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Is the gap between tiers widening?


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Noo_Noo #1 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:01 AM

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Hi All

 

Just a feeling I've been getting of late in that with all the current balance issues and that thing that shall not be mentioned it just feels like the step from one tier to the next is widening. 

As an example of sorts, Tier 6 tanks now really struggle with some of the tier 8 tanks that they meet and increasingly so. The newer glut of premium tanks certainly are a prime example of this. Your standard Tier 8 tanks against some of the tier 10 tanks is also an example. To put numbers to it the Type 5's armour is balanced round premium ammo. This however leaves it pretty much impervious to some tier 8 tanks. 

Just a feeling and some thoughts I've been having. Anyone agree / disagree?



Suurpolskija #2 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:07 AM

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It was always like that imo. Sure in case on defender/chrysler/patriot it's pretty grim for a tier6, but not really different from facing kv4 or IS-3/6

Noo_Noo #3 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:22 AM

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View PostSuurpolskija, on 04 August 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

It was always like that imo. Sure in case on defender/chrysler/patriot it's pretty grim for a tier6, but not really different from facing kv4 or IS-3/6

 

Dunno Just get this feeling that it's becoming more of an issue. 

I know that in my M4A1 rev that the 250 HEAT premium rounds is pretty much a 50/50 as to whether it will go through the front of a Type 5. If he angles there's no hope. Doesn't leave much option. 

It just seems that games are becoming more an more reliant on your top tier tanks performing. If they dont then the game leans towards a loss. Even their positioning in the game becomes really crucial. If they take the wrong flank for example, 

As I said just a feeling or perhaps I'm just noticing it more these days

Quintuss #4 Posted 04 August 2017 - 11:36 AM

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Deffinitly.

If you look though the patch notes basically 90% of the buffs are tier 8-10 - inevitably with every buff for T8/9 the tier T7 get shafted a bit more. Especially tier 7 meds were never that good, but currently they have become a bad joke - while some tier 7 HTs and TDs still have notable strenghts to build on (T29 bunker turret, E25 camo, SU122-44 DPM,...) very many are near-obsolete being not only near chanceless against higher tiers but acctually falling behind decent tanks of lower tiers (T43 vs T34-85M for example).



Gkirmathal #5 Posted 04 August 2017 - 11:42 AM

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View PostSuurpolskija, on 04 August 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

It was always like that imo. Sure in case on defender/chrysler/patriot it's pretty grim for a tier6, but not really different from facing kv4 or IS-3/6

 

You mention the last 3 tanks that were already grim for a tier 6 to face (I agree) and the newest three won;t make much of a difference (I disagree).

 

It's not these individual tier 8 tanks, it is the increased likelihood of their occurrence to encounter these tanks, due to there being more 'grim' opponents (6 instead of original 3). Which make gap between them and tier 6 feel that much wider.

Also in the way how 3/5/7 higher prioritized (more heavily weighted) in the MM algorithm, this just emphasizes this 'gap' even more.

 

Also the new rebalance reworks tier 8's are getting to make their armor more resilient vs the power creep WG has created themselves, also is starting to affect the lower tier, which are ignored in the rebalance process. Thus the gap between 6/7 vs 8+ is getting even more wider.



PowJay #6 Posted 04 August 2017 - 11:53 AM

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The problem is probably not the gap between the tiers as the perception of the gap between the tiers. 

 

What I mean is that most players seem to be aware of the problem of being bottom tier all too frequently. Therefore we are more often aware of how difficult it can be to play against two tiers higher.

 

Just a thought. 



Homer_J #7 Posted 04 August 2017 - 12:18 PM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 04 August 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

 

As an example of sorts, Tier 6 tanks now really struggle with some of the tier 8 tanks that they meet 

 

No more than the tier 4 tanks used to struggle with the tier 9 they met.



Suurpolskija #8 Posted 04 August 2017 - 12:18 PM

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View PostGkirmathal, on 04 August 2017 - 12:42 PM, said:

 

You mention the last 3 tanks that were already grim for a tier 6 to face (I agree) and the newest three won;t make much of a difference (I disagree).

 

It's not these individual tier 8 tanks, it is the increased likelihood of their occurrence to encounter these tanks, due to there being more 'grim' opponents (6 instead of original 3). Which make gap between them and tier 6 feel that much wider.

Also in the way how 3/5/7 higher prioritized (more heavily weighted) in the MM algorithm, this just emphasizes this 'gap' even more.

 

Also the new rebalance reworks tier 8's are getting to make their armor more resilient vs the power creep WG has created themselves, also is starting to affect the lower tier, which are ignored in the rebalance process. Thus the gap between 6/7 vs 8+ is getting even more wider.

 

But the thing is, the basic encounter remains the same: 

 

Say you're playing a crommy and you need to fighr any of the forementioned heavy tanks. You weren't able to frontally pen them before and you're still not gonna do it. 

 

The problem might be more the match making where you might be forced more often to have to deal with these and the only way is the same: tier6 medium will need side shots and avoid getting damaged in the first place. 

 

So, maybe the new MM makes it feel that way, but I still think it would be just as unfair with the old tanks. 



Gkirmathal #9 Posted 04 August 2017 - 01:31 PM

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View PostSuurpolskija, on 04 August 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

 

But the thing is, the basic encounter remains the same: 

 

Say you're playing a crommy and you need to fighr any of the forementioned heavy tanks. You weren't able to frontally pen them before and you're still not gonna do it. 

 

The problem might be more the match making where you might be forced more often to have to deal with these and the only way is the same: tier6 medium will need side shots and avoid getting damaged in the first place. 

 

So, maybe the new MM makes it feel that way, but I still think it would be just as unfair with the old tanks. 

 

I agree with that and I agree this enhances a subjective feeling of the gap getting bigger.

 

What I meant to say was: imo with the 3/5/7 for tier 6, also it and 10/5 for 7. The likelihood of getting to face such 3x as top tier (or 5x) tanks, is currently greater. Because more of them are being played more often, over the regular (more balanced) standard tier 8's (if those tier 8's are lucky to get such top tier MM that is :harp:) I think tier 7 is that regard is still a bit harsher that tier 6.

 

Also objectively though speaking it is also getting bigger.

The reworks are (mostly) not being done to tanks under tier 8 (see proposed UK re balance for instance). The tier 8+'s getting reworked, are being made more resilient to the harsher environment they face, by upping armor values/weak spost.

But remember that these tanks with increased armor values are going to be put up against tier 6 and 7 as well, albeit at a lower occurrence, who will increasingly struggle how to deal with them (also insert the current map issues with this).

 

So that is how I see it, their is an increase in the power gap, which is noticeable.

WG tries to deal with the tier 8 vs + issue, they way they are doing now. But this becomes sort of a down ward spiral, or an increase in the gap of performance.


Edited by Gkirmathal, 04 August 2017 - 02:22 PM.


Cobra6 #10 Posted 04 August 2017 - 01:48 PM

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Yeah with the over-buffing of more and more armour now, the gap will just widen.

 

Soon WG will have no other choice than to make MM +1 instead of +2. I mean, what hope do you honestly have in your Cromwell/Pudel/M4 against a Defender in most situations in World of Corridors? Hardly any even if you play well.

 

That Defender only has to hit you twice while you need to hit and penetrate it 10=>14 times, the stress being on penetrate it.

A superior player should be able to take on tanks 1 or 2 tiers higher with good play and that is becoming less and less likely nowadays.

 

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NervosCuNervii #11 Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:28 PM

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Another issue that makes this thing worse is the removal of tank weights and using other ways of matching them together.


From what I can figure HT = MT for the matchmaker and its tendency to stack tanks of the same model in one team, so to take the tier 6 example against tier 8, you can get a medium (or 2 or 3) as top tier and the enemy can get a heavy (and a medium or another heavy). If your medium is not competent and dies early, there goes the high tier carry and you end up in a roflstomp. I mean, let's be real here, as a bottom tier you are purely a support tank regardless of class.

 

Other than the +/- 1 MM I am wondering for some time why they don't normalize the HP of the tanks between tiers. You would still feel that you go up the tiers when the armor becomes stronger and the guns deal more damage, but you won't get one or two shot anymore which would make the +2 experience more bearable.
At the moment a tier 6 heavy tank has around 900 hp while a tier 8 one has around 1500 (excluding the extremes here). The tier 6 one does around 240 damage while the tier 8 does 320-400.
The thing now is that the bottom tier guy can't pen reliably the top tier one and gets two shot because reasons. With similar HP levels the tier 8 one would have to use its armor, figure the reload of the opponent and not stand in front of the tier 6 like in the Napoleonic times and blast each other (asuming the tier 6 shoots premium).



Homer_J #12 Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:39 PM

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View PostNervosCuNervii, on 04 August 2017 - 02:28 PM, said:

Another issue that makes this thing worse is the removal of tank weights and using other ways of matching them together.


From what I can figure HT = MT for the matchmaker 

 

Whereas it used to be HT = MT one tier higher, and the mm still stacked tanks of one type on the same team so you had 8 IS vs 8 Type 59.

 

Really, the idea that things are getting worse is entirely perceived and in no way based in reality.



NervosCuNervii #13 Posted 04 August 2017 - 02:49 PM

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Not really. When tank weights were still a thing, the overall teams were better balanced. Now you can get several overbuffed tanks in a team against regular tanks which further makes life harder for the bottom tier guys as they have to fight a tougher opponent than the opponent's team does.

Edited by NervosCuNervii, 04 August 2017 - 02:50 PM.


Noo_Noo #14 Posted 04 August 2017 - 03:02 PM

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View PostCobra6, on 04 August 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

Yeah with the over-buffing of more and more armour now, the gap will just widen.

 

Soon WG will have no other choice than to make MM +1 instead of +2. I mean, what hope do you honestly have in your Cromwell/Pudel/M4 against a Defender in most situations in World of Corridors? Hardly any even if you play well.

 

That Defender only has to hit you twice while you need to hit and penetrate it 10=>14 times, the stress being on penetrate it.

A superior player should be able to take on tanks 1 or 2 tiers higher with good play and that is becoming less and less likely nowadays.

 

Cobra 6

 

Very fair points> I watched some of QB's stream last night where he played the Pudel a fair bit. Wasn't going too well for him. At one point he was comparing his stats in the Pudel to the Skoda T40 (I think it was) as they are very similar. Pretty massive difference and other than the fact that he's been playing them at different times / patches. 

Certainly food for thought. 

I do agree with peoples observations on previous MM's putting you against tanks much higher tiers than you. Of course you couldn't do anything to them and rightly so but my fear is now we're quickly approaching the situation where you have tanks two tiers lower simply becoming nothing but canon fodder. Only two tiers. Fine if it were 3 or 4 but not 2. For me every tank in the game should be able to damage another. Rightly so it should be more difficult if you're 2 tiers lower but it shouldn't be impossible. 

I do also concede that may maps do not allow flanking manoeuvres to take place until late game, if at all.  

Search_Warrant #15 Posted 04 August 2017 - 03:08 PM

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Gaps in tiers was always an issue. it just gota larger roaster every time WG decide to implement more tier 8 premiums that are broken. or add another tree with a huge gun or a stupidly OP autoloader.

Edited by Search_Warrant, 04 August 2017 - 03:09 PM.


Nexuo #16 Posted 04 August 2017 - 03:19 PM

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TBH, no. I don't see the tier widening in particularly between 6 and 8. Beside the obviously OP premiums that has come out.

What i do have noticed a few times is the imbalance in hitpoints between the teams. I have seen some games where one team has 2000 less hit points in a 3-5-7 template games in tier 6-8 game. That's effectively 2 or 3 more tanks on hitpoints. Needless to say those games were lost for the team with far less hit points. I can remember only 1 game where it wasn't lost: i happen to be 1 of the 3 top tier tank and i did my best to carry...



HidesHisFace #17 Posted 04 August 2017 - 04:21 PM

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The problem with tier gaps in WoT is that they are inconsistent - and it always has been.

 

Some tiers present a massive jump in firepower, health and often armour layout as well, depending on the line.

Say - let's look at the heavy line leading to E-100:

Tier 1 - 130hp 30pen, 11dmg

Tier 2 - 170hp (increase by 30%) 39pen, 11dmg

Tier 3 - 240hp (40%), 60pen, 70dmg

Now, these, I do not count that much, because classes change. So let's go to the heavies themselves:

DW2 - 440 (45%), 60pen, 70dmg

VK 30.01 H - 660 (50% more health), 157pen, 135dmg - more than double the pen, and nearly double the damage.

VK 36.01 H - 950 (only 43% this time), 145pen, 220dmg - decrease in pen, massive increase in damage - also, double the front armour.

Tiger 1 - 1500 (57% - now that is MASSIVE), 203pen, 240dmg 

Tiger 2 - 1600 (only 6%), 225pen, 320dmg

E75 - 1920 (20%), 246pen, 490dmg - the increase in health is not that significant but increase in firepower and armour make up for it - Tiger 2 has nearly useless armour, E75 actually decently armoured.

E100 - 2700 (40%), 246pen, 750dmg - again, a serious hp increase, huge damage increase.

 

Notice, jump from tier 4 to 5 and from tier 6 to 7 are the most prominent. The progression between tiers is NOT steady - in fact, it is very jumpy at times, and sometimes the gameplay of entire lines changes depending on tiers - like jump between AMX M4 and AMX 50 100 - a massive change in gameplay due to autoloader or earlier in the same line - jump between B1 and BDR - from heavily armoured fast firing frontline heavy, to dedicated support tank.

 

 


Edited by HidesHisFace, 04 August 2017 - 04:22 PM.


sgtYester #18 Posted 04 August 2017 - 04:32 PM

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tier 8-10 are fairly balanced against eachother.  anything lower..nope  

 

tier 6 meeting tier 8 is a joke.  almost all tier 8 can kill a tier6 with 2 shots while u would need 6-10  to do the same...IF u even manage to pen them


Edited by sgtYester, 04 August 2017 - 04:53 PM.


Cobra6 #19 Posted 04 August 2017 - 06:03 PM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 04 August 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

 

Very fair points> I watched some of QB's stream last night where he played the Pudel a fair bit. Wasn't going too well for him. At one point he was comparing his stats in the Pudel to the Skoda T40 (I think it was) as they are very similar. Pretty massive difference and other than the fact that he's been playing them at different times / patches. 

Certainly food for thought. 
 

 

Pudel is hit an miss though, played it for 2 nights and the first night I got 72% wr and something like 1500 damage average.

Second night (Yesterday) 53% wins and 1000 average damage but far worse teams and MM.

 

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Bennie182 #20 Posted 04 August 2017 - 08:46 PM

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View PostNoo_Noo, on 04 August 2017 - 10:22 AM, said:

 

Dunno Just get this feeling that it's becoming more of an issue. 

I know that in my M4A1 rev that the 250 HEAT premium rounds is pretty much a 50/50 as to whether it will go through the front of a Type 5. If he angles there's no hope. Doesn't leave much option. 

It just seems that games are becoming more an more reliant on your top tier tanks performing. If they dont then the game leans towards a loss. Even their positioning in the game becomes really crucial. If they take the wrong flank for example, 

As I said just a feeling or perhaps I'm just noticing it more these days

 

Agree, tier 6 are indeed a lot harder to play. Those superheavies are way harder to pen on sides for example. Tanks like Is3 I never had too much problems with, but the newer tanks make it unplayable as bottomtier. Especially because loads of games there are loads of heavies and td's. I noticed overall that loads of games have 2 toptier td's




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