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Why did I not spot IS until after it shot?


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Squirting_Elephant #1 Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:51 PM

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My question occurs for ingame time: 12:39 (or 2:18 in video)

 

  • Distance between tanks: 119m according to addon.
  • I have bino, vents, 100% commander and I have more viewrange than the capped value. I can almost compete with a lighttank.
  • Enemy tank is a heavy tank, IS, even if he had camo net deployed and be standing still (can't, he had to be moving to appear there again) and behind a good bush and etc. etc. I would still spot him at twice this distance according to Camo calc.
  • My 'spot-point' was aimed at him all this time (because my gun was sticking out all the time aimed directly at him) as you can see and 2/3rd of his tank must have passed my spot-point when he drove backwards (I guess he tried to sidescrape me?)
  • Updated: Sorry I had no situational awareness.

 

So why did I not spot him until he shot me?


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 07 July 2017 - 05:21 PM.


saidor #2 Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:08 PM

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This happens to me a lot. I can only assume your opponents connection is better than yours. Even though my ping is generally under 30, if it comes to me and an opponent meeting up on a who shoots first wins situation I am almost always shot before he even appears fully on the screen with his turret still apparently obscured.

 



Slyspy #3 Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:19 PM

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Possibilities:

 

1) The situational aspects of the spotting system (in this case the relative position of spotting points and viewpoints coupled with solid cover, potential double bush cover and limited viewing arc).

2) Network blip between you and the server.



Balc0ra #4 Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:19 PM

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Most of his tank was covered by more then one bush, and a fallen tree by the looks of it "no free cam mod" . And the more soft cover you have. The harder it will be to spot something behind it. Even more so if he is 15m or more behind the one closest to you.

 

He was standing still when he was firing, as he reversed out to do so behind all those bushes and fallen trees. And you were aiming down a narrow gap, so your "spot" lines don't even cover most of the area he was hiding in. But if you look down your sight, near the crack in the wall. You might notice that when you did spot him, you had a direct line on a small part of his rear hull past his cover. I suspect your spot lines did spot him there when he fired due to the camo drop. As we don't know how long he stood there for when he fired. But considering all the layers he had between you two, it's hard for you to spot anything until he had reversed past that point I suspect.


Edited by Balc0ra, 03 July 2017 - 05:20 PM.


Squirting_Elephant #5 Posted 06 July 2017 - 10:51 AM

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View Postsaidor, on 03 July 2017 - 04:08 PM, said:

This happens to me a lot. I can only assume your opponents connection is better than yours.

Even if I would have 200 ping (which equals 200ms x2) that would still mean that he should be visible within 400ms (or less than half a second!). So that is unlikely to be the case. But my ping was really low so that can not be the case unless the server had some 'throughput' problems somewhere.

 

So you two think it was the double bush? I doubt a double bush can hide a moving IS-heavy tank on 119m distance with overcapped spot-radius.

 

I believe that the IS-tank MUST have moved into that position. Because last time I spotted him he was to the right of my spotting-point. When he shot he was on the left side and moving back to the right side again. And he did not have enough time to go (unspotted) around 3 building blocks (actually even then he must also have moved). There is no other way really. So okay double bush, but he was moving giving him a 50% penalty.

 

Even if we consider him not to have moved, can he really be invisible? I mean... 119m distance vs overcapped-spotrange (basically the max a T30 can get without chocolates) then the double bush can't possible hide a heavy tank on that distance or can it? Is there a camo-calculator somewhere for double bush? Or does that count as a dense bush?

 

Spotting system in WoT is sometimes extremely weird. Even when it behaves as intended sometimes you don't spot tanks because all of their detection points are hidden. But the game does not count that. That's always really odd. Like standing behind an open window on 51m distance with no cover in between but enemy can't spot you, not even after firing, because detection points are all covered...

This also causes the silly spotting by LT's who just drive on a hill and only have their guns and a tiny part of turret sticking out for 0.5 second on 40-65km/h and instantly spotting TD's behind bushes 360m away.. Really.. silly... mechanic imo but okay.


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 06 July 2017 - 10:57 AM.


OreH75 #6 Posted 06 July 2017 - 12:33 PM

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View this page, so your replay gets converted to a YT movie and we can see the replay without having to start WoT @Work ;)

The more views the faster it will be converted...

 

https://wotrepmachin.../replay/3684369

 

edit:  one more view and it will be the next vid to be recorded.


Edited by OreH75, 06 July 2017 - 01:06 PM.


unhappy_bunny #7 Posted 06 July 2017 - 01:01 PM

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From the Wiki. So he could have moved within that .5 sec window. Also I cant remember if he had cammo paint on him, but that and your commanders skill could be a factor as well.

 

Rate of Visibility ChecksEdit

You will not necessarily spot an enemy tank as soon as you have line of sight on it. The rate of visibility checks is limited as follows:

  • within 50 m range - every 0.1 sec
  • within 150 m range - every 0.5 sec
  • within 270 m range - every 1.0 sec
  • within 445 m range - every 2.0 sec

NOTE: While Overlord confirmed the above as still correct for 0.7.1, US community manager Vallther claimed on 23 January 2012 that the frequency of the visibility checks depends "a lot on the map" and that he "requested a total check from Q&A regarding the matter". [2]

The rate limitation on visibility checks means that it is entirely possible that a hidden tank moves out of cover right after a visibility check, shoots you, and returns back into cover right before the next visibility check, thus never getting spotted and staying hidden. This can also lead to fast tanks getting spotted only closer to you than your spotting range would normally allow - at a maximum speed of 72 km/h a tank can cross 40m between spotting checks past 270m range.

NOTE: As of 9.16 most information in the "Rate of viability checks" area is outdated, due to the updates to the spotting system that happened in that update.  [3]



OreH75 #8 Posted 06 July 2017 - 01:42 PM

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View PostOreH75, on 06 July 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

View this page, so your replay gets converted to a YT movie and we can see the replay without having to start WoT @Work ;)

The more views the faster it will be converted...

 

https://wotrepmachin.../replay/3684369

 

edit:  one more view and it will be the next vid to be recorded.

 

Done:

 

But seems pretty normal WoT mechanics at work.

 

- When IS-2 moves behind house you lost line of sight and he gets unspotted.

- (double) bushes and IS-2 camo skills make him unspottable when he drives backwards (This answers your question)

- After his shot hits the wall in front of you, you spot him because he fired.

 

 

 

 


Edited by OreH75, 06 July 2017 - 03:26 PM.


AliceUnchained #9 Posted 06 July 2017 - 01:56 PM

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View Postsaidor, on 03 July 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

This happens to me a lot. I can only assume your opponents connection is better than yours. Even though my ping is generally under 30, if it comes to me and an opponent meeting up on a who shoots first wins situation I am almost always shot before he even appears fully on the screen with his turret still apparently obscured.

 

Nearly 10.000 games and still utterly clueless...

RamRaid90 #10 Posted 06 July 2017 - 01:56 PM

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View PostBalc0ra, on 03 July 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

Most of his tank was covered by more then one bush, and a fallen tree by the looks of it "no free cam mod" . And the more soft cover you have. The harder it will be to spot something behind it. Even more so if he is 15m or more behind the one closest to you.

 

He was standing still when he was firing, as he reversed out to do so behind all those bushes and fallen trees. And you were aiming down a narrow gap, so your "spot" lines don't even cover most of the area he was hiding in. But if you look down your sight, near the crack in the wall. You might notice that when you did spot him, you had a direct line on a small part of his rear hull past his cover. I suspect your spot lines did spot him there when he fired due to the camo drop. As we don't know how long he stood there for when he fired. But considering all the layers he had between you two, it's hard for you to spot anything until he had reversed past that point I suspect.

 

IIRC if any of your visibility checkpoints are sticking out of the bush then it provides absolutely no camo bonus.

 

To OP...

 

http://forum.worldof...-tanks-and-you/

 

good thread regarding spotting and visibility.

 

 


Edited by RamRaid90, 06 July 2017 - 01:58 PM.


Squirting_Elephant #11 Posted 06 July 2017 - 04:09 PM

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View PostOreH75, on 06 July 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

- When IS-2 moves behind house you lost line of sight and he gets unspotted.

- (double) bushes and IS-2 camo skills make him unspottable when he drives backwards (This answers your question)

- After his shot hits the wall in front of you, you spot him because he fired.

I still don't understand it.

 

I tried  http://www.wotinfo.n...camo-calculator assuming the IS had camo-net (very very unlikely) and standing still (again very unlikely, if not impossible) with 100% crew, vents, etc. and 15m dense bush (no option for double bush sadly). But even in the MOST IDEAL CASE the IS-tank get's spotted by the T30 at 221m range (nevermind 119m range). And that is the PERFECT ideal case for the IS, which this was not.

 

Sadly the video does not show my addons (Webium) but my addons told me: 119m distance. Which is probably about right.

 

It seems not even to be possible to hide an IS tank (regardless of anything you do, vents, camo net, etc!) to not be spotted by my T30 (if standing still) at 119m range.

So there must be another reason. Bug, server issues, something else?

 

Update:

It seems that even a fully maxed out moving E25 is spotted by my T30 at 119m behind dense bush. So yeah... There must be another explanation for not spotting the IS in time.

 


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 06 July 2017 - 04:16 PM.


Janduin #12 Posted 06 July 2017 - 06:38 PM

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My guess is the IS-2 got hidden because you had your view ports hidden behind the corner of the building in front of you. If you had turned your turret so that the mounting point of the gun had poked around the corner you'd have spotted him. You spotted him again once you backed up, and your view ports had line on him again.
 


Edited by Janduin, 06 July 2017 - 06:40 PM.


Slyspy #13 Posted 06 July 2017 - 06:38 PM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 06 July 2017 - 04:09 PM, said:

I still don't understand it.

 

I tried  http://www.wotinfo.n...camo-calculator assuming the IS had camo-net (very very unlikely) and standing still (again very unlikely, if not impossible) with 100% crew, vents, etc. and 15m dense bush (no option for double bush sadly). But even in the MOST IDEAL CASE the IS-tank get's spotted by the T30 at 221m range (nevermind 119m range). And that is the PERFECT ideal case for the IS, which this was not.

 

Sadly the video does not show my addons (Webium) but my addons told me: 119m distance. Which is probably about right.

 

It seems not even to be possible to hide an IS tank (regardless of anything you do, vents, camo net, etc!) to not be spotted by my T30 (if standing still) at 119m range.

So there must be another reason. Bug, server issues, something else?

 

Update:

It seems that even a fully maxed out moving E25 is spotted by my T30 at 119m behind dense bush. So yeah... There must be another explanation for not spotting the IS in time.

 

 

Packet loss or no LoS between your view points and his spot points. 

Squirting_Elephant #14 Posted 06 July 2017 - 08:29 PM

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@Janduin There is a spot point on my gun, which was obviously sticking out between the buildings and directly aimed at the (invisible) IS. So no that can't be it. It's shown in the image you posted yourself (dynamic view range port).

 

Packet loss is possible. But this would be kinda problematic if that would be the reason. Because this is not exactly a super rare occurrence. And for turretless TD's in cities these cases are just terrible (they take a free shot of damage even though they were the one camping).



Balc0ra #15 Posted 06 July 2017 - 08:50 PM

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View PostRamRaid90, on 06 July 2017 - 01:56 PM, said:

 

IIRC if any of your visibility checkpoints are sticking out of the bush then it provides absolutely no camo bonus.

 

 

As I also pointed out... We have zero clue how long he did stay there. For all we know, he aimed for less then half a second before moving forward again, as his shot went really wide.

 

View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 06 July 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

@Janduin There is a spot point on my gun, which was obviously sticking out between the buildings and directly aimed at the (invisible) IS. So no that can't be it. It's shown in the image you posted yourself (dynamic view range port).

 

True. But again.. look at the area he was in. Double push cover + a fallen tree. Don't matter what your view range is then, most tanks will be hard to spot behind all that. But again, we have no idea about his movement. Nor how long he did stay there before he fired. He clearly backed out from the wall he was with when you last saw him. But all that cover he has between you and him is enough to break LOS even when he was spotted. As indicated the first time you saw him.



AliceUnchained #16 Posted 06 July 2017 - 08:51 PM

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Then try the post right after by Slyspy: No LoS between your visibility point and the IS-2 detection points. Other possibility could be map design bug (like with Siegfried line in the past, and sometimes still feels wonky) but seems unlikely as you'd expect more posts about that map and location. No LoS still seems most plausible explanation, but I'd prefer checking the map location.

RamRaid90 #17 Posted 06 July 2017 - 09:20 PM

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Looking at the video the distance to the target IS-2 was 121m when he was spotted.

 

Watching it carefully and slowing it down it actually appears as though he is hiding behind the building, breaking your LOS completely. At that point you would never have spotted him from more than 50m away as you don't have LOS.

 

He is moving when he is spotted, suggesting he moved from behind the building to take a shot. When he did this he made LOS again and once the spotting checks were done by the server he was lit up. Since the first spotting point you would have seen at that angle was the center hull front, he could practically get all of his hull out from behind the building, if this happened when a spotting check had already been completed, he would have had a little more time to get further out and fire before the next check.

 

 


Edited by RamRaid90, 06 July 2017 - 09:23 PM.


Squirting_Elephant #18 Posted 06 July 2017 - 10:52 PM

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Yes this is likely what happened:

- Enemy was visible, went to hide behind building. LoS is lost and he goes invis. Makes sense

- Enemy drives forward (not backwards as I first believed) until he can see/shoot me. His detection points MUST HAVE passed my dynamic detection point before he should have been able to spot me. He is still invisible.

- Enemy shoots, he now lits up after firing (about a second after, according to video). Projectile impacts at 2:16 and at 2:17 somewhere the enemy is lit up.

- I shoot enemy.

 

I paused the video on 2:17:

For me to get him perfectly in my crosshair like this, means that either his front OR back detection points must have passed my dynamic detection point. Regardless of whether he drove backwards or forwards. Meaning that the reason "you didn't see his detection points" is simply not true.

Secondly he MUST have been moving so no camo net can apply and he gets a 50% camo penalty for moving.

 

Seems he has 2 (maybe even 3 for his back-detection-point) bushes + fallen tree. Need some mathematician to find out what the effective camo value of the IS was before firing but while moving at 119m (or 121m depending on what addon is right I suppose). But the camo would be the only thing that makes sense (assuming no bugs).

But I find it rather crazy that I'm sometimes behind a WHOLE FOREST in my camping, camo-netted TD and the light tanks spot me 250m away. But meanwhile, I can't even spot a heavy tank 119-121m away while he is moving with this insane spotting I have on the T30... If this truly would be the answer, then camo = stupid mechanic.

 

Also I only now noticed that it took really long for the IS to become visible after he fired. If he were a fast LT he would be able to freely shoot me because of the delay. Feels very unfair but okay, is another topic.


Edited by Squirting_Elephant, 06 July 2017 - 11:00 PM.


Slyspy #19 Posted 06 July 2017 - 11:17 PM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 06 July 2017 - 10:52 PM, said:

 

But I find it rather crazy that I'm sometimes behind a WHOLE FOREST in my camping, camo-netted TD and the light tanks spot me 250m away. But meanwhile, I can't even spot a heavy tank 119-121m away while he is moving with this insane spotting I have on the T30... If this truly would be the answer, then camo = stupid mechanic.

 

This would likely be because your hypothetical TD has left one of the detection points uncovered relative to the spotter (unlike the IS here) or because you fired (like the IS here). 

 

 


Janduin #20 Posted 07 July 2017 - 12:46 AM

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View PostSquirting_Elephant, on 06 July 2017 - 07:29 PM, said:

@Janduin There is a spot point on my gun, which was obviously sticking out between the buildings and directly aimed at the (invisible) IS. So no that can't be it. It's shown in the image you posted yourself (dynamic view range port).

 

You are absolutely correct that I was wrong. Let's hope for a magical mathematician to appear.






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