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Tier 8 MM analysis - since 9.19


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tajj7 #1 Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:37 PM

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So I looked at all my regular matchmaking tier 8 tank's replays since the 9.19 patch (which was end of May).

 

Most of these are tier 8 premiums, now up to today I've played 120 games in those regular tier 8s. Not the hugest sample granted, but the reason for that will soon be obvious but the trend those 120 games show is pretty poor. These games were played on various days and various times basically throughout June and July. Some were platooned but most were solo. 

 

Number of games top tier (So with lesser tanks in the game, either 5-10 or 3-5-7 templates) - 18 = 15%

 

Number of games that were all tier 8 battles - 17 = 14.2%

 

Number of tier 9 game (and from what I noticed the majority of these were 5-10) - 38 = 31.7% 

 

Number of tier 10 games - 47 = 39.2% 

 

So even if we count all tier 8 games as 'top tier' (even though you face no inferior tanks), the percentage of games you are bottom tier (39.2%) is 10% higher than the percentage of games you are 'top tier' (29.2%).

 

IIRC a much larger replay analysis done back in 2015 had tier 8s being top tier in around 42-45% of games, with mid tier around 35%, leaving bottom tier around 20-23%, it should also be remembered that all tier 8 games barely ever happened so the majority of those top tier games pre 9.18 MM changes would have seen lots of tier 6s and 7s. 

 

Tier 8s currently see those games just 15% of the time. 

 

WG that is awful.

 

Yes being bottom tier now is less painful, gone are the days of being the only tier 8 in a tier 10 game, but when we on average only saw those games 1 time in 5, it was in reality less bothersome than it is now where playing a tier 8 tank you face superior tanks in over 70% of games. 

 

As an owner of multiple tier 8 premiums that I now don't want to play I feel you have severely let your customers down. 

 

EDIT: I'll update once I have more games. 


Edited by tajj7, 31 July 2017 - 02:15 PM.


Alexlockerr #2 Posted 30 July 2017 - 08:44 PM

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You must have been lucky , everytime i play tier 8 i get 3 tier 10 games and 1 tier 9 ,repeat . And once in a million games i get full tier 8

Edited by Alexlockerr, 30 July 2017 - 08:45 PM.


laulaur #3 Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:07 PM

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I think you had been lucky bro, my experience was way worse.

I have played 200 games in FV and T25Pilot 

Here is the result: top tier:15---------7.5%
                             same tier:33--------16.5%
                             middle tier:20------10%
                             bottom tier:132-----66%

P.S.: all solo games, no platoon.

P.P.S.: At a second glance our results are almost identical, i just split the games in a different mode.

          Let me explain it: top tier- 3/5/7 and 5/10 games with tier 8 top

                                      same tier- 15 tier 8 tanks

                                     middle tier- 3-5-7 games with tier 9 top

                                     bottom tier- 3/5/7 games with tier 10 top  and  5/10 games with tier 9 tp

 


Edited by laulaur, 30 July 2017 - 09:17 PM.


JuliusCheddar #4 Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:15 PM

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Thank you. We certainly have enough MM threads but we really need number - based analysis like that. WG has to stop ignoring the problem. 

jabster #5 Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:44 PM

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I've only got 53 replays from the LTTB but have quite different results. Top tier, so including all templates, is 40% and if you just look at 3-5-7 with VIII as top tier it's still 34%.

 

Do LT's get better MM?



qpranger #6 Posted 30 July 2017 - 09:47 PM

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View Postjabster, on 30 July 2017 - 10:44 PM, said:

I've only got 53 replays from the LTTB but have quite different results. Top tier, so including all templates, is 40% and if you just look at 3-5-7 with VIII as top tier it's still 34%.

 

Do LT's get better MM?

 

It appears so now, from my experience as well, at least the 6-7-tier ones,

anonym_uktlgGKuDbuG #7 Posted 30 July 2017 - 10:10 PM

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The MM for tier VIII and, to a lesser extent, tier VI is completely screwed.

 

They could somewhat fix it by making the matchmaker for tier X tanks specifically prioritize full tier X matches over other matchups. When playing tier VIII his will likely result in more full tier VIII games and less games facing tier X which is an acceptable solution imo. You'll still rarely see lower tiers but that's simply because tier VIII is by far the most popular tier. I don't think WG can truly fix this.

 

This is an indirect "nerf" to tier X vehicles because they won't be able to stomp lower tiers as often, but imo tier X should be a more elite tier and playing full tier X matches is always interesting.


Edited by Tr0gledyte, 30 July 2017 - 10:13 PM.


Goyon #8 Posted 30 July 2017 - 10:50 PM

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The 3/5/7 has a fundamental design flaw and cannot be fixed.

The 3/5/7 can only work for all tier if at the highest tier the least games are played and at the lowest tier the most games are played.

 

So that is obviously not the case. The most games are played at tier 8. There are in fact twice as much games at tier 8 than at tier 7 and 6.

Tier 8 will always be the worst tier in a 3/5/7 matchmaking doesnt matter how you tweak it.

 

The solution is to go back to the old matchmaking, which wasnt so bad and make some improvements:

- distribute all tank types equally on both teams, including heavies and mediums

- calculate a "weight" of a tank and distribute them equally:

   for example if you have a Maus and a Type 5 both teams get one of them

   or if you have a Leo and a Amx30B both teams gets one of them



tajj7 #9 Posted 30 July 2017 - 10:59 PM

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View Postjabster, on 30 July 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

I've only got 53 replays from the LTTB but have quite different results. Top tier, so including all templates, is 40% and if you just look at 3-5-7 with VIII as top tier it's still 34%.

 

Do LT's get better MM?

 

So I looked at just the light tank games out of my sample -

 

Only 27 in total, so small sample but -

 

Tier 10 games - 10 (37%)

Tier 9 games - 6 (22%)

Tier 8 all games - 1 (3.7%)

3-5-7/5-10 'top tier' games - 10 (37%)

 

So at a guess I'd say that it might have something to do with their mirror matching. 



IncandescentGerbil #10 Posted 31 July 2017 - 12:07 AM

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View PostTr0gledyte, on 30 July 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

The MM for tier VIII and, to a lesser extent, tier VI is completely screwed.

 

They could somewhat fix it by making the matchmaker for tier X tanks specifically prioritizefull tier X matches over other matchups. When playing tier VIII his will likely result in morefull tier VIII games and less games facing tier X which is an acceptable solution imo. You'll still rarely see lower tiers but that's simply because tier VIII is by far the most popular tier. I don't think WG can truly fix this.

 

This is an indirect "nerf" to tier X vehicles because they won't be able to stomp lower tiers as often, but imo tier X should be a more elite tier and playing full tier X matches is always interesting.

Disagree it is "always interesting". Playing a few all tier x games in a row gets boring very quickly in my opinion. Of course the other side of the coin is that playing other tiers now sucks... Basically the entire MM / tier system needs ripping up and starting again. 



jabster #11 Posted 31 July 2017 - 06:08 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 30 July 2017 - 09:59 PM, said:

 

So I looked at just the light tank games out of my sample -

 

Only 27 in total, so small sample but -

 

Tier 10 games - 10 (37%)

Tier 9 games - 6 (22%)

Tier 8 all games - 1 (3.7%)

3-5-7/5-10 'top tier' games - 10 (37%)

 

So at a guess I'd say that it might have something to do with their mirror matching. 

 

As you say, a small sample but interesting never the less. There's been a few posters who've 'noticed' the same thing so currently it does look to be a possibility that classes that are balanced between teams get better MM than those that don't. I did try to see, not very hard to be honest, if you could use the WoT Replay Analysis tool to easily see the composition of the top tiers but no joy so far.

 

 



1ucky #12 Posted 31 July 2017 - 06:42 AM

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View Postjabster, on 30 July 2017 - 09:44 PM, said:

I've only got 53 replays from the LTTB but have quite different results. Top tier, so including all templates, is 40% and if you just look at 3-5-7 with VIII as top tier it's still 34%.

 

Do LT's get better MM?

Yes, they do.

And arty too, btw.



jabster #13 Posted 31 July 2017 - 06:46 AM

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View Post1ucky, on 31 July 2017 - 05:42 AM, said:

Yes, they do.

And arty too, btw.

 

And what are you basing this on. Do you have say the data for the tier placement of your LTs?



TankkiPoju #14 Posted 31 July 2017 - 07:02 AM

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I dunno, but my tier 8 light tanks indeed seem to get more top tier games. And it's not actually that rare to see games where all tier 8 tanks are light tanks.

 

If I was paranoid, I would say WG is trying to make people play Patriots and Defenders less by giving them worse MM. But of course that would be just silly, right? right?



1ucky #15 Posted 31 July 2017 - 07:12 AM

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View Postjabster, on 31 July 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

 

And what are you basing this on. Do you have say the data for the tier placement of your LTs?

I'm basing it on personal experience.

(Often top tier when I chose to play either LT or SPG, in 0.9.19/0.9.19.1.)

 

And yes, I technically do have the raw data to back it up (or debunk it...) since I keep all the replay files.

But I'd have to sort it out (filter out LT/SPG battles and have a quick look at the loading screens of each of them, - or find out some program that can do this automatically) to find out the exact numbers.

And I find this too tedious, so that's why for now I'm going by the feel of the experience.

 

=> Feels like I was certainly much more often top tier when playing LTs or SPGs, than any other class, since 0.9.19.

(Tiers 6-9, btw.)

Edit: Some redundancy removed. :P


Edited by 1ucky, 31 July 2017 - 07:15 AM.


Laatikkomafia #16 Posted 31 July 2017 - 07:16 AM

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Out of 119 consecutive tier 8 battles I had, got these results:

 

Top tier: 21 times. Includes all matches where there were no tier 10s or 9s.
Mid tier: 40 times.
Bottom tier: 58 times.



jabster #17 Posted 31 July 2017 - 07:17 AM

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View Post1ucky, on 31 July 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

I'm basing it on personal experience.

(Often top tier when I chose to play either LT or SPG, in 0.9.19/0.9.19.1.)

 

And yes, I technically do have the raw data to back it up (or debunk it...) since I keep all the replay files.

But I'd have to sort it out (filter out LT/SPG battles and have a quick look at the loading screens of each of them, - or find out some program that can do this automatically) to find out the exact numbers.

And I find this too tedious, so that's why for now I'm going by the feel of the experience.

 

=> Feels like I was certainly much more often top tier when playing LTs or SPGs, than any other class, since 0.9.19.

(Tiers 6-9, btw. I have no Tier 10 LT, but it doesn't really matter, since those can't be low or mid Tier either.)

 

If you download WoT Replay Analyser this can show you the information for tier placement on a tank-by-tank basis. You will have to sort out filtering it by date though.

shishx_the_animal #18 Posted 31 July 2017 - 07:20 AM

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View Posttajj7, on 30 July 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

So I looked at all my regular matchmaking tier 8 tank's replays since the 9.19 patch (which was end of May).

 

Most of these are tier 8 premiums, now up to today I've played 120 games in those regular tier 8s. Not the hugest sample granted, but the reason for that will soon be obvious but the trend those 120 games show is pretty poor. These games were played on various days and various times basically throughout June and July. Some were platooned but most were solo. 

 

Number of games top tier (So with lesser tanks in the game, either 5-10 or 3-5-7 templates) - 18 = 15%

 

Number of games that were all tier 8 battles - 17 = 14.2%

 

Number of tier 9 game (and from what I noticed the majority of these were 5-10) - 38 = 31.7% 

 

Number of tier 10 games - 47 = 39.2% 

 

So even if we count all tier 8 games as 'top tier' (even though you face no inferior tanks), the percentage of games you are bottom tier (39.2%) is 10% higher than the percentage of games you are 'top tier' (29.2%).

 

IIRC a much larger replay analysis done back in 2015 had tier 8s being top tier in around 42-45% of games, with mid tier around 35%, leaving bottom tier around 20-23%, it should also be remembered that all tier 8 games barely ever happened so the majority of those top tier games pre 9.18 MM changes would have seen lots of tier 6s and 7s. 

 

Tier 8s currently see those games just 15% of the time. 

 

WG that is awful.

 

Yes being bottom tier now is less painful, gone are the days of being the only tier 8 in a tier 10 game, but when we on average only saw those games 1 time in 5, it was in reality less bothersome than it is now where playing a tier 8 tank you face superior tanks in over 70% of games. 

 

As an owner of multiple tier 8 premiums that I now don't want to play I feel you have severely let your customers down. 

 

Don't worry taj:

 

View PostMrConway, on 28 July 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

 

We've heard a lot of complaints about platoon matchmaking recently and are currently investigating whether there is an actual issue present or whether it is just a perceived problem.

 

Once we know more we'll let you guys know.

 

:hiding:



ZlatanArKung #19 Posted 31 July 2017 - 07:23 AM

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I am pretty confident LT and TD and Arty gets way better MM then Heavies and Mediums.

Of the 3 top tiered tanks in a battle, you usually see at least 1 from one of these classes, and not to uncommon to see all 3 being from the LT/TD/arty classes.
Then you combine this with popularity (Heavies and Mediums being more popular) you quickly realise that if you want good MM (being top tier) you should play light/td/arty.

Btw, I have now played ~120 battles at T8, mostly Solo.

I have seen T6 tanks 1 time.
Most battles where against T10 tanks.

1ucky #20 Posted 31 July 2017 - 07:26 AM

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View PostTankkiPoju, on 31 July 2017 - 07:02 AM, said:

I dunno, but my tier 8 light tanks indeed seem to get more top tier games. And it's not actually that rare to see games where all tier 8 tanks are light tanks.

 

If I was paranoid, I would say WG is trying to make people play Patriots and Defenders less by giving them worse MM. But of course that would be just silly, right? right?

@T8 Lights: Yupp.

@Silliness: Probably silly, yes. But not just because of "balancing out" Patriots/Defenders, but because all their teammates would get balanced out as well, - too much collateral damage.

Although, it obviously does feel kind of just like that, judging by peoples reports of screwed up T8 MM anyway... :/






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