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time for yet another italian tech tree

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CamperKaempfer #1 Posted 10 July 2017 - 10:53 PM

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INTRODUCTION

 

Fiat 2000 Italian Army tank front view taken from a low angle which inhances the height of the tank

 

italian commander quotes:

 

riempiamoli di pizzoccheri finché non vomitano! = let's get this show on the road / time to roll out

 

se succede ancora vi beccate la pizza con l'ananas. = we're done for! everyone get out!

 

i know more than one italian tech trees have been proposed, but i'm not content with any so i've decided to start my own.

 

since my first-hand sources are not as good as those other people in teh forums seem to have (such as vollketten (by the way, is that guy still around?)), this thread will focus on the gameplay rather than historical information. i aim to create the most comprehensive italian tech-tree so far. i will list the issues that are inherent to the development of italian tech-tree and possible solutions to them.

 

comments and thoughts of any kind are welcome. even though i've done quite some research i still encouter new vehicles from time to time, so you're more than welcome to let me know about vehicles that i haven't mentioned. i'll be very greatful for every new vehicles that you get me to learn about. also feel free to correct me if you think i'm wrong about how certain tanks should be introduced in the game.

 

and by the way, i speak fluent italian and can read italian books and original documents. if you happen to have any matierial in italian i'd be happy to read it and translate it for you. i can do the same wih german and spanish, and even if it's not about italian tanks, i'm still glad to help.

 


 

HIGHER TIERS PROBLEM AND THE OF-40

 

all of us who're interested in italian tanks know about the hiatus in tank development in italy during most of the cold war, when the country that gave us the most famous and epensive luxury cars in the world and has been, even during the cold war, quite an important arms developer and exporter, never bothered to dedicate some of that apparent mechanical prowess to the development of tanks and decided to rely on USA and later German imports. had they put a ferrari engine into a safe, we'd be bound to get at least a tier 6, right?

 

this issue is also faced by all german lines in the game, except the two ending with the rheinmetall panzerwagen and the leopard, but fortunately, late-war german heavy tanks are strong enough to reach tier ten without the need of newer, post-war developments. the same cannot be said for the italian ones, which were always worse off than nearly all contemporary tanks throughout all WWII.

 

there is modern italian armour, the only problem is that it's too modern, more modern than any tank that has made its way into the game yet,

 

so, where exactly does wargaming draw the line? how modern can a tank be while still be able to be part of the game? it seems like any vehicles up to the second generation of so-called main battle tanks will do.

 

so. what defines a second generation MBT?  probably composite and reactive. armour, most importantly. also, the engines of such tanks also start to get more powerful than those munted by WWII superheavies, and since the strength of a tank, how much armour and armament it can mount, is untimately determined (mostly) by its engine power, until it start "cheating" by using lighter or more effective composite armour, this can also be considered as a place where to draw the line.

 

another thing, restricted to medium tanks, may be the caliber of the gun, which isn't supposed to get higher than the 105mm of the british royal ordinance L7. for example wargamig has decided to give the T-62 the 100mm gun originally planned for it insead of the 115 mm it then ended up having, even though the latter was chosen because it allowed for shorter ammunition which were easier to handle in the small turret, and not because its performance was any better.

 

so are there italian tanks that don't defy these limitations? there's the OF-40 and its developments such as the palmaria SPG. while both are completely within the technological boundaries that WG seem to enforce, there are two problems with them:

the first problem came later than comparable foreign designs, being designed in 1977, when more modern tanks were already in development (including the italian C-1 ariete). secondly, it's very similar to the leopard 1 and has the exact same engine (and gun, though that's less relevant since the british L7 gun was very common im many designs of the time).

 

developed 1977, it wouldn't be significantly more modern than the STB-1 and, most importantly, it has no composite armour, which sems to be wargaming's requirement for acceptance in the game.

 

the second problem was that the OF-40 was derived form the leopard 1 and probably did not differ much from it, unfortunately this is as italian as we can get after 1943, at least concerning so it might not give the italian tech-line the unique taste that the other nations have.

 

still, with the newer turret dsigned to house the 120 rheinmetall gun (but without the gun itself), and/or the autoloading turret designed by oto-melara, it's an elegant enough completion to a line that could hopefully be worthwhile.

 


SECOND PROBLEM: STOCK GRIND / MODULE UPGRADE

 

most italian tanks weren't deemed successful enough to justify receiving upgrades without becoming wholly new models. most models were only produced by the tens or hundreds, before being phased out. this would privent most tanks from having separate stock and top configuations.

 

for some reason the italians didn't turn to readily available aircraft engines for their tanks (with the exception of the fiat 2000), despite the fact that their aereonautic industry was much more prolificient than their automobile and tank industry, which was also much less developed than those of other european powers. since the development of a new engine from scratch took longer than the rest of the tank combined, it was rare that a new engine would be developed without accompanying it with a whole new tank.

 

ironically, one of the few tanks that had both an engine and a suspesion upgrade (as well as a new gun), was the FIAT 2000, but since i plan to place it as a tier 1, those two upgrades couldn't be exploited, unless wargaming decided to change that and make tier 1's upgradable, or make an exception out of the FIAT 3000.

 

some of the stock-grind problem can be fixed by giving tanks modules of lower tier conterparts as a stock configuration. i suspect it's already the case in the game even in instances when it was not in ther real-life counterparts. plus many suspesion upgrades have vague names such as "verbessert" (=improved) or verstarkt (=improved) which sound like they're made up.

 

to add some variety we could consider that not all italian anti-tank guns were mounted on tanks. some tanks could be given fictional configurations with guns that they never actually carried, while maintaining some realism by only adding contemporary italain guns. it's already been done in the game a lot. kind of like the 6-pounder on the vickers medium MK1, the certurion turret on the caernarvon and the autoloader on the E-100 chassis of the defunct waffentraeger auf E-100).

 

nonetheless the fictional arrangements i will suggest are rare and unimportant and mostly there to fill the place of stock guns (a new tank with a new gun will have to research the new gun while using a stock gun it was never equipped with in reality)..

 

 


THIRD PROBLEM: ITALIAN TANKS ARE WEAK

 

WWII italian tanks are weaker than the foreign designs of the time. they were always obsolete at the time of their introduction compared to most foreign contemporaries, often to a dramatic degree.

 

fortunately for us much of what rendered italian tanks so bad was the bad quality of the armour. had the italians used welding instead of riveting their tanks would have been lighter while maintaining the same effective armour. also the armour plates lacked proper heat treating and important binding elements such as nichel and hence were brlittle to the point that non-penetrating hits could shatter them or cause parts to flake off. traces of impurities sulphur in the alloys would exacerbate this problem

 

of course all this won't matter in the game since we can assume that in the game a certain thickness of italian armour would be just as good asthe same thickness of armour in any other nation's tank, even though it wasn't the case in reality. this way italian tanks won't be that bad in the game as they were in reality. wargaming won't make the armour weaker based on all the suphur and lack of heat treating and nichel, right?

 

since riveted armour plates were heavier than while maintaining the same effectiveness as welded ones, this could be accounted for to justify some leniency toward our italain tanks and justify some buffs to either their armour without changing the weight, or mobility. by reducing the weight without changing the armour effectiveness. i think the first option would be better because it's arguable the one the italians would have gone for had they had the proper means (but this is little more than just a hunch) and becuase it would not change the weight of the vehicles, and hence it wouldn't distance them from their foreign rivals (and allies).

 

after all the game is 1) not always historically accuate, and 2) features tanks that existed, in part or completely, only in blueprints or proposals, and proposals to finally give italian tanks welded armour were indeed made.

 

furthermore. the armour in many low tier vehicles is exaggerated. for example both the British and the American M2 have 38mm of frontal armour, while in reality they only had 25. i don't see why italian tanks couldn't be boosted the same way. even though most of the times it would suffice to "have them rebuilt" with better industrial tools, while basing them on unchanged and historical blueprints.

 

in regard to the guns, according to the little research that ive made, the game is often inaccurate and some lower tier tanks are upgunned with real contemporary guns of the respective nations, but which they never actually mounted in reality,

 

the obsolescence thing is partly not a problem since obsolete tanks can simply be huddled in lower tiers, no matter how late they entered service. of course this would leave an empty gap in the higher tiers. which is one of the two reasons why it's difficult to find candidates for high tiers.

 

another way to even the odds for italian tanks drivers could be through soft stats, such as aiming time and dispersion, or even DPM. those stats aren't usually realistic anyway and only vary for the purpose of balance and variety. they are related to the caliber of the gun but very loosely and i think there are outright exceptions, though somebody may correct me on this.

 

plus italian tanks generally seem to have good gun depression. 10 degrees for some. for most, probably less. for a few, even more. still the developers have tampered with the gun gun depression of some vehicles (the chi-ri got 10 degrees instead of 6.5, the swedish autoloaders 12 isntead of 14), as they have often done with many other stats for the same of balancing.

 

now, i don't really remember or care about how hstorically accurate specific tanks in the game are, but they point is, some aspects of them often aren't, and some, like aiming time, are hardly a real thing and i'm sure they're not really based on anything in real life, even though they tend to follow very loose in-game patterns.

 

the frontal hull armour of swedish autoloader is much worse than in the real plans. the side armour much better. the armour and engine power of several tanks have been changed often, which means all versions but one for each at most are inaccurate. WG could totally do the same to italian tanks.

 

 


FOURTH PROBLEM: ITALIAN TANKS ARE FEW

 

the forther we go in the timeline, the scarser and less varied italian tanks become. for example all the italian tank destroyers in my tech-tree, from tier 3 to tier 7, are based on the m13/40 chassis, or that of a very similar tank, such as the M14/41 or the M15/42. the only real differences are the the guns. and sometimes the superstructure. i don't have a solution for this problem. i'm afraid we must accept the italian tree to be rather monotone

 

most italain tanks can be grouped into the following families:

 

-the M series, comprising not only the M11/39, the M13/40, the M14/41 and the M15/42 (i will treat the seconds and third as one tank since their differences aren't enough to place them in different tiers), the carro celere sahariano, the carro medio celere coloniale. and all the semoventes except tier 2's (literally, from tier 3 to tier 8).

 

-the L3/33 series of tankettes derived form the british carden-loyd tankette that received several improvements and were equipped iwth different guns (including a flamethrower). unfortunately all versions and upgrades of the L3/33 could only be in tier 2 at best, execpt for the L6/40 light tank, which i will place in tier 3

 

           variants useful for thee sake of the game include:

          -a turreted version, known as L3 tank, with one prototype built. it could only be a tier one, and even then it would be slow, poorly armoured and with a gun too weak to make up for these weaknesses, provided that we want to be very realistic. it was abandoned as a project because it was slower than the original version because of the added weight of the turret, which would give no real advantage since its traverse speed was lower than the track traverse of the original L3

           -an anti-tank version armed with a 20mm solothurn anti-tank rifle

           -a tank destroyer version armed with a 47mm L32 gun mounted on top of the hull

           -the L6/40 light tank. not really a variant as much as a further development and overall different vehicle, and the semovente da

            47/32,built on the L6/40 chassis. these two are the only two members of this series which that are of too much relevance be left out of

            the tech-tree

 

-the P26/40 series, that includes the P26/40, its earlier version which only existed as a prototype, the P75, and finally the P43 and P43 bis

 

-the leopard series, that includes the italian licence-produced leopard, the leopardino, maybe the europanzer or standard-panzer (i can't find information about the italian involvement in the project), the OF-40 and the palmaria SPG

 

rogue projects include the fiat 2000, the fiat 3000. the fiat 2000, and the project of an m47 patton with an autoloader. as far as i can tell, all of these were dead-ends and spawned no new developments

 

 




WHICH OF THESE THREE WOULD BE THE BEST TIER ONE?

if you want to leave anything to higher tiers that isn't weaker than tier 1, here are what seem to me to be teh only options for a realistic tier 1 italian tank

 

FIAT 3000   https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Fiat_3000

CV-35 or L3/35   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L3/35 or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L3/33

FIAT 2000   https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Fiat_2000

 


FIAT 3000: WHY IT SHOULD AND WHY IT SHOULDN'T BE THE ITALIAN TIER 1

   FIAT 3000 with 37mm                                                    FIAT 3000 with machine.gun
 fiat-3000b-light-tank-01.png          Fiat3000.jpg                         

 

this is the most obvious candidate for a tier 1 for a couple of reasons: it was the first tank to be mass-produced in italy and is related to other tier 1 renault-FT derivates, specifically the chinese, japanese and of course the french.

 

like all other tier 1's it would have the option of two guns: a twin 6.5 mm machine gun (which would have the worst penetration in the game) and a powerful 37mm cannon, very similar to that mounted on the MS-1.

 

however, in reality both the engine and the suspension were upgraded along with the gun in the second version (FIAT 3000B), but the game could not exploit it, since tier ones so far only upgrade their guns. as a tier two, on the other hand, it could keep the FIAT 3000A configuration as stock, and maybe forget about the 6.5mm machine guns. (even as a tier one it would rpobably need to have the 6.5mm replaced with somehting like the 20mm breda 35 since the 6.5mm would probalby have no anti-tank capabilities).

 

i don't know which of the two versions the specifications in wikipedia refer to, but either way it would be too slow and and poorly armoured for a tier 2. i think everyone agrees this is the most elegant choice for tier 1, but below are two other options.

 


FIAT 2000: WHY IT SHOULD BE AND WHY IT SHOULDN'T BE THE ITALIAN TIER 1

 

for some reason i haven't managed to edit the picuress to make them smaller. i've downloaded them and shrinked them but then i failed to upload them. maybe i offended the tank's soul by trying to shrink its glorious size

            The rear of the Fiat 2000 tank was as heavily armed as the front of the tank

   00_f20001.jpg

first prototype version on top and production version in the bottom (the production version didn't enter serial production but an order to produce 100 pieces was initually scheduled and then cancelled)

 

huge and impressive, especially considering it was the second tank in history to mount a rotatng turret (the first being the renault FT), the FIAT 2000 is in my opinion the coolest italian tank ever. it was the first tank to be produced in italy, at the end of WWI, as is said by some to be the world's first heavy tank. with 20 mm of frontal protection and 16 mm on the sides thins tank at tier one would be a monster at sidescraping. add that to the 65 mm howiter with 10 degrees of gun depression and this tank woud probably be overpowered.

 

tier 1 is not a pace for interesting and unusual tanks. it's not a place for variety. the gameplay is too simple. with nerfs and balances at tier 1, it might still have the same problems that the WT auf E-100 used to have, which is it would be a little too extreme in its strength and weaknesses, especially considering all tier 1's are very similar and don't allow for much variety, the 65mm would be even stronger than 6 pounder on the vickers medium mk1, and for balancing purposes even less accurate and slower at aiming. still, the same way the vickers medium got a 6 pounder it was never meant to have in actuality, the FIAT 2000 could have diffrerent guns, at the expense of becoming much blander and drabber, which  would be a bit of a missed opportunity.

 

at tier 2, however, it might be too slow and the armour would lose much of its strength. but if people like the TOG II, then i guess they'd like the FIAT 2000 at tier 2 as well. provided it has enough health points. plus, at tier 2, the restraints on bizarre and extreme characteristics would be much looser and the result would be more interesting than if it were a tier 1.

 


C-35 OR L3/35

at 14mm maximum this tank has weaker armour than the fiat 3000, but it's faster. the reason why i wouldn't want it at tier one (either tier 2 or not in the game) is that it doens't have a turret and would then break the simple tier 1 gameplay, were all tanks have a turret, which is essential for poking from corners and take snapshots: the only tactic tier 1's can use.

 

this tank would be controversial as it would be the only tankette in the game but it would have a wide selection of guns which could make it interesting (flamethrower not included). a turreted version of this tank (the L3) was also experimented (http://ftr.wot-news....nsaldo-and-wot/), which would be better suited as a tier 1.

 




TANK DESTROYER LINE


 

TIER 2:

semovente da 47/32 armed with cannone da 47/32 as a top gun and 37 mm Vickers-Terni L/40 as a stock gun

 https://en.wikipedia...Semovente_47/32

Semovente 47-32 in Aberdeen.jpg   <a href='https://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/photo/italy/semovente_47-32/da47_32_3.jpg' class='bbc_url' title='External link' rel='external'>https://www.aviarmor...2/da47_32_3.jpg</a>

SUGGESTED PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: the short 47mm would be rather inaccuate and underpowered for a TD but would aim fast and the armour would be very good. this tank might want to get relatively close to enemies compared to other TDs and use the fast aiming time to alternate engaging the enemy and angling the armour between shots. bad camo. no need for vents since it has an open top.

 

the following three alternatives have been poposed as tier 2 tank destroyers, sometimes to save the semovente da 47/32 for a higher tier, sometimes even tier 4.

 

in my opinion, all of them, especilly those armed with lower calibers, are underpowered as TDs even at tier 2 and the semovente da 47/32 would not only be perfectly suited for a tier 2, but also underpowered in any higher tier.

 

anyway, here they are

 

1) semovente L3 da 47/32 tank destroyer variant of the cv-35 tankette with the a 47mm gun mounted in the hull, like this:

 

    

without the shield

Posted Image

PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: would probalby need a cut from realism in order to be competitive. the armour would be terrible even for a tier 1. i don't know about the speed, given the heavier gun. the gun is also rather bad with a caliber of 47mm and a length of 32 calibers. i recommend simply ignoring this tank

 

2) M41 carro comando semoventi, with severely underpowered 13.2mm breda mod.31

SUGGESTED PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: good acceleration due to low weight (it has the same chassis and engine of the M11/39 but no turret and a much lighter gun) and also good armour for a TD, but with terrible gun performance. for this reason i'd recommend it as a tier 2 light instead, if we even want it in the game at all. very good camo, which might be of little use given that the gun may need to fire from a close distance from a target in order to penetrate it. open top means no need for vents (at least i think the top is open)

 

3) CV-35 tankette armed with a 20mm southurn anti-tank rifle on the left and with 20mm breda 20/65 mod.1935 (dubious since i can find no reliable source about such weapon being mounted in this tankette) on the right

 

l335+20mm.jpg                        Spa-CV33-20mmBredaAAPrototype-NatForces-

maybe you guys can tell me if it is really a breda 35 in the picture on the right, but for the sake of the game it wouldn't really matter since it wouldn't be the only historically inaccurrate gun in the game

PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: fast but with terrible armour and guns, which wouldn't par well with not having a turret.

 


TIER 3:

semovente da 75/18 armed with 75/18 mod.34 low-velocity howitzer

https://en.wikipedia...ovente_da_75/18

Semovente M42.Saumur.0008fefh.jpg

PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: good armour but below average speed for a TD. low shell velocity and penetration. good alpha damage. to be honest the gun looks much like the D.W.2's stock gun as it has a 25% shorter barrel than the 75/24 grosstraktor's gun. maybe wargaming could close an eye on that and grant it some more penetration? or it could have preferential machmaking.


TIER 4:

semovente da 75/34 armed with 75mm L/34 gun, much longer than the predecessor but with the same caliber. 75/18 mod.34 gun as stock. the frontal armor was one single plate of 42mm instead of two plates of 21mm each

https://en.wikipedia...ovente_da_75/34

Semovente 75 34.jpg

SUGGESTED PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: pretty much average in all aspects. the armour no to slightly better than its predecessor and so is the speed. the gun has better penetration but the same or similar alpha.

 

TIER 5:

semovente da 75/46 armed with 75mm L46 gun

https://en.wikipedia...ovente_da_75/46

M43 75-46.JPG

SUGGESTED PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: rather good armour, especially at long ranges. accurate, fast aiming, and quick firing gun with good penetration. decent mobility


TIER 6:

semovente da 90/53 armed with cannone da 90/53

https://en.wikipedia...ovente_da_90/53

Semovente 90 53.Aberdeen.0008habs.jpeg

SUGGESTED PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: similar to the swedish tier 6 TD. with a high-penetrating and high-velocity gun and terrible armour, but with worse mobility compensated by a smaller silhouette, loger view-range and no need for ventilation (counts as if it was already installed). maybe it should be at tier seven whilr the sem. da 105/25 should be at tier 6.


TIER 7:

semovente da 105/25 armed with 105 mm (4.13 in) L/25

https://en.wikipedia...vente_da_105/25

Semovente 105 25.jpg

SUGGESTED PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: slightly below average in all aspects but with a decent gun, which is the only thing that make it significantly better than the tier 5. for this reason it might be a good idea for it to switch places with the sem. da 90/53 and relocate at tier 6, leaving tier 7 for a sem. da 90/53 with particularly good soft stats.


TIER 8.

i read of a proposal to mount the 105mm gun of hte semovente da 105/25 in the chassis of hte p26/40 heavy tank. if it existed in the drawing boards and wasn't just a mere proposal, it could be suitable for a tier 8. i can't find anything about it, so it seems lie it was nothing more than a rejected proposal.

 

a better option would be the semovente da 120/44. one source i've read mentions a semovente da 120/45 instead. unfortunately, i have found no pictures or data at all.

 

alternatively, this line could switch to artillery. with the semovnte da 149/40 as a tier 8 SPG. whough i'm not sure if it would be powerful enough at tier 8

https://en.wikipedia...vente_da_149/40

Semovente 149 40.Aberdeen.0008p21a.jpeg

 

also, there's this thing. whatever the heck it is

semovente_102_44_1a.jpg

link to the page in the russian website:   http://www.aviarmor....y/sem102_44.htm

as the name suggests, it would have a 105mm gun, provided that the information in the page is correct. the only references to this vehicle that i've found so far are in the page i linked. as far as i know it could be completely fake

PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: i have little clue what either of these is supposed to be like, but the 149mm artiller seems underpowered and maybe unsutable at tier 8.


TIER 9 OR 10:

palmaria. developed in 1977. the first prototype appeared in 1981. it would be the most modern vehicle in the game. in fact almost no tank destroyes and TDs in the game exceed the WWII time-frame, and when they do it's only by a few years. thsi is thanks to the abundance of such vehicle of that era in every nation that has TDs and artillery in the first place. still, it's not the case of italy, that's for sure. with its 4 degrees of gun depression, could the palmaria work as a tank destroyer with long range accuracy and penetration but low turret armour? some tank destroyers have even larger caliber guns, so maybe it woudn't be overpowered (i guess). maybe the tall weak turret would be a deal breaker as a tank destroyer. i'm no military expert though. maybe someone could tell me their opinion.

https://en.wikipedia...aria_(artillery)

Argentinian VCA 155

maybe it wouldn't fit well in the game, since it's at least 30 years more modern than any other artillery or TD in the game. it would have players wonder why italy gets a 1980 SPG while all other nations get WW2 or immediately post-war ones, despite having developed lots of newer ones as well. still, i haven't found anything better, and what's even more frustrating, it woud only cover either of the last two tiers.

PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: dunno. looks kinda strong. i guess the turret armour would be negligible at high tiers though.

Palmaria_Oto_Melara_sel-propelled_howitz

Palmaria_Oto_Melara_sel-propelled_howitz

 

 

 




MEDIUM TANK LINE


 

TIER 2:

Fiat M11/39. 37mm vickers-terni as stock. cannone da 47/32 as top gun. gun palced in the hull because the turret wasn't big enough to house it. it would engage enemy vehicles frontally while the machine guns in hte turret would offer protection against sneakier less armoured threats.

https://en.wikipedia...iki/Fiat_M11/39

Captured Italian tanks 005042.jpg

above: production version captured by australian souldiers (note the kangaroo markings) below: prototype version

The Italian Fiat-Ansaldo (Carro Armato) M11/39 medium tank.

PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: good armour, decent gun, (even better if the historically inaccurate 47mm could also be mounted), good speed, limited gun traverse angle. the internal gun-mantlet is a big weakspot.

 


TIER 3:

Fiat M14/41, with the modules of the Fiat M13/40, most importantly the engine, as a stock configuration. armed with the cannone da 47/32, and possibly with the longer 47 mm / L40 gun as an upgrade.

 

https://en.wikipedia...                historical stock version. the front shows no external differences.

                                                                                               https://en.wikipedia...ki/Fiat_M13/40 

M14 slash 41 Bovington museum.jpg                    Museum at El Alamein - Flickr - heatheronhertravels (9) (cropped).jpg

                                                                                            

these two tanks are basically the same, the one on the left being too small an upgrade to justify placing it in a different tier.

 

i think the differences between these two tanks would be better represented by module upgrades than separate vehicles.

 

separating the two vehicles could still be useful to fill up gaps in the tier 3 of another line. for example we could consider placing them in parallel lines, with either after the L6/40, which i otherwise planned as a tier 3. either of the two tier 3 mediums would push it to tier 2 and occupy the tier 3 place in the light line.

 

it all depends on whether the L6 /40 is good enough for tier 3, and the availability of suitable candidates for tier 2, which would be turretless L3/35 tankette variants, turreted intermediate stages in the development of the L6/40 from the L3/35, and the M41 Carro Comando Semoventi (more on this in the light line).

 

SUGGESTED PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: all-rounder with emphasis on the gun.


TIER 4:

M15/42 tank. an upgraded version of the previous tank in armour, engine power and armament. the turret totates electrically.

 

47 mm / L40 gun as top gun. earlier 47 mm/L32 as stock. it was intended as a stop-gap solution until the heavier P26/40 would have entered service.

https://en.wikipedia...iki/M15/42_tank

M15-42-Saumur.0004yfcp.jpg

SUGGESTED PERFORMANCE IN THE GAME: all-rounder with emphasis on soft gun stats and armour. low turret traverse dispersion. quick aim time, good gun depression, above average armour and below average mobility. above average penetration.


TIER 5:

P26/40 also know simply as P40, originally P-forte. P stands for pesante (heavy), while forte means strong. the designation P40 was an american misunderstanding due to how "forte" is pronounced, especially by an english speaker. some want it at tier 5, some others want it at tier 6, leave tier 5 for earlier prototypes, usually the P75, which had a weaker engine, thinner and less sloped overall armour, the gun of the semovente da 75/18 and later that of the semovente da 75/34 with a smaller coaxial gun.

https://en.wikipedia...rro_Armato_P_40

 

prototype P40 (P75?)

Pilot prototype P40, possibly in early 1942

 

production version

Production vehicle at Genoa, September 1943 - Credits: Wikimedia Commons

 

adolf hitler beholds the P40 and compares it to the wooden mock-up of a german tank destroyer which, according to some sources, had been put there by the germans as a demonstration of how puny the italian competition was in comparison. the italians with their characteristic guile and deceptive cunning, tried to turn the situation to their advantage and pointed out that the hardened steel italian tank was much superior to the wooden one the germans had fielded. fortunately albert speer was there to inform hitler that the german tank was but a mock-up. according to witnesses hitler thanked him and said he "would be lost without him". there is hitherto no consensus among witnesses as to whether hitler rolled his eyes.

The final version of the P26/40, shown to German officials, fall 1943 - Credits: Wikimedia Commons

 

a whole bunch of them. note the ripped track in the second vehicle form the right. how gould teh track have broken after the tank had parked and stopped moving? it is regarded by some as a secret unexplained feature. some conjectured that the tank might have wanted to get rid of the tracks and go full ferrari on its bare wheels, unleashing its italian strength to the fullest. some people believe that the tank was too lazy to dress up well for the group photo with its class mates or was simply rebelling (the P40s were still youngsters). some others maintain that the P40 sucked so much that the tracks would break down on their own even if the wank wasn't moving, but it's worth noting that those "others" are a**holes and that the P40 is awesome.

P26/40 tanks ready to be delivered

 


Edited by CamperKaempfer, 29 July 2017 - 09:51 PM.


CamperKaempfer #2 Posted 11 July 2017 - 04:13 PM

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i've added more pictures and info. if course, this is still under development and i'm far not done editing it, but i'd appreciate any thoughts and comments at any time. i don't think the italians should have a heavy line. the P75, P26/40 and P43 should all be mediums in my opinion. i've noticed that much of the strain in other itlain tech-trees is a result of the relentless will to endow the italians with all kinds of lines, including heavies and SPGs, while my tech tree will only have two major lines

Edited by CamperKaempfer, 11 July 2017 - 05:35 PM.


CamperKaempfer #3 Posted 11 July 2017 - 11:18 PM

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it was a mess in the beginning but now i've edited the **** out of it and it should be readable. you can see i still haven't compòeted it. i still have to finish up the medium line and the begin the light line please let me now what you think. i've gathered there are a few italian tanks enthsiasts in here. i'd like know more about the mysterious designs that pop up in the forums

CamperKaempfer #4 Posted 11 July 2017 - 11:22 PM

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i've finally discovered vollketten's work and i must acknowledge he has much better sources than i do. what i'm doing will be redundant in terms of historical information. what i'm trying to do is to organise them in tiers and discuss how they should play in the game.





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