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Why is Skill-based MM a bad thing for SH/CW?


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WindSplitter1 #1 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:08 PM

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@Moderation Team, the purpose of this thread is to understand how this peculiar aspect of MM affects gameplay in other game modes and not the MM itself. I would appreciate it if you didn't just close the thread.

 

As the title says. I can figure a couple reasons out but I hear from you guys/gals first. I've seen multiple forumites rebuking this, hence the question.



lord_chipmonk #2 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:10 PM

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Forgive me for my ignorance, I've not played much of either, but wouldn't skill based MM be hard fir SH and CW as you effectively play against whoever you attack, so there is no matchmaker per say. 

Edited by lord_chipmonk, 04 August 2017 - 10:10 PM.


WindSplitter1 #3 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:12 PM

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View Postlord_chipmonk, on 04 August 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

Forgive me for my ignorance, I've not played much of either, but wouldn't skill based MM be hard fir SH and CW as you effectively play against whoever you attack, so there is no matchmaker per say. 

 

I'm quite ignorant on the subject myself as I only played in SH during the period skill MM was instated, so... But this make sense.

 

But why do people complain on this basis?


Edited by WindSplitter1, 04 August 2017 - 10:12 PM.


lord_chipmonk #4 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:13 PM

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View PostWindSplitter1, on 04 August 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

But why do people complain on this basis?

 

Do they? I know some people complain about the lack of SBMM in random battles...



Unkel_Dolan #5 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:23 PM

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it ruined skirmishes for a few reasons

-longer queue times

-meet the same teams several times in the same session

-have to bring tryhard lineup

-have to shoot some gold to counter enemy tryhard lineup

-lower box income

 

before skill MM you had no queue time and you could bring a few subpar tanks, it resulted in more fun, much better credit grinding, you could also grind some stinky tanks painlessly, and you made enough boxes in 1 session to replenish the clan bonus you used for that session

 

In CW it's irrelevant, you only get ELO based matching for the first round of landing tournaments, after that it's mostly random luck



brumbarr #6 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:24 PM

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It has a couple of effects:

1) It makes it irrelevant in how good of a clan you are and gives the same rewards regardless of performance, so there is no incentive to improve.

 2) Better clans lose more, noone likes losing.

3) Playing against good clans all  the time is boring

4) Due to  the harsher environment now,  clans are forced to take the best setups to have a shot to win and have to tryhard.

5) Less income for better clans.

 

It basicly changed it from a fun, chill mode to a hardcore mode while beign rewarded less then before.


Edited by brumbarr, 04 August 2017 - 10:25 PM.


ZlatanArKung #7 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:24 PM

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People complaining about SBMM in SH because it ruined the fun of it (choosing whatever tank you liked) together with Defender for players like me (blue/purple players who doesn't try-hard or want to be competetive but yet want to play with their clant in a for fun mode).

Since it became skillbased, it became so much more try-hard which ruined it for me, together with Defender.

If I wanted to try hard, I could choose a try-hard clan, a try-hard mode (ranked team battles/CW/global map etc).

The implementation of sbmm removed what was essentially a 'random battle with your clan'. For SH.

Edited by ZlatanArKung, 04 August 2017 - 10:24 PM.


brumbarr #8 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:26 PM

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View PostZlatanArKung, on 04 August 2017 - 10:24 PM, said:



The implementation of sbmm removed what was essentially a 'random battle with your clan'. For SH.

Which it now basicly i again since you can invite 12 random people to your skirmish while only having 3 from the clan...



Unkel_Dolan #9 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:37 PM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 04 August 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

Which it now basicly i again since you can invite 12 random people to your skirmish while only having 3 from the clan...

 

this change shows how stupid WG is. clans play a lot less skirmishes because most of the fun is gone, so now when you try to make a detachment you struggle to get clan mates to join since they would rather just play randoms. WG's solution? give more legionnaire spots. bravo.

Tidal_Force #10 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:42 PM

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AFAIK the main problem isn't SBMM itself.

 

Problem is that rewards are not scaled based on clan rank - beating strong enemy gives same reward as beating easy enemy. Thus SBMM means you have to put much more effort and you get nothing in return. Add OP premiums, tryhard setups, and SH provides neither fun NOR profit.


Edited by Tidal_Force, 04 August 2017 - 10:45 PM.


Jigabachi #11 Posted 04 August 2017 - 10:53 PM

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Just as a hint, so that we all are talking about the same thing... which pretty much is NEVER the case in these kinds of threads: There isn't just one "skillbased MM". There are tons of possible interpretations and systems that use different variables and all that stuff. So better explain what kind of SBMM you mean...

 

edit: Misread the thread a bit. Didn't know that WG already tried it...


Edited by Jigabachi, 04 August 2017 - 10:54 PM.


WindSplitter1 #12 Posted 04 August 2017 - 11:05 PM

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View PostJigabachi, on 04 August 2017 - 09:53 PM, said:

Just as a hint, so that we all are talking about the same thing... which pretty much is NEVER the case in these kinds of threads: There isn't just one "skillbased MM". There are tons of possible interpretations and systems that use different variables and all that stuff. So better explain what kind of SBMM you mean...

 

edit: Misread the thread a bit. Didn't know that WG already tried it...

 

Yeah, that was partly my fault. I wanted to add a few more things but I kept having DB connection errors. Sorry about that.

brumbarr #13 Posted 04 August 2017 - 11:09 PM

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View PostJigabachi, on 04 August 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

Just as a hint, so that we all are talking about the same thing... which pretty much is NEVER the case in these kinds of threads: There isn't just one "skillbased MM". There are tons of possible interpretations and systems that use different variables and all that stuff. So better explain what kind of SBMM you mean...

 

edit: Misread the thread a bit. Didn't know that WG already tried it...

 

yeah, the MM in SH and CW is skill based for some time already. They just try to match 2 teams by skil level, prob by clan elo rating.

brisha #14 Posted 05 August 2017 - 01:33 AM

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I know a few people in better clams and their reason was honest. The simple fact is they couldn't steam roll the idiot teams and they didn't like not winning all the time.

 

Reality is they were in it for the easy credits, having sbmm meant they were meeting teams they just couldn't beat half the time so the interest went. SH became a lame duck, and tbh it was detrimental to the whole game as a lot of players played SH almost exclusively.


 

This is still a team game, WG are killing it slowly, now even platoons are heavily punished in this current MM so more players I know are gone.



jabster #15 Posted 05 August 2017 - 06:59 AM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 04 August 2017 - 09:24 PM, said:

It has a couple of effects:

1) It makes it irrelevant in how good of a clan you are and gives the same rewards regardless of performance, so there is no incentive to improve.

 2) Better clans lose more, noone likes losing.

3) Playing against good clans all  the time is boring

4) Due to  the harsher environment now,  clans are forced to take the best setups to have a shot to win and have to tryhard.

5) Less income for better clans.

 

It basicly changed it from a fun, chill mode to a hardcore mode while beign rewarded less then before.

 

Not played it myself and without trying to be rude you often see the argument that skillbased MM shouldn't be in randoms as there are other competitive modes for that. What you seem to be describing was a mode that means good clans get given easy wins and credits which doesn't exactly sound like the competitive mode I'd expect.



Zhul87 #16 Posted 05 August 2017 - 07:55 AM

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View PostRenamedUser_500212111, on 04 August 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

it ruined skirmishes for a few reasons

-longer queue times

-meet the same teams several times in the same session

-have to bring tryhard lineup

-have to shoot some gold to counter enemy tryhard lineup

-lower box income

 

before skill MM you had no queue time and you could bring a few subpar tanks, it resulted in more fun, much better credit grinding, you could also grind some stinky tanks painlessly, and you made enough boxes in 1 session to replenish the clan bonus you used for that session

 

In CW it's irrelevant, you only get ELO based matching for the first round of landing tournaments, after that it's mostly random luck

 

Replying for T6/T8 and SH rank within top 100-300 only

 

- if there is a slight increase, then it is only because there are less players available due to mimimi, has nothing to do with mm

- partly true, sometimes you see the same team(s) again

- no, you don't have to! we pretty much use the same setup(s) as before with smaller adjustments due to tank changes

- being forced to shoot some gold is not a fault of the mm, but due to the presence of toxic tanks. Almost all teams put roughly 50% premium tanks in their setups.

- havent looked into it, but from what I recall it is the same

 

View Postbrumbarr, on 04 August 2017 - 10:24 PM, said:

It has a couple of effects:

1) It makes it irrelevant in how good of a clan you are and gives the same rewards regardless of performance, so there is no incentive to improve.

 2) Better clans lose more, noone likes losing.

3) Playing against good clans all  the time is boring

4) Due to  the harsher environment now,  clans are forced to take the best setups to have a shot to win and have to tryhard.

5) Less income for better clans.

 

It basicly changed it from a fun, chill mode to a hardcore mode while beign rewarded less then before.

 

Again, replying for T6/T8 and SH rank within top 100-300 only

 

1) Roflstomping handicaped clans does also give no incentive to improve

2) which means they actually weren't "better", again roflstomping handicaped clans does not make you "better"

3) no, it is not, because you now know you win or lose not due to some unlucky random matchmaking

4) no they don't have to, we still have a good amount of laughter and relaxed sessions

5) the basic credit income is the same for all clans and if you use the highest available reserves you make plenty of credits

 

The one thing that made SH less enjoyable was the introduction of toxic tanks, like the defender and other premium tanks which subsequently increased the amount of premium ammunition used in battles.

Btw, the queue times are not longer as we still play the same 10-15 games per session as before the changes and the session length has not changed. 

 


Edited by Zhul87, 05 August 2017 - 08:05 AM.


brumbarr #17 Posted 05 August 2017 - 08:10 AM

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View Postjabster, on 05 August 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

 

Not played it myself and without trying to be rude you often see the argument that skillbased MM shouldn't be in randoms as there are other competitive modes for that. What you seem to be describing was a mode that means good clans get given easy wins and credits which doesn't exactly sound like the competitive mode I'd expect.

 

Good clans have no easier wins than other clans, there are jsut 2 clans fighting, and the best performer in the battle wins.  And no, it wasnt a competetive mode, thats why it was so popular, the competetive mode was CW and SH attacks, skirmishes where just chill battles with your clan, where there is no presure to win or lose. And  the better you where, the more you won, you where and above avg clan? You win 60%, you where a very good clan? You win about 80%, you where FAME? You won 90%? You where a horrible clan? You wan 30%. People got rewards based on how the performed.



jabster #18 Posted 05 August 2017 - 08:13 AM

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View Postbrumbarr, on 05 August 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

 

Good clans have no easier wins than other clans, there are jsut 2 clans fighting, and the best performer in the battle wins.  And no, it wasnt a competetive mode, thats why it was so popular, the competetive mode was CW and SH attacks, skirmishes where just chill battles with your clan, where there is no presure to win or lose. And  the better you where, the more you won, you where and above avg clan? You win 60%, you where a very good clan? You win about 80%, you where FAME? You won 90%? You where a horrible clan? You wan 30%. People got rewards based on how the performed.

 

Now you're confusing me with all the different modes :)



brumbarr #19 Posted 05 August 2017 - 08:20 AM

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View PostZhul87, on 05 August 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

 

Again, replying for T6/T8 and SH rank within top 100-300 only

 

1) Roflstomping handicaped clans does also give no incentive to improve

THe clans arent 90% bad clans and 10% good clans, there is a distribution of clans of all skill levels.  So if you get better, you can beat more clans, better WR and  more rewards. 

Also, ofcourse it incentives improving, you can only roflstomp when you have improved. Red clans arent gonna roflstom noone.

2) which means they actually weren't "better", again roflstomping handicaped clans does not make you "better"

Ofcourse it does, the more clans you beat, the better you are, the gamemode was never 90% red clans. 

3) no, it is not, because you now know you win or lose not due to some unlucky random matchmaking

Ah, this is the problem, you where to lazy to improve and try new things against good teams, when I was in a mediocre clan we beat top clans and it wasnt that rare.

4) no they don't have to, we still have a good amount of laughter and relaxed sessions

Well, then you are lucky, every clan I have  been in has played almost no SH anymore because noone had fun. There are even entire clans that are now gonne because of that.

5) the basic credit income is the same for all clans and if you use the highest available reserves you make plenty of credits

FACT: if you previously won 65%, and now win 50%, there is less boxes you get.

 

The one thing that made SH less enjoyable was the introduction of toxic tanks, like the defender and other premium tanks which subsequently increased the amount of premium ammunition used in battles.

Btw, the queue times are not longer as we still play the same 10-15 games per session as before the changes and the session length has not changed. 

THats because you are in an avg clan, and there are plenty of opponents, for above avg clans  a que time of 2 minutes isnt rare.

 

 


Edited by brumbarr, 05 August 2017 - 08:20 AM.


brumbarr #20 Posted 05 August 2017 - 08:22 AM

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View Postjabster, on 05 August 2017 - 08:13 AM, said:

 

Now you're confusing me with all the different modes :)

 

Randoms => single player uncompetetive.

Ranked => single player competetive.

Clan wars => team based competetive at certain hours  to earn gold

Skirmish = > team based uncompetetive 

SH attacks ( now advances) => team based competetive to earn boxes to make bonuses.

 






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