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Tier 7 TD's need looking at.


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Search_Warrant #1 Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:11 PM

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Can we stop with the 90mm trashcannons at tier 7? these "TD's" face tier 9. you really think a tier 9 cares if it gets hit by a 240 alpha gun? generally with poor dpm and garbage platforms?

 

Meanwhile my most played tank happens to be the SU-152. guess why DING DING DING! it gets a REAL tank destroyer gun! on a DECENT platform. meanwhile my M56 Scorpion sits in my hanger collecting dust becuase no matter how good the pen is. the DPM/platform/damage is utter garbage. you ether give a poor platform a good gun or a great platform a mediocre gun. most tier 7 TD's have both negatives! this needs fixing.

 

i mean cmon SU-100 gets 390 at tier 6 for crying out loud. with 175 pen! thats allot for a tier 6! thats better than some tier 7 TD pen! (looking at you challanger). but then we have a predicament.... 240 alpha to a tier 5 (they actually meet them i think...i think..) thats allot of HP gone, even for a heavy tank at that tier. but 240 to a tier 8-9 is nothing at all.

 

Tier 7 TD's are in a real bad spot. undergunned and poor platforms, buff them and then tier 5 suffers, we have T29 with 320 alpha tho? why cant tier 7 TD's get that kind of alpha? whats the point of a TD's at this tier again? fix it WG.


Edited by Search_Warrant, 14 August 2017 - 09:13 PM.


Aim_Away_From_Face #2 Posted 14 August 2017 - 09:22 PM

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There are plenty of other elements which make this happen, armour, mobility, etc. I really don't see an ything much wrong with tier7 TD's except for a few (....ok, Challenger, it sucks in every respect except REAR turret armour....wtf is that?!).

However, come next patch tier 7 will be just as broken as tier 6 and tier 8 with the chinese TD's; the T-34-2G FT gets that classic 122mm, 390 alpha gun but for some random reason gets 192 pen instead of the 175 that every other one gets.......literally no reason except, well, err.......reasons.

That without even getting into the next horribly overpowered t8 premium coming with them. That thing is so overpowered it just laughs at Chryslers. 

 

Until tier 8 is fixed and all the 34-85M bots get lost to fix t6, leave t7 alone.



FluffyRedFox #3 Posted 14 August 2017 - 11:32 PM

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No not really.

Ikv needs a few buffs here and there because it has the gun handling of the scrapped autoloading gun

Scorpion needs a similar buff

Challenger is getting reworked in 9.21

Other than that I feel that tier 7 TDs are just in the right place, you're just cherry picking a few of the stinkers.



Steeleye_Spam #4 Posted 15 August 2017 - 10:09 AM

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The su 100m is a fine assault gun, as is the jagdpanther. Even the AT isn't bad. I've found the t7 Tds to run the same as previous tiers - there are some good ones, some OK ones and some bad ones (sturer, I'm looking at you).

 



Balc0ra #5 Posted 15 August 2017 - 10:57 AM

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Just like tier 8 meds are crap tier for tier. Most tier 7 TD's are crap tier for tier overall vs the rest on their lines. Challenger and the IKEA TD being among them. As the tier 7 Challenger is a better scout then a TD atm.

 

But... The tier 7 Challenger is getting a bigger gun soon. As WG realized that the 17 prd with 171 pen is useless unless he is top tier. And they decided to toss a 32 pdr AT gun his way, along with a rof and pen puff for it, as the 32 pdr is taking over for the 20 pdr on the high tier HT's to, and 214 pen is not cutting it. As they are removing the 20 pdr from the HT's on super test. And yes the 32 pdr is still not much better then a 90mm... as it's a 94mm. But still better a 17 pdr that is more or less a 76mm in terms of overmatching. As you need higher then 90mm for the UDES. So 94mm will work fine.

 

And they have plans for the other tier 7 TD's among others. But UK tanks is the focus for the current Super test. So who knows.

 

 


Edited by Balc0ra, 15 August 2017 - 10:58 AM.


Derethim #6 Posted 15 August 2017 - 10:59 AM

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The whole T7 needs looking-at.

The Chi-Ri is terribad, with no armor or speed or camo or anything, except a good gun with terrible penetration values even with gold ammo.

AMX M4 is not capable of bouncing HE shells - and it's a heavy.

The Black Prince is not that terrible, but has the worst penetration of all heavies - 171, and it meets T9 tanks..

IS-2 could use more engine power, to make use of that better speed...

etc.

 



CaptainThunderWalker #7 Posted 15 August 2017 - 11:40 AM

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Let's put it like this: The T-29 is a perfectly balanced Tier VII tank.

Everything else just needs to be brought on par with it.

 

A few months ago I would say that nerfing the T-29 was a better idea, but since the Defender came out I do not think that is a good idea anymore.



TungstenHitman #8 Posted 15 August 2017 - 11:50 AM

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Tier7 is somewhat a victim of mm being sandwiched between such dramatically contrasting tiers and has always been a bit of dead duck, not just for TDs but for all classes. The problem is, it can see tier 5 which has much weaker hp figures, pen of around 100 only and the strongest armour that anything around 150 pen can punch through so 175pen guns with huge alpha vs tier5 is actually devastating combined with the large hp and beefed up armour on a tier7 that a tier5 simply would not be able to compete against if it were any stronger.. so tier 7 can't really get any stronger in the current +-2 tier mm system but on the flip side of that, most tier7 tanks are themselves a victim to the power creep and blatantly OP tanks of tier8 and they will also see even more power tier9 tanks but not many tier9 of course since they are limited per battle but most tier7 will be completely outgunned, out muscled and out hp pooled but their higher tier bully boys.

 

There are however, some really outstanding tier7 tanks that can probably still compete as bottom tier even now. In terms of TDs I have JagdPanther which is imo, the best non-premium tier7 TD in the game with a 105cal boasting 200 standard pen and 320 alpha along with a very sharp 1.6 aim time and .32 accuracy. It's a fairly mobile tank, traverses well, ok gun arch so it gets around the map nicely and with the gun stats it can quickly adjust and engage the enemy efficiently when encountered while I've found the sloped front plate is surprisingly bouncy beyond the armour value would suggest.. great looking TD which also helps and also a tank that ACTUALLY existed unlike some handkerchief sketched "blueprints" we see in the game.

 

I found the lkv 90 to be a pretty decent tier7 TD with 210 pen as standard but was let down by the sluggish aim time and dodgy gun dispersion but don't forget the E25 is one of the most lethal if not blatantly OP tier7 TD with ONLY 150 pen though I suspect many users like run it almost full of gold shells and with only 150 pen standard AP why the f*** not lol!



CaptainThunderWalker #9 Posted 15 August 2017 - 12:30 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 15 August 2017 - 11:50 AM, said:

Tier7 is somewhat a victim of mm being sandwiched between such dramatically contrasting tiers and has always been a bit of dead duck, not just for TDs but for all classes. The problem is, it can see tier 5 which has much weaker hp figures, pen of around 100 only and the strongest armour that anything around 150 pen can punch through so 175pen guns with huge alpha vs tier5 is actually devastating combined with the large hp and beefed up armour on a tier7 that a tier5 simply would not be able to compete against if it were any stronger.. so tier 7 can't really get any stronger in the current +-2 tier mm system but on the flip side of that, most tier7 tanks are themselves a victim to the power creep and blatantly OP tanks of tier8 and they will also see even more power tier9 tanks but not many tier9 of course since they are limited per battle but most tier7 will be completely outgunned, out muscled and out hp pooled but their higher tier bully boys.

 

There are however, some really outstanding tier7 tanks that can probably still compete as bottom tier even now. In terms of TDs I have JagdPanther which is imo, the best non-premium tier7 TD in the game with a 105cal boasting 200 standard pen and 320 alpha along with a very sharp 1.6 aim time and .32 accuracy. It's a fairly mobile tank, traverses well, ok gun arch so it gets around the map nicely and with the gun stats it can quickly adjust and engage the enemy efficiently when encountered while I've found the sloped front plate is surprisingly bouncy beyond the armour value would suggest.. great looking TD which also helps and also a tank that ACTUALLY existed unlike some handkerchief sketched "blueprints" we see in the game.

 

I found the lkv 90 to be a pretty decent tier7 TD with 210 pen as standard but was let down by the sluggish aim time and dodgy gun dispersion but don't forget the E25 is one of the most lethal if not blatantly OP tier7 TD with ONLY 150 pen though I suspect many users like run it almost full of gold shells and with only 150 pen standard AP why the f*** not lol!

 

This is why I always said the HP gaps between tiers needs to be reduced.

 

HP should be a set formula of a base value + X HP / tonnage.

Base value could be X HP/tier too, or even Base value + X HP / tier + X HP/tonnage.

 

 

I'd assume the Base Value is 300,  100 HP/ Tier and 10 HP/ton for the next few examples.

Tier IV light tanks would end up with about 800 HP. Matilda would hit 1000 HP I think, and the Cromwell would have about 1200. Compare 370 vs 750 and 1000 vs 1200 - that's a much smaller difference. For things like teh Ke-Ho that's noticeable too.

An other obvious problem would be a vehicle like the O-I Exp and its 100-ton weight, which would lead to something of 1800 HP, which is truly massive for a Tier V tank. The T29 - a HT two tiers higher, would have actually less HP than the O-I Exp, with 1600ish. But it's quite close.

 

This also is an indirect nerf to premium tanks; they suddenly have all less HP than their non-premium counterparts and if not Wargaming has the chance to completely rebalance the biggest offenders of game balance (especially since tech trees probably would get overhauled as well).

 


Edited by CaptainThunderWalker, 15 August 2017 - 12:31 PM.


TungstenHitman #10 Posted 15 August 2017 - 12:41 PM

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View PostCaptainThunderWalker, on 15 August 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

 

This is why I always said the HP gaps between tiers needs to be reduced.

 

HP should be a set formula of a base value + X HP / tonnage.

Base value could be X HP/tier too, or even Base value + X HP / tier + X HP/tonnage.

 

 

I'd assume the Base Value is 300,  100 HP/ Tier and 10 HP/ton for the next few examples.

Tier IV light tanks would end up with about 800 HP. Matilda would hit 1000 HP I think, and the Cromwell would have about 1200. Compare 370 vs 750 and 1000 vs 1200 - that's a much smaller difference. For things like teh Ke-Ho that's noticeable too.

An other obvious problem would be a vehicle like the O-I Exp and its 100-ton weight, which would lead to something of 1800 HP, which is truly massive for a Tier V tank. The T29 - a HT two tiers higher, would have actually less HP than the O-I Exp, with 1600ish. But it's quite close.

 

This also is an indirect nerf to premium tanks; they suddenly have all less HP than their non-premium counterparts and if not Wargaming has the chance to completely rebalance the biggest offenders of game balance (especially since tech trees probably would get overhauled as well).

 

 

That's possibly a fairer hp distribution, I think there's a fairly simple formula that could be used alongside the weight as a measuring stick for HP, it would involve other elements like mobility and armour values. For example the tier5 O-l you make reference too is 100 tons? Then maybe if WG didn't have it move like a bloody T34 medium then would be somewhat more sensible.. actually that entire Jap heavy line from tier5 onward is pure cancer.. needs to be not nerfed, not adjusted.. just DELETED from the game.  

CaptainThunderWalker #11 Posted 15 August 2017 - 12:52 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 15 August 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

 

That's possibly a fairer hp distribution, I think there's a fairly simple formula that could be used alongside the weight as a measuring stick for HP, it would involve other elements like mobility and armour values. For example the tier5 O-l you make reference too is 100 tons? Then maybe if WG didn't have it move like a bloody T34 medium then would be somewhat more sensible.. actually that entire Jap heavy line from tier5 onward is pure cancer.. needs to be not nerfed, not adjusted.. just DELETED from the game.  

That would be too complicated. This formula is incredibly simple.Just weight + tier + base value. It can't be much more simple than that (well, you can skip out the tier multiplier and increase the base value instead).

 

However, I would probably put these Japanese heavies at higher tiers than they currently are. 1800 HP at Tier V is just too much, and the O-I Exp needs its historical armanament anyway (so Tier VII is much more adequate, and maybe even Tier VIII). The O-I would end up a tier above it, so it'd be not too unlikely we are actually talking about shunting these two tanks three tiers up, with the Type 5 Heavy above it at Tier X.

 

And no, the Japanese tanks are not the problem. The problem with Japanese Heavies is that they put emphasis on how bad the map design is, because these vehicles tend to become stronger the worse the map is.

They are balanced on the good maps, like Prokhorovka, Malinovka and even Redshire and Steppes if we disregard their brawling corners.


Edited by CaptainThunderWalker, 15 August 2017 - 12:58 PM.


Search_Warrant #12 Posted 15 August 2017 - 03:45 PM

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View PostCaptainThunderWalker, on 15 August 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

 

This is why I always said the HP gaps between tiers needs to be reduced.

 

HP should be a set formula of a base value + X HP / tonnage.

Base value could be X HP/tier too, or even Base value + X HP / tier + X HP/tonnage.

 

 

I'd assume the Base Value is 300,  100 HP/ Tier and 10 HP/ton for the next few examples.

Tier IV light tanks would end up with about 800 HP. Matilda would hit 1000 HP I think, and the Cromwell would have about 1200. Compare 370 vs 750 and 1000 vs 1200 - that's a much smaller difference. For things like teh Ke-Ho that's noticeable too.

An other obvious problem would be a vehicle like the O-I Exp and its 100-ton weight, which would lead to something of 1800 HP, which is truly massive for a Tier V tank. The T29 - a HT two tiers higher, would have actually less HP than the O-I Exp, with 1600ish. But it's quite close.

 

This also is an indirect nerf to premium tanks; they suddenly have all less HP than their non-premium counterparts and if not Wargaming has the chance to completely rebalance the biggest offenders of game balance (especially since tech trees probably would get overhauled as well).

 

 

Not sure... most lightly armored tanks with bearly any armor would sufer greatly with a sudden hp reduction, yet they usualy need it the most (but not the RHM/WT's). M56 Scorpion only has 1mm armor all over and weighs exactly 7,144kg  so its next to nothing.

XxKuzkina_MatxX #13 Posted 15 August 2017 - 04:50 PM

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Played the SU-100 M1 today for the first time, awesome gun on a fast platform. If you buff this thing in an way it'll become better than the E25 :)

Aim_Away_From_Face #14 Posted 15 August 2017 - 05:59 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 15 August 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

 

Not sure... most lightly armored tanks with bearly any armor would sufer greatly with a sudden hp reduction, yet they usualy need it the most (but not the RHM/WT's). M56 Scorpion only has 1mm armor all over and weighs exactly 7,144kg  so its next to nothing.

 

True but the M56 Scorpion is an anomaly, it did exist (which is quite rare for WoT these days) but I can assure you it did NOT have 1mm of armour. Your car, your actual car which you have right now has more than that and with 1950's manufacturing it would impossible for it to even have its engine and gun mounted let alone drive around with them. I've never understood why they made that TD like that in the game. 

Search_Warrant #15 Posted 15 August 2017 - 06:28 PM

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View PostXxKuzkina_MatxX, on 15 August 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

Played the SU-100 M1 today for the first time, awesome gun on a fast platform. If you buff this thing in an way it'll become better than the E25 :)

 

I meant mainly the poor platforms with 90mm guns.

Edited by Search_Warrant, 15 August 2017 - 06:28 PM.


Folau #16 Posted 15 August 2017 - 07:04 PM

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T7 is generally a terrible tier - it's usually where the bad tanks of a tree are stuck to make some money.

 

Most of the mediums are terrible, same with TDs, though a couple of the heavies are completely awful.



Search_Warrant #17 Posted 15 August 2017 - 07:10 PM

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View PostFolau, on 15 August 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

T7 is generally a terrible tier - it's usually where the bad tanks of a tree are stuck to make some money.

 

Most of the mediums are terrible, same with TDs, though a couple of the heavies are completely awful.

 

Pretty much. only fun tanks are usualy the teir 7 LT's because at least they get mobility. only tanks i play at 7 are usualy my Type62/13 57GF

Edited by Search_Warrant, 15 August 2017 - 07:10 PM.


roachex #18 Posted 15 August 2017 - 08:48 PM

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I would say that tier 7 has only few tanks which could be considered good as bottom tier. But as a top tier, it is quite balanced. There are tanks with extremes (like previously mentioned StEmil), but if you get hang on it, they are in general decent. 

 

 



XxKuzkina_MatxX #19 Posted 15 August 2017 - 09:20 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 15 August 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

 

I meant mainly the poor platforms with 90mm guns.

 

I am sorry i didn't notice that but the 100mm on the SU does 250 alpha which is pretty close to the 90mm.

CaptainThunderWalker #20 Posted 15 August 2017 - 10:51 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 15 August 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

 

Not sure... most lightly armored tanks with bearly any armor would sufer greatly with a sudden hp reduction, yet they usualy need it the most (but not the RHM/WT's). M56 Scorpion only has 1mm armor all over and weighs exactly 7,144kg  so its next to nothing.

 

Scorpion would have 300 + 700 + 70 = 1070 HP.

I don't think any tank that isn't Tier X would lose HP with the numbers I proposed.

Wait, there's the Jagdtiger. It has 2100 HP, and this formula would put it at 1900-ish.


Edited by CaptainThunderWalker, 15 August 2017 - 10:53 PM.





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