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WN8 vs win rate


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Nargar0th #1 Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:24 PM

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Hello,

 

I wanted to hear your opinion on some of the things that are confusing me in this game lately.

First of all, I'm a new old player if that makes sense. I started playing in 2011, played for 2 years or so and left the game. I came back around 3 months ago, and I have noticed that a lot of stuff changed.

I have to say that the last time I played (in 2011) I was much worse player than I am now, I am noticing that based on the win rate and WN8 on the tanks I used to play a lot to farm credits with (tier 5-6) before I bought the premium tank.

Another thing I have noticed now, which wasn't that important (or did not exist) before is the WN8 rating.

I downloaded XVM mod pack and everything and I have noticed that I'm quite average player, then I thought why not try to improve my WN8 a bit. After that I started paying more attention to the game, equipping every tank I play, from time to time looking at famous streamers playing the tank I play - until then I just played for fun - and it slowly started rising - but the thing is, my W/R started dropping proportionally.

 

I am not sure why is this happening, there's no logical explanation, but you can look at it yourself : 

 

Posted Image


You can notice that when I had the biggest improvement of WN8 (13 June - 03 July) that's when my win rate dropped the most.

 

There's another thing that I do not understand. When I play my IS-4 I feel that I'm contributing the most to the team - very often I'm defending one flank against multiple enemies effectively, basically stopping the advance that would win the game for the enemy team, I've got the feeling that I'm the only reason the game is won in the end. But my stats in the IS-4 are abysmal, eventually I sold it because I needed the credits to buy T30. I'm good with IS-4, I'm good at what IS-4 is good at, but whatever I do in the game, playing the IS-4 is ruining my stats. 

 

Posted Image


What is your opinion on all of this ? Do you think the WN8 is not a good player skill rating system ? Looking forward to your answers, and sorry for the long post !



NUKLEAR_SLUG #2 Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:39 PM

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If you want good WN8 then sit at the back and farm damage while your team loses around you. I'll let you figure out how that affects your winrate.

lonigus #3 Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:42 PM

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Obviously WN8 is not a good rating system. Never was and never will be. Two main reasons are:

 

- some random dude(s) deciding on the rating formula 

- still no assisted damage made available in the WoT API. This leads to them compensating the missing assistance damage on scouts by increasing the role of kills and damage done + spots.

 

WG has the tools to make a decent OFFICIAL rating system using the WN8/9 formula as base and implement all the other "hidden" stats into it (assisted damage). And yes the PR rating from WG is even worse the XVM.

 

I was averaging 3500 ish WN8, but my WR is going down even tho I never changed my gameplay.


Edited by lonigus, 10 July 2017 - 01:44 PM.


BicycleOfDeath #4 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:00 PM

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Well wn8 is far from perfect of course, but it is at least a rough indicator of how you're doing. I was in a similar situation to you a few thousand games back, my win rate was pretty bad. A few things i changed were: don't grind stock tanks, play mostly tanks you're good in, get early damage and spots, take key map positions, and don't go to flanks yourself to "defend against multiple enemies". You don't need to be some kind of "Flank Rambo". Go to the flank you can win. Then push through it, or go back and start defending.

 

I recommend watching Zeven on youtube, he has very good replay reviews that are all about how to win in different tanks.

 

this is of course only "expert" advice from average joe player, but maybe helpful since we're probably similar in skill level.



Jigabachi #5 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:15 PM

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Why would you use something like WN8 when you can get way more information from your FULL stats?



0gata #6 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:26 PM

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first of WN8 is used by imbecls and arty and by no one else(if someone argue hes one of those 2)

wanna see whos good .. look at his PR and WR .. and only in tier 10 games ..anything else does not matter at all

 

for example u with barely 6k PR and 49% win rate in is-4 with average dmg of 1.7 k (which is worse then mine t6-7 tanks) u cant be good .. and btw 50% WR = AFK

u having a 49% WR in it means u do play against your team



kripton69 #7 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:27 PM

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WN8 is far from perfect but it's still a fairly good general indicator. I think the disparity in your stats is a result of having focused more on damage regardless of its quality. If you have 0.60-0.75 spots per game with tanks like T29, IS-4 and M6 the chances are you're not fighting for the map control and getting much of the all-important early damage and most of your damage is simply "farmed", low risk damage.

 

If you want to win games you need to take your IS-4 into the important areas and try to help your team get an early advantage. 0.76 spots per game with a super heavy that should be winning ground for the team is very bad. For reference I have 1.98 spots per game with my IS-4 and this pretty much tells that you're playing the tank too much to its strengths(which is commonly given bad advice) instead of playing the right areas. Playing the right areas even if you have to leave your tank's comfort zone is the way to win games. This is why the beach boys of Overlord always have poor win rates.



Jigabachi #8 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:45 PM

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View Postkripton69, on 10 July 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:

WN8 is far from perfect but it's still a fairly good general indicator. 

That's the whole problem - it's not.

It's meant to be a standalone "general indicator" like you call it, but WN8 alone is completely useless.



0gata #9 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:47 PM

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View Postkripton69, on 10 July 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

WN8 is far from perfect but it's still a fairly good general indicator. I think the disparity in your stats is a result of having focused more on damage regardless of its quality. If you have 0.60-0.75 spots per game with tanks like T29, IS-4 and M6 the chances are you're not fighting for the map control and getting much of the all-important early damage and most of your damage is simply "farmed", low risk damage.

 

If you want to win games you need to take your IS-4 into the important areas and try to help your team get an early advantage. 0.76 spots per game with a super heavy that should be winning ground for the team is very bad. For reference I have 1.98 spots per game with my IS-4 and this pretty much tells that you're playing the tank too much to its strengths(which is commonly given bad advice) instead of playing the right areas. Playing the right areas even if you have to leave your tank's comfort zone is the way to win games. This is why the beach boys of Overlord always have poor win rates.

 

now u with bad advice's.. and measurements ...in WOT wins one who have superior position..that being said in WOT every map is with 3 flanks  .. on most maps 2 flanks are useless or inferior ..thats why with an IS 4 u go on smart flank together with mediums and light tanks(if thats smart flank) .. those mediums and lights are encouraged by your presence there and they do lead tank column and they pick all spots ..so he me or anyone else in slow tank such as an is 4 we dont get spots ..that does not mean we play passive it just means its not his job in an is4 or maus to pick spots ..his job is to deal DMG and aggro enemy fire 

that's why i previously said important is WR .. average recent DMG in his t10 tanks all other tiers aren't important if u looking at someone if hes good or not ...if he plays T10 scouts .. i will check his assisted DMG and his Spots but why on earth would i check assisted dmg to an maus or E100 ?!?!?!?

u all got so buried with that Wn8 where number of spots increases Wn8 ... sorry but i play my HTS with vents i dont use  Binos nor food to increase my  view range ...for spotting there are other classes responsible for  doing dmg and tanking there are other classes responsible and so on


Edited by 0gata, 10 July 2017 - 02:48 PM.


qpranger #10 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:49 PM

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Some like to diss WN8, and yet they always avoid discussing the actual suspicious issue of WR decreasing despite WN8 increasing. So do you think high WN8 is a sign of a poor player, so his WR decreases as a logical consequence? :) 

Nargar0th #11 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

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Thank you for all your answers.

I kinda agree with Ogata, it's hard to have spots with sluggish super heavy.

 

There's one more thing  that I have noticed lately, I don't know if you will agree with me. 

Majority of the best players (talking about popular youtube streamers) and in general, when you see the good player in game - they play majority of their games in medium tanks. 

Do you think that while playing a medium tank you have the bigger impact on the game ? Or if talking about WN8 it is easier to pump it up ? Or is this just a coincidence?

qpranger : I believe I became a worse team player by slightly focusing on the WN8 and that is resulting in a w/r decrease, in some extent I agree with you.


Edited by Nargar0th, 10 July 2017 - 02:55 PM.


Long_Range_Sniper #12 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:53 PM

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When do you see people accused of statpadding their winrate?

brumbarr #13 Posted 10 July 2017 - 02:56 PM

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View PostNargar0th, on 10 July 2017 - 02:53 PM, said:

Thank you for all your answers.

I kinda agree with Ogata, it's hard to have spots with sluggish super heavy.

 

There's one more thing  that I have noticed lately, I don't know if you will agree with me. 

Majority of the best players (talking about popular youtube streamers) and in general, when you see the good player in game - they play majority of their games in medium tanks. 

Do you think that while playing a medium tank you have the bigger impact on the game ? Or if talking about WN8 it is easier to pump it up ? Or is this just a coincidence?

qpranger : I believe I became a worse team player by slightly focusing on the WN8 and that is resulting in a w/r decrease, in some extent I agree with you.

Meds used to have a bigger impact for very good players, since they can flex around the map. But these days heavys win more, however, they are less fun and frustrating due to low speed.

 

Oh, and btw, its not hard to have spots with superheavys, since you are the one leading the push, you will spot the ones shooting at you.  Spotting ratio below 1 is a sign of a very passive player


Edited by brumbarr, 10 July 2017 - 02:57 PM.


Strappster #14 Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:00 PM

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View Post0gata, on 10 July 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

first of WN8 is used by imbecls and arty and by no one else(if someone argue hes one of those 2)

 

If someone makes that claim, it's proof that they are sexually attracted to farm animals.



0gata #15 Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:01 PM

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View PostNargar0th, on 10 July 2017 - 01:53 PM, said:

There's one more thing  that I have noticed lately, I don't know if you will agree with me. 

Majority of the best players (talking about popular youtube streamers) and in general, when you see the good player in game - they play majority of their games in medium tanks. 

Do you think that while playing a medium tank you have the bigger impact on the game ? Or if talking about WN8 it is easier to pump it up ? Or is this just a coincidence?

qpranger : I believe I became a worse team player by slightly focusing on the WN8 and that is resulting in a w/r decrease, in some extent I agree with you.

 

check my Win rate and tanks played

http://www.wotinfo.n...12773&server=EU

look at recent few K games those are with mostly HTS older ones are mixed (and btw tank class does not affect Win rate if u play that class properly every class is powerful and every class affect's outcome the same )

about Streamers  just Straik from RU server is good ..rest are ok or comedy relief characters in WOT

 

ah btw i do play solo .. cant rember when last time platooned (and yet i do get 60-80% win rate depends of the tanks and how lucky my day was)


Edited by 0gata, 10 July 2017 - 03:06 PM.


SenpaiErick #16 Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:06 PM

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You can always trade WN8 for WR, and the opposite works as well (let's say you cap a lot instead of doing damage/kills). The trick is to have both high WN8  AND high WR%.

kripton69 #17 Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:07 PM

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View Post0gata, on 10 July 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

 

now u with bad advice's.. and measurements ...in WOT wins one who have superior position..that being said in WOT every map is with 3 flanks  .. on most maps 2 flanks are useless or inferior ..thats why with an IS 4 u go on smart flank together with mediums and light tanks(if thats smart flank) .. those mediums and lights are encouraged by your presence there and they do lead tank column and they pick all spots ..so he me or anyone else in slow tank such as an is 4 we dont get spots ..that does not mean we play passive it just means its not his job in an is4 or maus to pick spots ..his job is to deal DMG and aggro enemy fire 

that's why i previously said important is WR .. average recent DMG in his t10 tanks all other tiers aren't important if u looking at someone if hes good or not ...if he plays T10 scouts .. i will check his assisted DMG and his Spots but why on earth would i check assisted dmg to an maus or E100 ?!?!?!?

u all got so buried with that Wn8 where number of spots increases Wn8 ... sorry but i play my HTS with vents i dont use  Binos nor food to increase my  view range ...for spotting there are other classes responsible for  doing dmg and tanking there are other classes responsible and so on

 

And where exactly did I say that the IS-4 needs to go to a heavy flank just because it's heavy? Being in the frontline doesn't mean going to the 1-2 lines of Steppes or the city of Live Oaks "cuz im heavy". The whole point of my post is exactly that winning the important positions matters rather than going to the area where your tank is theoretically at its strongest. Hence the beach example. It's a very super heavy friendly area and in theory "plays to the strengths" of such tanks but because it's an insignificant area to win, the players going there usually have poor win rates. I don't know why you're trying to twist it. I manage 1.98 spots per game with my IS-4 although it's a slow tank. Being slow doesn't mean you can't get spots as long as you have view range and/or you don't play too passively. For a heavy tank having a good number of spots usually means you drag yourself into early action which is a good thing because early damage and early map control are the things that win games.

 

The number of spots barely has any impact on your WN8. If anything it has a negative impact on your WN8 because it is a sign that you're making aggressive moves(like a tier X super heavy should) and running the risk of losing health instead of humping a useless corner in a perfectly angled sidescraping position and waiting for the enemies to run into his gun. High number of spots doesn't necessarily mean a player is good but a low number of spots is a good starting point in situations like this when the OP is dealing a fair amount of damage but failing to win games.


Edited by kripton69, 10 July 2017 - 03:11 PM.


AdzTownstrike #18 Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:11 PM

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View PostSenpaiErick, on 10 July 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

You can always trade WN8 for WR, and the opposite works as well (let's say you cap a lot instead of doing damage/kills). The trick is to have both high WN8  AND high WR%.

 

What do you class as high wr? 

jabster #19 Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:14 PM

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View PostAdzTownstrike, on 10 July 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

 

What do you class as high wr? 

 

A one vs. one always sorts out the boys from the men I believe.



AdzTownstrike #20 Posted 10 July 2017 - 03:15 PM

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View Postjabster, on 10 July 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

 

A one vs. one always sorts out the boys from the men I believe.

 

1v1s are the worst thing in the history of all time.




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