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Crew training / Swedish line and the pay-to-play element in the game

Swedish line crews

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PanzerKFeldherrnhalle #1 Posted 01 August 2017 - 05:14 PM

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Pay-to-win being premium ammo and rations but let's keep that away from the topic.

After finding a 100% Swedish crew with brothers-in-arms, when I had no idea those had been offered to the player-base, nor that I also had a premium tier II light tank in my garage (L-60 if I'm not mistaken), I've decided 5 days ago to start grinding the Swedish line. Not so much for the tiers VIII and IX auto-loaders (although they look pretty powerful) but because of the Leo and its resemblances with the Comet.
As with every other non-premium time player (I will presume there's plenty of us), there is no skipping tanks, there isn't having equipment in all of the tanks you play, there isn't obviously rations nor premium ammo spamming, but more importantly: There isn't retraining crews with gold nor buying crew members with gold. Grinding a line and crews is done from scratch which isn't all that bad if tiers V and VI tanks aren't all that unplayable. This seems to be the case for the Swedish tier V, unfortunately (I hope I'm mistaken), while the tier VI looks very decent so despite the chaotic nature of the tier it shouldn't be very painful playing it.

Painful, however, is rolling with 75% and 80% crews regardless of tier. The experiment was very simple: seeing how long it would take to train a crew to 100% (never mind 6th sense) in a low tier before the line changes. For Sweden that is tier III to IV where lights become mediums. Starting with a 75% / 80% crew in a tier III tank, it has taken thus far 88 games to see it reaching 99%. For 100% it will take roughly 7 to 8 more games. That is almost 100 games just to get a crew to 100%, when a 100% crew is the minimum standard for any tank to be playable.
How long would have taken for a premium-time player to train the same crew? I'll assume more or less 40 games. This is actually a very significant difference and one I wasn't aware until now. This is also the only element making worthwhile having a premium account.

Edited by LegioCenturion, 01 August 2017 - 05:15 PM.


Strappster #2 Posted 01 August 2017 - 05:22 PM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 01 August 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

Pay-to-win being premium ammo and rations but let's keep that away from the topic.

 

Why did you introduce it as your first line if you want to keep it out of the topic? That makes no sense unless you're setting up a "I didn't say it was p2w but you just did" for later.

 

View PostLegioCenturion, on 01 August 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

How long would have taken for a premium-time player to train the same crew? I'll assume more or less 40 games. This is actually a very significant difference and one I wasn't aware until now. This is also the only element making worthwhile having a premium account.

 

I'll assume 120 games. That is a significant difference and one I wasn't aware of, that non-premium players can grind crews so much more quickly. Who should I contact regarding a refund of all that premium time I've wasted on training crews when it could have been done so much quicker on a standard account?



PanzerKFeldherrnhalle #3 Posted 01 August 2017 - 05:33 PM

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View PostStrappster, on 01 August 2017 - 04:22 PM, said:

1 - Why did you introduce it as your first line if you want to keep it out of the topic? That makes no sense unless you're setting up a "I didn't say it was p2w but you just did" for later.

 

2 - I'll assume 120 games. That is a significant difference and one I wasn't aware of, that non-premium players can grind crews so much more quickly. Who should I contact regarding a refund of all that premium time I've wasted on training crews when it could have been done so much quicker on a standard account?

 

1 - To make the distinction for the pay-to-play description in the title. Pay-to-win obviously exists but that's fine (for me at least). Or it isn't fine but I'm not interested in discussing it. I'm instead speaking of playing any given tank to a minimum standard of enjoyment when for that it is necessary having a 100% crew.

2 - I seriously doubt it will take you 120 games to train a crew with a premium account. The commander and driver started off with less than 90%, if I remember correctly, and that's because I was initially gonna do it in the tier II but it didn't take more than 2 or 3 games to see that would give me cancer. So I had to drop percentage putting that very same crew in the tier III and start afresh. For the Swedish line it is necessary to recruit a loader as that didn't come with the 100% bothers-in-arms crew I mentioned. The loader starts therefore with the 75% / 80% or whatever it is. 88 games to reach 99% and 100 or-so games to reach 100%.

I'm therefore very sure it wouldn't take you 120 games to do it with a premium account, although I can't unfortunately disprove you as I don't have nor will I pay (ever) for premium account.


Edited by LegioCenturion, 01 August 2017 - 05:35 PM.


Cannes76 #4 Posted 01 August 2017 - 06:56 PM

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Since when does it take 100 games to reach 100% primary skill from a starting point of 75%?? Haven't given it much thought myself as I feel I reach 100% primary skill in something like 30 games with a fresh crew. By the time I'm through grinding all the way to tier X, the crew is always well on the way towards having 2 full perks.

Hedgehog1963 #5 Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:00 PM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 01 August 2017 - 04:14 PM, said:

Pay-to-win being premium ammo and rations but let's keep that away from the topic.

After finding a 100% Swedish crew with brothers-in-arms, when I had no idea those had been offered to the player-base, nor that I also had a premium tier II light tank in my garage (L-60 if I'm not mistaken), I've decided 5 days ago to start grinding the Swedish line. Not so much for the tiers VIII and IX auto-loaders (although they look pretty powerful) but because of the Leo and its resemblances with the Comet.
As with every other non-premium time player (I will presume there's plenty of us), there is no skipping tanks, there isn't having equipment in all of the tanks you play, there isn't obviously rations nor premium ammo spamming, but more importantly: There isn't retraining crews with gold nor buying crew members with gold. Grinding a line and crews is done from scratch which isn't all that bad if tiers V and VI tanks aren't all that unplayable. This seems to be the case for the Swedish tier V, unfortunately (I hope I'm mistaken), while the tier VI looks very decent so despite the chaotic nature of the tier it shouldn't be very painful playing it.

Painful, however, is rolling with 75% and 80% crews regardless of tier. The experiment was very simple: seeing how long it would take to train a crew to 100% (never mind 6th sense) in a low tier before the line changes. For Sweden that is tier III to IV where lights become mediums. Starting with a 75% / 80% crew in a tier III tank, it has taken thus far 88 games to see it reaching 99%. For 100% it will take roughly 7 to 8 more games. That is almost 100 games just to get a crew to 100%, when a 100% crew is the minimum standard for any tank to be playable.
How long would have taken for a premium-time player to train the same crew? I'll assume more or less 40 games. This is actually a very significant difference and one I wasn't aware until now. This is also the only element making worthwhile having a premium account.

 

You're a bit slow if you've just discovered this.  This game was always pay to progress.

 

 


Edited by Hedgehog1963, 01 August 2017 - 07:01 PM.


PanzerKFeldherrnhalle #6 Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:02 PM

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View PostCannes76, on 01 August 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

Since when does it take 100 games to reach 100% primary skill from a starting point of 75%?? Haven't given it much thought myself as I feel I reach 100% primary skill in something like 30 games with a fresh crew. By the time I'm through grinding all the way to tier X, the crew is always well on the way towards having 2 full perks.

 

But it does and I wasn't aware of it as well. No-one except new players grind crews in low-tier tanks.
30 odd games should be enough in a tier VI or VII, possibly, not too sure. Without premium account. Never paid attention to it.


-

 

View PostHedgehog1963, on 01 August 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

You're a bit slow if you've just discovered this. This game was always pay to progress.


To know how long it takes to bring a crew to 100% in a tank below tier V or VI it takes doing it, at least once.
Reading and interpreting is hard for some people — congratulations, you're one.


 

Enforcer1975 #7 Posted 01 August 2017 - 07:57 PM

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Tell me where the game is pay to play when it's clearly play for free. Sometimes i wish it was pay to play because it might keep certain players away.

Hedgehog1963 #8 Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:13 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 01 August 2017 - 06:57 PM, said:

Tell me where the game is pay to play when it's clearly play for free. Sometimes i wish it was pay to play because it might keep certain players away.

 

They days of me having this opinion are coming to a middle.

DracheimFlug #9 Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:23 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 01 August 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

Tell me where the game is pay to play when it's clearly play for free. Sometimes i wish it was pay to play because it might keep certain players away.

 

In the case of crew, there is an argument that it is pay to win, since 75% crew is pretty horrid compared to 100%. Even a 90% crew seems a significant handicap.

 

As for how many matches it takes to get to 100%, that depends on how the matches, go, doesn't it? Even a win does not guarantee that you did well in that match, and if you are starting stock rather than spending free xps to elite the tank, you are even more handicapped. 



Lil_Dimitry #10 Posted 01 August 2017 - 09:57 PM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 01 August 2017 - 07:02 PM, said:

 

But it does and I wasn't aware of it as well. No-one except new players grind crews in low-tier tanks.
30 odd games should be enough in a tier VI or VII, possibly, not too sure. Without premium account. Never paid attention to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

   Free xp'ed tier 1 2 3 (can't be asked to play that lowtier trash, never did and never will) the only reason I started playing at tier 4 is that I would rather play 10 games in a trash tank than pay 15k free xp for it. 75% crew that was retrained (for credits) from tier 4 to here, almost first skill using 200%/300% boosters. All tanks were played from stock, no free xp used for modules because I couldn't care less about lowtier stats (especially tds). If you don't want to pay what, 8 euros a month?! for a hobby that doesn't make it pay to win or pay to play.


Edited by Lil_Dimitry, 01 August 2017 - 09:59 PM.


Hedgehog1963 #11 Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:38 PM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 01 August 2017 - 06:06 PM, said:


To know how long it takes to bring a crew to 100% in a tank below tier V or VI it takes doing it, at least once.
Reading and interpreting is hard for some people — congratulations, you're one.

 

I read and understood it all.

Strappster #12 Posted 01 August 2017 - 11:29 PM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 01 August 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

Pay-to-win obviously exists ...

 

If it's so obvious, you should be able to provide a source or evidence for your claims beyond your personal conjecture or various threads where others with an axe to grind are shouting about it. Your argument is based solely on your thoughts, there's nothing concrete behind it except your pointing at the known advantages of a premium account and shouting, "no fair".

 

View PostLegioCenturion, on 01 August 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I'm instead speaking of playing any given tank to a minimum standard of enjoyment when for that it is necessary having a 100% crew.

 

It's advantageous, certainly, but it's hardly a necessity. I regularly enjoy playing my 75% crews in tier 5 tanks more than my 2 or 3-skill crews in higher tiers. Your "minimum standard of enjoyment" obviously differs from mine but it shows that your claims are personal rather than the general issue for all players that you're pretending they are.

 

View PostLegioCenturion, on 01 August 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

2 - I seriously doubt it will take you 120 games to train a crew with a premium account. The commander and driver started off with less than 90%, if I remember correctly, and that's because I was initially gonna do it in the tier II but it didn't take more than 2 or 3 games to see that would give me cancer. So I had to drop percentage putting that very same crew in the tier III and start afresh. For the Swedish line it is necessary to recruit a loader as that didn't come with the 100% bothers-in-arms crew I mentioned. The loader starts therefore with the 75% / 80% or whatever it is. 88 games to reach 99% and 100 or-so games to reach 100%.


I'm therefore very sure it wouldn't take you 120 games to do it with a premium account, although I can't unfortunately disprove you as I don't have nor will I pay (ever) for premium account.

 

Amazing how you can dismiss one assumption based only on your prejudices while basing your argument on another, isn't it.

 

I could play terribly with a premium account, ending in the bottom 3 of the team from every battle win or lose. Playing well and finishing in the top 3 over the same number of battles is going to bring me more xp even on a standard account. I don't have to conduct any tests to prove this, you've shown that all I need to do is be strident enough about being right.



PanzerKFeldherrnhalle #13 Posted 02 August 2017 - 12:53 AM

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View PostDracheimFlug, on 01 August 2017 - 08:23 PM, said:

In the case of crew, there is an argument that it is pay to win, since 75% crew is pretty horrid compared to 100%. Even a 90% crew seems a significant handicap.


Crews and others. Premium ammo, avoiding stock modules (guns and turret) and one consumable in particular (rations) are the most obvious.

 

-

 

View PostLil_Dimitry, on 01 August 2017 - 08:57 PM, said:

 

Free xp'ed tier 1 2 3 (can't be asked to play that lowtier trash, never did and never will) the only reason I started playing at tier 4 is that I would rather play 10 games in a trash tank than pay 15k free xp for it. 75% crew that was retrained (for credits) from tier 4 to here, almost first skill using 200%/300% boosters. All tanks were played from stock, no free xp used for modules because I couldn't care less about lowtier stats (especially tds). If you don't want to pay what, 8 euros a month?! for a hobby that doesn't make it pay to win or pay to play.


Feel somewhat sorry that you have to play that line with that crew. You have my sympathy. As for the rest 8 euros isn't a heavy, a ludicrous or an irrational investment. On the contrary. In my case it's a matter of principle but I don't ill-judge someone who buys premium time.



 

View PostStrappster, on 01 August 2017 - 10:29 PM, said:

If it's so obvious, you should be able to provide a source or evidence for your claims beyond your personal conjecture or various threads where others with an axe to grind are shouting about it. Your argument is based solely on your thoughts, there's nothing concrete behind it except your pointing at the known advantages of a premium account and shouting, "no fair".

It's advantageous, certainly, but it's hardly a necessity. I regularly enjoy playing my 75% crews in tier 5 tanks more than my 2 or 3-skill crews in higher tiers. Your "minimum standard of enjoyment" obviously differs from mine but it shows that your claims are personal rather than the general issue for all players that you're pretending they are.

Amazing how you can dismiss one assumption based only on your prejudices while basing your argument on another, isn't it.

I could play terribly with a premium account, ending in the bottom 3 of the team from every battle win or lose. Playing well and finishing in the top 3 over the same number of battles is going to bring me more xp even on a standard account. I don't have to conduct any tests to prove this, you've shown that all I need to do is be strident enough about being right.


I don't have a doubt in my mind that you wouldn't notice a 75% crew in comparison to a 100% one.

 


 

Strappster #14 Posted 02 August 2017 - 01:19 AM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 02 August 2017 - 12:06 AM, said:

I don't have a doubt in my mind that you wouldn't notice a 75% crew in comparison to a 100% one.

 

You're right, I've often said that I try to withhold judgement on a tank before I've got it fully upgraded with a 100% crew. But that's not what this thread is about, is it. You started this thread to complain about the injustice of people using a premium account to hasten their progress; how well a tank plays with a less than fully-trained crew is immaterial to that point.

 

I've also said that buying premium time was the biggest mistake I made back when I started playing because it allowed me to rush into tiers that I didn't know how to play while I was still trying to understand the game mechanics. If anything, playing on a standard account should turn out a better player in the long term because of the increased amount of time spent learning and grinding.

 

So tell us - what's the actual issue you're complaining about? You're the one who's chosen to be free-to-play and it appears that you've done well with that approach. Is it not enough? Are you upset because other players get to the higher tiers before you and you're forced to grind out the credits and xp before you can join them? Or have you reached a point where your stats aren't improving as much as they used to and you're looking for something to blame it on?



PanzerKFeldherrnhalle #15 Posted 02 August 2017 - 01:23 AM

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View PostStrappster, on 02 August 2017 - 12:19 AM, said:

You started this thread to complain about the injustice of people using a premium account to hasten their progress.


Reread the thread—only suggestion I can offer you, although I doubt it will help you :)



Strappster #16 Posted 02 August 2017 - 01:29 AM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 02 August 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

Reread the thread—only suggestion I can offer you, although I doubt it will help you :)

 

I've already read it once but if that's the only thing you have to back up your argument, it rather settles mine, doesn't it.



PanzerKFeldherrnhalle #17 Posted 02 August 2017 - 01:37 AM

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It's more lack of will of wasting time with simultaneously clueless and shouting damsels in distress anymore than the necessary.
But you know, I'm old school.

laulaur #18 Posted 02 August 2017 - 02:30 AM

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I don't understand what is the point of this topic.

If you don't want to waste time you must pay.

People demand something back for their money. Do you think someone will pay for premium account/premium time if that would give them no benefits?

No crew for swedes? Did you not got the girl crew from crismass special? Or you could just get some girls from personal missions.

I combined those two and now both swedish lines are fully crewed.

Or you could just use the 100%-399% crew xp boosters you get for free...


Edited by laulaur, 02 August 2017 - 02:35 AM.


Strappster #19 Posted 02 August 2017 - 02:35 AM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 02 August 2017 - 12:37 AM, said:

It's more lack of will of wasting time with simultaneously clueless and shouting damsels in distress anymore than the necessary.
But you know, I'm old school.

 

I didn't start a thread crying about how unfair premium time is. Not sure what old school you went to but they didn't do a particularly good job, did they.



DracheimFlug #20 Posted 02 August 2017 - 07:33 AM

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View PostLegioCenturion, on 02 August 2017 - 12:53 AM, said:


Crews and others. Premium ammo, avoiding stock modules (guns and turret) and one consumable in particular (rations) are the most obvious.

 

All the rest of that is available for credits, and can thus be ground in an elite tank with a good crew that can supply itself with enough premium ammo (should not need a full load of the stuff in any tank you would use for this purpose). Not sure on how cost effective it is to buy rations routinely. 




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