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Why not temporarily upgrading lower tier tanks in higher tier battles?


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japtank #1 Posted 04 July 2017 - 11:39 PM

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I remember another PvP game where lower level players had their stats increased when fighting higher level players, it was working ok.

If the new matchmaking is here to stay (and I think it is), improving the stats of lower tier tanks would improve the gaming experience of those like me who are not precisely excited to face a Mauss in a T32.

I don't know what stats could be improved, hit points, rate of fire, penetration, whatever, it's rather irrelevant, and it doesn't even matter if those stats would be improved to match the highest tier tanks stats, it's the principle I'd like us to talk about here.

 

Of course, a global overhaul would be better to diminish the huge gaps between tiers, but I think that would prove impossible, so why not a temporary balancing?



Isharial #2 Posted 04 July 2017 - 11:48 PM

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View Postjaptank, on 04 July 2017 - 11:39 PM, said:

I remember another PvP game where lower level players had their stats increased when fighting higher level players, it was working ok.

If the new matchmaking is here to stay (and I think it is), improving the stats of lower tier tanks would improve the gaming experience of those like me who are not precisely excited to face a Mauss in a T32.

I don't know what stats could be improved, hit points, rate of fire, penetration, whatever, it's rather irrelevant, and it doesn't even matter if those stats would be improved to match the highest tier tanks stats, it's the principle I'd like us to talk about here.

 

Of course, a global overhaul would be better to diminish the huge gaps between tiers, but I think that would prove impossible, so why not a temporary balancing?

 

now, this idea wont work in wot

yes it works in other games, destiny being one of them, in which, in particular modes, level means nothing, and even the lowliest noob is equivalent to the higher level players, HOWEVER that game has respawns, abilities etc.. wot does not, so having your T32 work at the equivalent level of an E5 is not going to work well

it also competely removes any point going for higher tier tanks, why buy an E5 in that instance, when T32 is levelled up to be equal to E5 whenever you need it?


 

idea broken, there's no logical way this can work in wot


 

global overhaul is the ONLY way forward, and that's never going to happen



japtank #3 Posted 04 July 2017 - 11:59 PM

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View PostIsharial, on 04 July 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

 

it also competely removes any point going for higher tier tanks, why buy an E5 in that instance, when T32 is levelled up to be equal to E5 whenever you need it?

 

I said it doesn't matter whether the lower tier stats are upped to match the highest tiers or not, so it's not about a T32 becoming an E5, but rather about a T32 having more hitpoints, better pen, better RoF or better anything else so it doesn't feel useless against same class opponents.

 

This thread is not about discussing how much stats should be increased but about whether they should be increased or not.



CmdPrompt #4 Posted 05 July 2017 - 12:09 AM

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View Postjaptank, on 05 July 2017 - 12:59 AM, said:

 

I said it doesn't matter whether the lower tier stats are upped to match the highest tiers or not, so it's not about a T32 becoming an E5, but rather about a T32 having more hitpoints, better pen, better RoF or better anything else so it doesn't feel useless against same class opponents.

 

This thread is not about discussing how much stats should be increased but about whether they should be increased or not.

 

so maus...

 

i would like my maus to donate it's removed hp to the t32 xD


Edited by CmdPrompt, 05 July 2017 - 12:10 AM.


Neyaru #5 Posted 05 July 2017 - 12:10 AM

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View Postjaptank, on 04 July 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

to diminish the huge gaps between tiers, but I think that would prove impossible, so why not a temporary balancing?

 

You are addressing a topic that should be more discussed.

 

The balance of tanks stats is disastrous. I consider it similar to Intel tick-tock.

 

Tier 6 is an improved tier 5. Tier 5 have a chance against its tier 6 counterpart.
Tier 8 is an improved tier 7. Tier 7 have a chance against its tier 8 counterpart.
Tier 10 is an improved tier 9. Tier 9 have a chance against its tier 10 counterpart.

 

Tier 6 and 8 for me are the worst to play, because they have very much weaker stats compared to a higher tier tank of the same line, so being bottom tier is much more painful for them. 

 

T29 vs T32 okay, but M6 vs T29? No f*cking way.
O-Ni vs O-Ho fine / O-I vs O-Ni? RIP O-I
KV-3 vs KV-4 fine / T-150 vs KV-3? RIP T-150

And the list goes on.

 

Compare the stats of these tier 7/8 tanks, you will see that they are very similar (damage, HP).

 

M6 to T29 = +380 HP, +80 damage per shot, +38mm penetration

T29 to T32 = +300 HP, but same damage per shot and penetration

 

T-150 to KV-3 = +520 HP, +90 damage per shot

KV-3 to KV-4 = +300 HP, same damage per shot

 

O-I to O-Ni = +600 HP

O-Ni to O-Ho = +150 HP, same damage per shot

O-Ho to Type 4 Heavy = +350 HP, but almost double the damage per shot

 

And the next is the most funny...

 

Churchill I to Churchill VII = +260 HP, +3mm penetration and +5 damage per shot

Churchill VII to Black Prince = +490 HP, almost same damage but +23mm penetration (only 4mm less than KV-3/IS/IS-2/SU-152)


Edited by Neyaru, 05 July 2017 - 12:35 AM.


Geno1isme #6 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:44 AM

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Upscaling is a horrible idea and would actually make balancing even worse.

You don't even need to check numbers for that, just consider lines where tanks at different tiers use the same gun, e.g. T29 and T32. If you upscale damage or penetration, suddenly the T29 would have a better gun at T8 than the T32. Or the UDES/ISU gun upscaled to T10, lets not even talk about arty or derp guns.

 

The only stat that might be usable for upscaling is HP, and even that is questionable.

 

Upscaling can only work if the game is designed around that idea. I've seen upscaling in far less complex games than WoT where it was added as an afterthought, and it never really worked.



Kozzy #7 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:50 AM

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You guys are kind of missing the point of the tier progression.  WG wants players to feel a bit inadequate when playing as the bottom tier, this makes players want to be the higher tier.  So they grind out more tanks, going up the tiers but still suffering the same problem and so it goes on until tiers 9 and 10.  

 

At this point most people cannot run the tanks profitably and so have to grind lower tiers to make money or pay for premium time/premium tanks.  This means free 2 play players keep the lower tiers populated for the pay 2 play players and the pay to play players pump money into the game.

 

What some of you are suggesting goes against WG's business model and is unlikely to be considered.



Spurtung #8 Posted 05 July 2017 - 09:57 AM

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View Postjaptank, on 05 July 2017 - 12:59 AM, said:

 

it's not about a T32 becoming an E5, but rather about a T32 having more hitpoints, better pen, better RoF or better anything else so it doesn't feel useless against same class opponents.

That's one of the most widespread fallacies in this game, that you're supposed to face higher tier, same class opponents head on and therefore it's unfair, for example, to play a T32 against a Maus. Newsflash: that's not your role.



Troubledove #9 Posted 05 July 2017 - 10:00 AM

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+10% more HP on +1 tier games and +20% HP on +2 tier games would not break anything.



Geno1isme #10 Posted 05 July 2017 - 11:08 AM

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View PostTroubledove, on 05 July 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:

+10% more HP on +1 tier games and +20% HP on +2 tier games would not break anything.

 

It also wouldn't solve anything, just make the game more complicated and increase balancing gaps between classes and individual tanks. Or who do you think benefits more from +20% HP:

- Defender / IS-3 / O-Ho / Patriot

- HWK-12 / LTG / Kanonenjagdpanzer

 

Better to not even bother with upscaling at all. Rather they should fix their Crap-MM to balance armor and firepower between teams.



Enforcer1975 #11 Posted 05 July 2017 - 11:16 AM

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View PostTroubledove, on 05 July 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

+10% more HP on +1 tier games and +20% HP on +2 tier games would not break anything.

Or just reduce the hitpoint gap between tiers and adjust the dpm. 



lord_chipmonk #12 Posted 05 July 2017 - 01:16 PM

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Sorry, I'm probably being thick, but I don't understand the purpose of the OP's suggestion. 

Enforcer1975 #13 Posted 05 July 2017 - 01:53 PM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 05 July 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Sorry, I'm probably being thick, but I don't understand the purpose of the OP's suggestion. 

He basically wants tanks to have a buff when they are in a -1 -2 MM to "give them a fighting chance". 



lord_chipmonk #14 Posted 05 July 2017 - 02:01 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 05 July 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

He basically wants tanks to have a buff when they are in a -1 -2 MM to "give them a fighting chance". 

 

Right, gotcha, thanks for that.

 

Why though?

 

If the problem is that the OP thinks the gap between bottom and top tier tanks is too great, then this would be a balancing issue and the proper way to address it would be to rebalance the tanks rather than to apply a rather dodgy bodge. 



Balc0ra #15 Posted 05 July 2017 - 02:14 PM

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View Postjaptank, on 04 July 2017 - 11:59 PM, said:

 

I said it doesn't matter whether the lower tier stats are upped to match the highest tiers or not, so it's not about a T32 becoming an E5, but rather about a T32 having more hitpoints, better pen, better RoF or better anything else so it doesn't feel useless against same class opponents.

 

This thread is not about discussing how much stats should be increased but about whether they should be increased or not.

 

Most tanks are balanced for fighting higher tier targets, not for top tier or lower. As most have either unhistorical guns, like the Tiger. Or unhistorical pen... to help out. Heck the VK 36.01 as a Medium with the short 88 did see tier X before. And less complained about that then the +2 now, after they fixed it so you see max 3 of them.

 

And tbh, this won't work to well here as pointed out. Then why do tanks have HP if they are gonna be adjusted? Why do we have pen if it's gonna change depending on what you fight?  This game now has a 3-5-7 system now. Not a 10-2-3 or any random order like before. So why buff it for 3 tanks? It just means that the other targets you fight will be more stupid. Like a T32 facing a Tiger II before he gets to the E5, or a Cromwell facing a KV-85 or AT-7 before he has to fight the IS-3. More HP, more pen. So that 122mm gun it might have is less of a risk for the Cromwell. As he can afford to trade with the extra HP. Nor does he need to manually aim for weaker spots. As his pen buff for the +2 game just means he can auto aim circle it and auto pen it each time. It might help for +2 targets. But makes equal tier and +1 fights more pointless and stupid. As the risk equal reward element will go away. One aspect I've always liked about this game.

 

Star Wars the Old republic had this to. Making gear at the level cap pointless. As any one with a lvl 30 to come and play and get "matched" up vs the gear and stats the others had at lvl 60, that they worked hard for. You would be more rewarded by not leveling up in PVP vs grinding and getting the best stuff.... at least in the early days and when I left it it was like that.






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