good gun and much better than it is now.



Zodiac1960s #14 Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:30 AM

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View Postthiextar, on 01 July 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

Derp gun needs to go, and weakspots need to come back. The latter goes for all super-heavys

Remove autoloaders and unpenetrateble turrets too!



Hyster #15 Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:52 AM

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OP is a re-rolling stat padder, so of course a tank he has to use brains to play against needs a MAJOR nerf as gold is unreliable.

:child: :facepalm::child: :arta:



tajj7 #16 Posted 02 July 2017 - 01:05 PM

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Remove derp gun, add weakspots and then add armour that is able to resist premium ammo if used correctly.  So basically what you said, E100, IS7. IS4, E5 etc. these tanks have strong armour that is able to resist premium ammo but also weakspots that same tier tanks can pen reliably. 

 

I honestly detest the japanese heavy line and they have essentially become the 'new' arty in my eyes, as in the no skill easy mode class that just makes playing heavy tanks a pain. 



leggasiini #17 Posted 02 July 2017 - 02:34 PM

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View PostHyster, on 02 July 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

OP is a re-rolling stat padder, so of course a tank he has to use brains to play against needs a MAJOR nerf as gold is unreliable.

:child: :facepalm::child: :arta:

 

...look at my most played tank, lmao

 

And before I rerolled I had total 7000 battles with Japanese heavies so.


Edited by leggasiini, 02 July 2017 - 04:11 PM.


arthurwellsley #18 Posted 02 July 2017 - 03:03 PM

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@leggasiini

Sensible suggestions, and well set out neutral poll.

Good work.

My goodness, you appear too intelligent and diligent to be a poster on these forums!



Swoopie #19 Posted 02 July 2017 - 03:11 PM

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Why people even try to defend the derp guns when it's obvious they're broken? "Oh you're angling your armor, lemme just shoot this HE shell in your general direction and do 500 dmg anyway".




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