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The Archer might need some love in a future patch.

Archer Need Buff or not

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Poll: Please answer after reading the entire post (14 members have cast votes)

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The Archer needs a buff to the gun

  1. yes (The DPM) (1 vote [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  2. yes (General accuracy) (5 votes [35.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.71%

  3. yes (Depression/ Elevation / gun arc/ gun traverse) (1 vote [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  4. no (7 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

The Archer needs a buff to mobility

  1. yes (hp/t) (1 vote [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  2. yes (traverse) (1 vote [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  3. yes (both) (7 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  4. no (5 votes [35.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.71%

The Archer needs a buff to it's general survivability

  1. yes (armor) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. yes (Hp) (2 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  3. yes (Camo (5 votes [35.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.71%

  4. no (7 votes [50.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

The Archer needs a buff to it's view range

  1. yes (2 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  2. no (12 votes [85.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 85.71%

Vote Hide poll

chri105n #1 Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:11 PM

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Title says it all, i belive the archer needs a buff

 

base Evidence: according to vBAddict.net the archer averages a whopping 45.9 % win rate1. To put this into perspective, here are some win rates of tanks generally regarded as bad: M3 Lee at 47.1 %2, AMX 40 at 46.73 %3, SARL 42 at 46,39 %4 etc, DW2 at 47.4 %5. To be specific only 7 tanks6 in the game has a worse win rate than the Archer, and while all of these also needs some love, I'll now focus on why i think the Archer needs a buff.

 

Analysis7: I'll be comparing the Archer to all other non premium tier 5 TD's, except the new Chinese thing.

 

The gun, while having the second highest penetration of any tier 5 TD at 171mm, only beaten by the 88mm on the death toaster which has 194mm. However, the Archer suffers from the joined second worst aim time at 2.21 seconds along with the S35 using the 90mm and SU-85, the worst being the S35 using the 105 mm. Dispersion wise it's nothing special either at 0.35. Same goes for the soft stats, dun depression and shell velocity which both fall in the middle of the field. The DPM is, again, like almost every thing about this tank nothing special to write home about, at 1996.96 it falls right in the middle.

The does have the wides gun arc of any non-turreted tier 5 TD at 45 degrees in total (beating the S35 by 1).

 

Mobility wise the archer is a bit strange, for the sake of simplicity I'll use the reverse speed as the top speed, this makes the archer the, on paper, second slowest tier 5 TD, only beaten by the AT 2, same goes for the hp/t ratio which again is the second worst of any tier 5 TD, again being beaten by the AT 2. However the Archer has an ace up it's sleeve as it has by far the best Terrain resistances of any tier 5 TD, it also has the best track traverse on medium terrain out of the tier 5 TD's. We'll get to the strange play style later.

 

Looking at the survivability of the archer it becomes clear that this is not it's best aspect either, boasting, along most of the tier 5 TD's (except the Stug 3 and the AT 2) no real protection from equal and even a good amount of lower tier guns. Hp wise it has the second best along with the T67 and the Wolverine. However it also has the lowest track and engine health of any tier 5 TD's. Moving on to camouflage8 it again is placed in the lower end. 4th lowest to be specific. While camo allegedly is based upon the size of a tank, the S35 which i do believe we all can agree is either just as big or bigger9 10, has a better camo value than the Archer. The view range of the archer is however good for a tier 5 TD at 360m it has the second highest of any tier 5 TD.

 

The reverse play style. While it is a fun gimmick and it makes the tank different, it only adds insult to injury. The fact the you have to turn the entire tank around before aiming, and the have to aim a lot longer than most of the other tier 5 TD's only to be rewarded with mediocre accuracy, depression and DPM. Even when you get to shoot at tanks slowly driving towards you there are still better alternatives (Death Toaster and 105mm S35 in a bad matchup (tier 7), and the T67, Wolverine and AT 2 in a good matchup (tier 5))

 

Here are the sources that support my claims. This is to prove I'm not just using anecdotal evidence which is useless when discussing the general viability of any given tank.

 

sources

  1. http://www.vbaddict.net/tankstats/great_britain/td/archer-52
  2. http://www.vbaddict.net/tankstats/usa/medium/m3_lee-12
  3. http://www.vbaddict.net/tankstats/france/light/amx_40-11
  4. http://www.vbaddict.net/tankstats/france/medium/sarl_42-58
  5. http://www.vbaddict.net/tankstats/germany/heavy/durchbruchswagen_2-52
  6. http://www.vbaddict.net/statistics.php?tier=0&tanktype=0&nation=0&premium=0&modeid=0&team=0&battles=1000&groupby=0&fieldname=won_lost_ratio&server=
  7. https://tanks.gg/compare/archer?t=s35-ca~stug-iii-g~t67~su-85~at-2~ikv-103~pzsfl-ivc~wolverine
  8. http://www.wotinfo.net/en/camouflage?country=all&vehicletype=td&tier=5&showLines=30&_showPremium=on&sort=stationary_desc
  9. https://tanks.gg/tank/s35-ca/model
  10. https://tanks.gg/tank/archer/model

 

Thank you for reading and let's have a civil debate about the topic at hand.

I apologize for any strange wording as English is not my first language and I can't be bothered to proof read it.


Edited by chri105n, 13 August 2017 - 09:15 AM.


Spurtung #2 Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:14 PM

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It just needs to move, everything else is quite fine.

chri105n #3 Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:16 PM

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TLDR:

 

The Archers are either mediocre or bad, with the exception of good penetration, view range and amazing track traverse on medium terrain. This, combined with a gimmicky play style, has resulted in the Archer having the 7th lowest win rate in the game.



lafeel #4 Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:30 PM

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No, it does not. None of those things. /thread



chri105n #5 Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:35 PM

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View Postlafeel, on 12 August 2017 - 04:30 PM, said:

No, it does not. None of those things. /thread

 

Very helpful

PowJay #6 Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:48 PM

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Well, I can't really say. If I was to change two things, I would make it so that the gun faces backwards as you drive forwards- ergo you don't have to reverse left and right to steer. The only other thing I would like to change is a buff to the speed.


 

As I do so well in it, it is hard for me to judge otherwise.

 



Chuwt #7 Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:01 PM

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The whole point of the archer is really that it is a backwards glass cannon, so in many ways I think you just have to put up with that.
Probably the biggest weakness of the whole British lines is the guns...WoT is obsessed with size, and ignores the fact that the British guns (in their period, and size for size) were notably superior to most others in the AT role, even though they were often weak in other aspects (for example HE). Thus the British 17lb should be much better than the American 76 or the Russian 76.2 in all AP respects, and this is not really reflected in the game.

 



PowJay #8 Posted 12 August 2017 - 06:21 PM

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View PostChuwt, on 12 August 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

The whole point of the archer is really that it is a backwards glass cannon, so in many ways I think you just have to put up with that.
Probably the biggest weakness of the whole British lines is the guns...WoT is obsessed with size, and ignores the fact that the British guns (in their period, and size for size) were notably superior to most others in the AT role, even though they were often weak in other aspects (for example HE). Thus the British 17lb should be much better than the American 76 or the Russian 76.2 in all AP respects, and this is not really reflected in the game.

 

 

I do indeed take the point that it is a glass cannon, but in real life it would have travelled with the gun pointing toward the rear and moved into position backwards. Now, I can reverse that process to satisfy WoT design, but travelling backwards is a pain in the backside every time you stop. If you are pressing D to go left and come to a sudden stop, then you start turning right. If you have to stop because, say, an ally drives across in front of you, the whole TD tries to turn to bring the gun to bear.

 

I have got used to it- as my stats suggest- but it can be a nightmare getting anywhere to use that awesome gun.


Edited by PowJay, 12 August 2017 - 07:50 PM.


lafeel #9 Posted 13 August 2017 - 02:19 AM

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View Postchri105n, on 12 August 2017 - 04:35 PM, said:

 

Very helpful

 

It's got one of, if not the best guns of tier 5 so there's no buff needed there.

 

The mobility is just fine as long as you drive backwards everywhere. The Archer was this way historically, so you can take your suggestion of a buff here and shove it up your *edited*

 

It's a open top td, it's armor is going to be useless anyway, thankfully it's camo is excellent, no buff needed here.

 

And as for the view range, that is perfectly fine for a tier 5 td.

 

Helpfull enough for you now?



chri105n #10 Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:38 AM

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View Postlafeel, on 13 August 2017 - 01:19 AM, said:

 

It's got one of, if not the best guns of tier 5 so there's no buff needed there.

 

The mobility is just fine as long as you drive backwards everywhere. The Archer was this way historically, so you can take your suggestion of a buff here and shove it up your *edited*

 

It's a open top td, it's armor is going to be useless anyway, thankfully it's camo is excellent, no buff needed here.

 

And as for the view range, that is perfectly fine for a tier 5 td.

 

Helpfull enough for you now?

 

now you just sound like you didn't even read what I originally posted...

ApocalypseSquad #11 Posted 13 August 2017 - 08:45 AM

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Loved mine and kept it.  The reverse play style can be exploited and is a significant plus.

Hedgehog1963 #12 Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:20 AM

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OP is in for a world of hurt if he thinks Archer is bad.  My advice is to leave that branch  of the tech tree right about now.  If you buy Challenger you will cry IRL.



chri105n #13 Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:29 AM

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View PostHedgehog1963, on 13 August 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

OP is in for a world of hurt if he thinks Archer is bad.  My advice is to leave that branch  of the tech tree right about now.  If you buy Challenger you will cry IRL.

 

I said nothing about my opinion. Look at the data and tell me if that is balanced tank and please don't just spout anecdotal evidence.

jabster #14 Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:32 AM

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View Postchri105n, on 13 August 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

 

I said nothing about my opinion. Look at the data and tell me if that is balanced tank and please don't just spout anecdotal evidence.

 

The problem is that VBAddict isn't the best place to take data from as it's based on games it knows about from its own users. If you have a look at the tank curves over at WoT News the win-rate, relative to a player's own win-rate, paints a different picture.

chri105n #15 Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:34 AM

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View Postjabster, on 13 August 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

 

The problem is that VBAddict isn't the best place to take data from as it's based on games it knows about from its own users. If you have a look at the tank curves over at WoT News the win-rate, relative to a player's own win-rate, paints a different picture.

 

source?



jabster #16 Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:35 AM

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View Postchri105n, on 13 August 2017 - 08:34 AM, said:

 

source?

 

WoT News.

Hedgehog1963 #17 Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:40 AM

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View Postchri105n, on 13 August 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

 

I said nothing about my opinion. Look at the data and tell me if that is balanced tank and please don't just spout anecdotal evidence.

 

Seems like you've already made your mind up...  'Bye...

Bearclaw #18 Posted 13 August 2017 - 10:31 AM

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It dosen't feel right to judge a low tier tank by it's winrate, most people probably don't have 100% crew and only play the tank until the grind is finished.

 

It's probably around a year ago since I played it so it's not so fresh in my memory but looking at my stats it seemed to perform quite well, having higher winrate than my average. It has good dpm and great camo which is all you need to have good games at low tier.

 

The weak tanks in that line is the Challenger and the Conway and they will both recieve buffs in the near future







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