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Being in Platoon = majority of games on bottom in +2 MM?


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Vokurkar #1 Posted 04 July 2017 - 07:17 PM

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Hello,

 

i have a question related to the new MM working with platoons. Is the intended function that while in platoon your MM is highly flipped towards being in +2 MM with you being bottom tier? I have been playing in platoon (2-3man) 100s of games recently on t6-8 and in like 65% of games we ended up in +2MM as bottom tier. I am able to understand that 1 evening i will be unlucky, but in couple of weeks span? On the other side, when i am playing solo, i am most of the time top tier in 3-5-7.... 

 

Dont take it wrong, i dont wanna be 3-5-7 in every game as top, but being bottom tier in t6 vs defenders is really frustrating (or any t8s), as there is not much u can do about them.... It takes so much time to kill em while they need mostly 2 shot to kill you. It would be nice, if the platoon MM was more inclined to +1 MM or 1 tier games (all tanks same tier).

 

Thanks



LaManche #2 Posted 04 July 2017 - 07:21 PM

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Platoons are messed up, you and your buddies will very often be bottom tier and yes, it looks like it's meant to be this way. 

 

That's why I only platoon in premium MM vehicles or tier IX and X.



AvalancheZ257 #3 Posted 04 July 2017 - 07:21 PM

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View PostVokurkar, on 04 July 2017 - 07:17 PM, said:

Hello,

 

i have a question related to the new MM working with platoons. Is the intended function that while in platoon your MM is highly flipped towards being in +2 MM with you being bottom tier? I have been playing in platoon (2-3man) 100s of games recently on t6-8 and in like 65% of games we ended up in +2MM as bottom tier. I am able to understand that 1 evening i will be unlucky, but in couple of weeks span? On the other side, when i am playing solo, i am most of the time top tier in 3-5-7.... 

 

Dont take it wrong, i dont wanna be 3-5-7 in every game as top, but being bottom tier in t6 vs defenders is really frustrating (or any t8s), as there is not much u can do about them.... It takes so much time to kill em while they need mostly 2 shot to kill you. It would be nice, if the platoon MM was more inclined to +1 MM or 1 tier games (all tanks same tier).

 

Thanks

 

It was pointed out in the patch notes that platoons would be bottom tier much more often in the 3/5/7 format, as they as so powerful they can often influence the outcome of games when top tier. It sucks, but its not changing anytime soon as there has been no official response by WG about it. 

Enforcer1975 #4 Posted 04 July 2017 - 07:37 PM

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Yeah and instead of boycotting the game they just keep playing solo instead which makes WG think they did a good move.
Did anyone try playing 2 man toons instead and write down the MM spread?

NiemandXL #5 Posted 04 July 2017 - 08:13 PM

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Wargaming totally knows what they are doing! I mean everyone knows that punishing people for playing with their friends makes an MMO successful!

Vokurkar #6 Posted 04 July 2017 - 08:14 PM

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View PostAvalancheZ257, on 04 July 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

 

It was pointed out in the patch notes that platoons would be bottom tier much more often in the 3/5/7 format, as they as so powerful they can often influence the outcome of games when top tier. It sucks, but its not changing anytime soon as there has been no official response by WG about it. 

 

From 9.18 patch notes:

 

Specific features of the new matchmaker:

  • Pattern-based matchmaker. The new matchmaker for Random Battles based on predetermined patterns. Pattern is a complex of team characteristics, including the number of vehicles at the top/middle/bottom of the team list, number of Platoons, number of light/medium/heavy tanks, SPGs, and tank destroyers. The teams are always created according to the following rule: number of vehicles at the bottom of the team list should exceed the number of vehicles at the top or middle of the team list. The priority pattern for three-tier battles is 3-5-7; the pattern for two-tier battles is 5-10. One-tier battles are allowed under conditions when other patterns are not possible.
  • Only same-tier Platoons are allowed.
  • The number of SPGs per team should not exceed three vehicles.
  • Enabled the limitation for usage of SPGs in Platoons. Selection of SPGs in the Platoon window is disabled. The limitation affects both Platoons that include only SPGs and Platoons that include other vehicle types.
  • The matchmaker considers the number of light tanks and tank destroyers.
  • The difference in the number of Platoons should not exceed one full Platoon (three players).
  • Preference of placing a player at the top/middle of the team list, if they have already played several battles at the bottom of the team list.
  • Improvements to the map selection mechanics that decreases the chance of playing on the same maps within a game session.

 

I dont see any about intentional platoons being bottom tier


Edited by Vokurkar, 04 July 2017 - 08:15 PM.


FluffyRedFox #7 Posted 04 July 2017 - 08:15 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 04 July 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

Did anyone try playing 2 man toons instead and write down the MM spread?

I don't have any statistics backing this up, but for me I didn't notice a difference between playing in a 2 man or 3 man platoon. I did once managed to get in the "3" in a 3-5-7 game in a 2 man platoon so I guess thats one advantage



Dr_ownape #8 Posted 05 July 2017 - 07:27 AM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 04 July 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

Yeah and instead of boycotting the game they just keep playing solo instead which makes WG think they did a good move.
Did anyone try playing 2 man toons instead and write down the MM spread?

I've started to look at the tons on both sides when I load into solo random.  I've NEVER seen a toon top unless it's a tier 10 game or single tier battle.

 

have a look when you load in (before the dynamic toons are created) and you can judge it yourself



iztok #9 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:00 AM

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> Being in Platoon = majority of games on bottom in +2 MM?

Yep. Some players did made notes. In platoons they were top tiers in significantly less than 10% of battles. :(



Aikl #10 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:09 AM

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Hardly surprising that the matchmaker has a hard time putting platoons in as top-tier. There are three top-tiers in a 3-5-7, and the three on top are (supposed to be) matched against the enemy, both in terms of class and solo/platoon.

 

Even though I find it annoying, and breaks with the "right to pwn" idea, it does provide less variability. Either the matchmaker has problems coping with the MM rules when it comes to platoons (which 'traditionally' didn't have any 'rules' about not being bottom-tier five times in a row), or it's to prevent total roflstomps by matching either class-uneven platoons or skill-uneven platoons ...like WG didn't set up for that in 3-5-7 anyway.



jabster #11 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:21 AM

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View PostAikl, on 05 July 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

Hardly surprising that the matchmaker has a hard time putting platoons in as top-tier. There are three top-tiers in a 3-5-7, and the three on top are (supposed to be) matched against the enemy, both in terms of class and solo/platoon.

 

Even though I find it annoying, and breaks with the "right to pwn" idea, it does provide less variability. Either the matchmaker has problems coping with the MM rules when it comes to platoons (which 'traditionally' didn't have any 'rules' about not being bottom-tier five times in a row), or it's to prevent total roflstomps by matching either class-uneven platoons or skill-uneven platoons ...like WG didn't set up for that in 3-5-7 anyway.

 

I suppose the interesting one is does the problem go away if the platoon only consists of non-matched tanks.

Aikl #12 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:34 AM

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The idea was mostly that platoons need to contain the same classes of vehicles.

 

I would guess that a majority of my T7/8 platoons are mixed classes, often doing doubles and trying not to pick the same "type" of tank as my platoonmates. Doesn't seem to do much. Guess it could be tested with a mass-launch of platoons at a single time, but I dare guess that some of the newer rules are what the matchmaker ignores first if it can lead to longer queue times. Currently it's even breaking the 'matched classes as top tier' rule rather frequently - I can guess that a reason for that is trying to give players a top-tier game once in a while.

 

(Not that I think I deserve, or need, to be clubbing Tigers in my VK100.01P all day long, but being delegated to a support tank role every game isn't that fun. Well, the VK with APCR is practically a T9 heavy anyway.)



jabster #13 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:38 AM

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View PostAikl, on 05 July 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

The idea was mostly that platoons need to contain the same classes of vehicles.

 

I would guess that a majority of my T7/8 platoons are mixed classes, often doing doubles and trying not to pick the same "type" of tank as my platoonmates. Doesn't seem to do much. Guess it could be tested with a mass-launch of platoons at a single time, but I dare guess that some of the newer rules are what the matchmaker ignores first if it can lead to longer queue times. Currently it's even breaking the 'matched classes as top tier' rule rather frequently - I can guess that a reason for that is trying to give players a top-tier game once in a while.

 

(Not that I think I deserve, or need, to be clubbing Tigers in my VK100.01P all day long, but being delegated to a support tank role every game isn't that fun. Well, the VK with APCR is practically a T9 heavy anyway.)

 

As far as I know there is no match classes for top tiers rule besides that arty, LTs and TDs are matched regardless.

Aikl #14 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:51 AM

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Sorry, my mistake. Even less reason for platoons not being top-tier (once in a while) then.

 

Would be interesting to get some numbers from WG on this topic. Doubt it's meant to be intentional, but maybe it's a side-effect of how the matchmaker is set up. 

 

(Still, it can be a lot of fun not being top-tier in a platoon, seeing as the three on top likely can't stick together on most maps.)



jabster #15 Posted 05 July 2017 - 10:17 AM

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View PostAikl, on 05 July 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

Sorry, my mistake. Even less reason for platoons not being top-tier (once in a while) then.

 

Would be interesting to get some numbers from WG on this topic. Doubt it's meant to be intentional, but maybe it's a side-effect of how the matchmaker is set up. 

 

(Still, it can be a lot of fun not being top-tier in a platoon, seeing as the three on top likely can't stick together on most maps.)

 

Even without the restriction you can see how the MM will have more trouble making them top tier as even if you only have non-matched classes you're being indirectly matched with non-matched classes.

 

It could be deliberate but my guess is it's just a by product of the MM algorithm.



Vokurkar #16 Posted 05 July 2017 - 11:02 AM

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View PostAikl, on 05 July 2017 - 08:09 AM, said:

Hardly surprising that the matchmaker has a hard time putting platoons in as top-tier. There are three top-tiers in a 3-5-7, and the three on top are (supposed to be) matched against the enemy, both in terms of class and solo/platoon.

 

Even though I find it annoying, and breaks with the "right to pwn" idea, it does provide less variability. Either the matchmaker has problems coping with the MM rules when it comes to platoons (which 'traditionally' didn't have any 'rules' about not being bottom-tier five times in a row), or it's to prevent total roflstomps by matching either class-uneven platoons or skill-uneven platoons ...like WG didn't set up for that in 3-5-7 anyway.

 

I get it is hard to put em in 3-5-7 and in that scenario it is almost unfair... it happened to me few times so far and each game was either crucial contribution or very close to that... But the 5-10 or all tanks same tier, specially at lower~mid tiers would be very appreciated. We were playing last night T6 and when exped up, started with T7... We had to literally disband our platoon, cos it was almost impossible to some decent games in T9 exlusively. In the 3hrs of platooning we were in +2 80% of the time... 

 

The platoons seemed to work fine when the MM arrived 1st time in 9.18, but since the "repair" of crashing servers (which i think was just simplifying the algorithm) and fix of "single platoon" bug it seems whenever you queue in platoon, you are destined to be fked by +2 tiers vehiles... on the bright side, it is maybe the only way how u can at least get a chance to complete missions "kill 2 tanks +2 tier"... 



thiextar #17 Posted 05 July 2017 - 11:30 AM

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Wargaming needs to fix this, cause this is seriously killing the game for me even more than any broken balance, weakspot removal, gold spam, heck even arty. Ive always played this game with friends, but nowadays when we dont play tier 9 and 10, we just sit in the same discord channel while we all play our own matches, this is completely ridiculous and quickly killing the fun part of the game for me.

RaxipIx #18 Posted 05 July 2017 - 12:04 PM

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Since the patch, i was only once in a 3-5-7 top tier game as tier 8 3 man toon.

Balc0ra #19 Posted 05 July 2017 - 12:14 PM

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View PostAvalancheZ257, on 04 July 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

 

It was pointed out in the patch notes that platoons would be bottom tier much more often in the 3/5/7 format, as they as so powerful they can often influence the outcome of games when top tier. It sucks, but its not changing anytime soon as there has been no official response by WG about it. 

 

Mostly because of all the complaints on the forums about one team having top tier platoons, and your team having bottom tier platoons. So platoons are now more even on tiers to vs just randomly tossed out. Thus more will get pulled in +2 games on top of what you said. So on some tiers, it will be worse then on others. Tier 6 and 8 seems to be the two worst to play in atm if you don't want +2 games as a platoon.



blsbill #20 Posted 05 July 2017 - 01:51 PM

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Platoons are dead.Except if you play tier 10 only. 60% of the battles you will play with 2 tier up.30% with 1 tier up and there is 10% to play top tier.If u play top tier its almost certain that all the team will have the same tier than you.So lets say if you play a platoon of 3 tier 8 meds you will face tier 6 maybe once in 120 games,tier 7 every 50 games. Its even worse if you form a platoon of tier 7 tanks with premium MM. I played 80 games with 2 other people.we had 2 x E25 and one T23E3 and we NEVER played top tier.Which is something we paid for(or rewarded for).

WG has lost it.Totally lost it.They used to encourage platoon play.With missions,extra XP and stuff like that.But now they decided to punish platoons.

I play only tier 10 platoons or sometimes tier 9 lights.

GG WG WP






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