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Make the Tiger a TD


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HeinrichFuhrmann #1 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:24 AM

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I just played a match with my Tiger 1.

I already know that the Tiger 1 is more of a long range sniper, and not like the Stalinium russian tanks.

But then I lost against a T71 by HIT TRADING. He wasn't flanking me, he wasn't circling me, he wasn't dodging me.

He just shot at me and I shot at him, with just a short break for him to reload. (Of course I couldn't use that opportunity to attack him. It's a [edited]tiger, too slow to do anything.)

 

Next I went to TANKS.GG and looked at the stats for Tiger 1 and T71 to compare the two.

What I found out was that the Tiger needs about 28 seconds to kill the T71

The T71 needs about 38 seconds to destroy the tiger.

 

At first I was suprised how I could lose. But then I realized that [edited]had time to reload. So the 19 seconds he takes to reload don't count, making him kill the Tiger in 19 seconds.

 

What the [edited]WG? We have a LIGHT tank, defeat a "heavy" tank in a frontal fight. Because that thing penetrates the front armor of a tiger with every shot. The Tiger is hard to miss too.

 

But what if he couldn't drive back into cover and reload? Well... then that [edited]is close enough to speed tank the tiger, driving around him until he reloaded. The tiger has such an awful turret traverse, it's no problem.

 

So my question is: Why is the Tiger even considered a heavy tank? His hitpoints don't help, as we see in the example above. Light tanks can easily out dpm him.

His armor, even when angled never reaches 150 mm, unless you show so much of your side or front that it will become an even juicier target. So bouncing shots is out of the question. What we are left with is a TD with 1500 Hp. So why not just make that thing a TD? All he has is his gun and he must engange on long range too.

 

At least that way people would stop expecting me to do heavy tank stuff instead of camping bushes...

 

I know the tiger isn't an unplayably bad tank. I had a few good rounds with it, once I realized how to drive it. But he is certainly not a heavy tank.



Toni112007 #2 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:28 AM

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When top tier you can go in close combat but I would advise sidescraping whenever possible.

Jigabachi #3 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:30 AM

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Hint: You aren't forced to brawl in a tank only because he carries around the heavy tank symbol above it...

HeinrichFuhrmann #4 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:31 AM

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You can go in close Combat with Panzer III J too when you are top tier. Only that the Panzer III J is a medium that plays more like a light tank.

DracheimFlug #5 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:31 AM

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The Tiger I is considered a heavy tank because that was how it was conceived and how it was used until the Germans were on the defensive. Even on the defensive it was still used as a heavy in counter-offensives.

 

The T71 is a tank from a decade later. Even though it is a light, it still has serious firepower.



HeinrichFuhrmann #6 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:32 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 16 August 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Hint: You aren't forced to brawl in a tank only because he carries around the heavy tank symbol above it...

 

Sure I am not. But just attach that TD-Triangle to the tank and everybody know what to expect from a Tiger.

Aikl #7 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:37 AM

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Most, if not all, heavy tanks are suspectible to lights. That's kind of the point. He gives away armor and hitpoints for his speed. You trade mobility for armor (well, at least the turret front) and firepower. T71 is arguably quite a strong T7 anyway, e.g. featuring better firepower than the T8 Batchat 12t.

 

A traditional trick is to load HE against a T71. On a Tiger, the HE damage is so mediocre it doesn't really matter, though - it will still take four shells to kill a full-HP T71 (unless you get a bit over average rolls with HE or light it on fire). Besides, unless you count nine seconds of aiming, you need about 19s to reload three times.

 

View PostHeinrichFuhrmann, on 16 August 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

View PostJigabachi, on 16 August 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Hint: You aren't forced to brawl in a tank only because he carries around the heavy tank symbol above it...

 

Sure I am not. But just attach that TD-Triangle to the tank and everybody know what to expect from a Tiger.

 

While there is room for 'subclasses' in WoT, there's no need to designate them. If people are unable to understand that the Tiger is crap at frontline brawling after two hundred games, they are not likely to understand what that triangle even means. As for those who understand it, the triangle is just an excuse for camping base in tanks that are better used at the frontlines. The last thing we need is to give people more reasons to camp. The existing TDs are bad enough as it is, any feature of a TD is seemingly used for an excuse to be a base bush rapist camper. The Tiger is arguably used best as fire support, which does not mean 'waiting for the enemy'.

 

The real solution to the Tiger problem is rebalancing it into a T6 heavy in some way.  Tiger 2 is a viable T7 with the long 88 (and maybe short 105). The real problem is finding a fantasy tank for T8, which for a long period of time was something WG wasn't too keen on doing. The E50M, being a fantasy variant of a concept design, was supposedly far from ideal. Nowadays you can just do a E75 Ausf.A/Concept and call it a day.


Edited by Aikl, 16 August 2017 - 09:51 AM.


HeinrichFuhrmann #8 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:47 AM

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View PostAikl, on 16 August 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Most, if not all, heavy tanks are suspectible to lights. That's kind of the point. He gives away armor and hitpoints for his speed. You trade mobility for armor (well, at least the turret front) and firepower. T71 is arguably quite a strong T7 anyway, e.g. featuring better firepower than the T8 Batchat 12t.

 

A traditional trick is to load HE against a T71. On a Tiger, the HE damage is so mediocre it doesn't really matter, though - it will still take four shells to kill a full-HP T71 (unless you get a bit over average rolls with HE or light it on fire). Besides, unless you count nine seconds of aiming, you need about 19s to reload three times.

 

Why three times? I may have made a mistake in my calculations. I am not ruling that out, but Tanks.gg says the T71 has
150 average damage.
That means 10 hits to kill the tiger.
He has 6 shots per clip and shoots.

1. shot after 0 seconds

2. shot after 2 seconds

3. shot after 4 seconds

4. shot after 6 seconds

5. shot after 8 seconds

6. shot after 10 seconds

Then he reloads, so (when in cover for reloading)

7. shot after 29 seconds (10 seconds)

8. shot after 31 seconds (12 seconds)

9. shot after 33 seconds (14 seconds)

10. shot after 35 seconds. (16 seconds)
11. shot after 37 seconds (18 seconds)

 

The eleventh shot is in case he rolled low and needs one extra hit. And he'd still have one shot in the magazine.



TungstenHitman #9 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:56 AM

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View PostJigabachi, on 16 August 2017 - 08:30 AM, said:

Hint: You aren't forced to brawl in a tank only because he carries around the heavy tank symbol above it...

 

Nice sentiment and I totally agree but unfortunately there are an awful lot of players(typically stupids) that stereotype tanks by their class symbol during a battle and give other players a hard time about not doing what that tank of class typically does whatever that tank class is.. light tanks and heavy tanks get a particularly hard time in this game should they try anything outside of what many players would come to expect their role to be.

In truth, in reality, ALL tanks with superior accuracy and range want to keep the fight at as far a distance as their guns reliably allow. The best tank and armour is the one that doesn't get hit and so, just like in WW2, the Tiger, while being a heavy tank and having decent armour the time it came into production, was more noted for it's excellent 88 and long range capabilities which offered tremendous accuracy, velocity and penetration at much greater distances than the Soviet and Allied offerings so where possible, the Tiger would obviously engage the target at long ranges which was the safest choice where there was little risk to the tank itself, don't forget it would only take a strike on the gun barrel or getting tracked to make this tank a useless like any tank so why wouldn't you "camp" at long range.. Don't forget the 88 was derived from an anti-aircraft gun that had to accurately shoot at aircraft incredibly high up so when it came to shooting tanks.. must have been a nightmare to face. 

This is true even in modern battles all the way up to the Gulf War, the Abrams was several generations and technologically superior to the old junky Iraqi tanks in every way yet what they used was stealth and their superior range to kill the Iraqi tanks where possible.. again, better range, better tank, less risk, why brawl or take shots when you don't need to. In the game of course, heavy tank tactics is often about face brawling, face hugging, side scrapping and braking through enemy lines allowing other classes of tanks to support and keep these heavies alive but not all heavies are good at that



Aikl #10 Posted 16 August 2017 - 09:57 AM

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View PostHeinrichFuhrmann, on 16 August 2017 - 08:47 AM, said:

 

Spoiler

 

 

T71 math is correct, though when you start shooting at the T71 you have the first shell loaded already. Of course you're unlikely to outshoot him if you stay in the open while he gets into cover to reload. I get that it's not always an option to get the heck out of dodge, but being alone to begin with is a bad idea.

 

HE remains the best way to deal with lights that think you're an easy prey (and a nice little ram to boot). Many might think twice to trade if they even see that you shoot HE. 

 

A neat trick even with the Tiger is to jerk the tank around a bit. Turning, driving forwards and backwards as well as baiting shots with your side are all viable options.



HeinrichFuhrmann #11 Posted 16 August 2017 - 10:05 AM

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View PostAikl, on 16 August 2017 - 09:57 AM, said:

 

T71 math is correct, though when you start shooting at the T71 you have the first shell loaded already. Of course you're unlikely to outshoot him if you stay in the open while he gets into cover to reload. I get that it's not always an option to get the heck out of dodge, but being alone to begin with is a bad idea.

 

HE remains the best way to deal with lights that think you're an easy prey (and a nice little ram to boot). Many might think twice to trade if they even see that you shoot HE. 

 

A neat trick even with the Tiger is to jerk the tank around a bit. Turning, driving forwards and backwards as well as baiting shots with your side are all viable options.

That's some useful advice and I will try it out.

But shooting first is seldom an option since I am a big slow heavy and he is a stealthy light tank. It's more likely he spots me first, gets in position, aims and shoots an accurate shot first, while I still have to aim.

Finding cover with a big and slow Tiger is rarely an option. From my experience you either are in position or you are not. When you are pushing forward, like a heavy usually (not always) should, it's likely he gets the drop on you. And in that case you are as easy prey to the T71 as a light tank. Propably even easier because you can't dodge or reach cover.



Argedeava #12 Posted 16 August 2017 - 10:12 AM

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They should strip the armour to 5 mm all arround, reduce weight accordingly and it will be a better tank!

Sir_Bad #13 Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:00 PM

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The Tiger is one of the two strongest T7 heavy tanks, the other being the T-29. It has unholy DPM, enough armor to bounce low tier and even some same tier opponents, enough speed to comfortably get around, nice all around gunstats, all while having as much HP as an IS-3 on Tier 7.

 

If you can't make this work, it is not the tanks fault, but yours. The Tiger can be played agressively in most matchups, as long as you don't expect to bounce T8 and T9 shells on the regular. Sidescraping is the key here.

 

But seriously, I think is a case of "I heard ze Tiger was ze Uberpanzer, so why can't I pwn with it?" The Tiger plays differently from most heavies. You have to rely more on your firepower to scare away enemies, rather than on your armor to just bounce them. Once you learn that, the tank is very good.



commer #14 Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:15 PM

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View PostSir_Bad, on 16 August 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

The Tiger is one of the two strongest T7 heavy tanks, the other being the T-29. It has unholy DPM, enough armor to bounce low tier and even some same tier opponents, enough speed to comfortably get around, nice all around gunstats, all while having as much HP as an IS-3 on Tier 7.

 

If you can't make this work, it is not the tanks fault, but yours. The Tiger can be played agressively in most matchups, as long as you don't expect to bounce T8 and T9 shells on the regular. Sidescraping is the key here.

 

But seriously, I think is a case of "I heard ze Tiger was ze Uberpanzer, so why can't I pwn with it?" The Tiger plays differently from most heavies. You have to rely more on your firepower to scare away enemies, rather than on your armor to just bounce them. Once you learn that, the tank is very good.

 

This. There are many heavies that don't have retarded armor. People should l2p before they complain. 

Alex_Connor #15 Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:18 PM

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Tiger needs to be on tier 6 with increased armor, german armor quality was better than allied (at least mid-war, when they were building Tigers), unlike the US or USSR they used face-hardened armor with the result that the 76mm M1A1 with it's nominal 128mm of armor pen (tested against US armor plate) proved almost incapable of engaging the Tiger I frontally despite the Tiger having a "mere" 100mm of vertical armor.

 

On tier 6 with armor equivalent to about 120 or 125mm you'd at least have a pretty tanky vehicle bearing some resemblance to the real Tiger.

 

The tier 7 tech tree Tiger is an absolute joke with it's paper thin armor that doesn't even work as top tier.



lord_chipmonk #16 Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:21 PM

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View PostAlex_Connor, on 16 August 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

The tier 7 tech tree Tiger is an absolute joke with it's paper thin armor that doesn't even work as top tier.

 

I may not like the Tiger, but I even I can acknowledge that it isn't a bad tank. It can be brutal when top tier. 



Kartoshkaya #17 Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:26 PM

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You know, french heavies actually brawls against Mauses and Type 5.

JuliusCheddar #18 Posted 16 August 2017 - 12:40 PM

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Oh look at me, I'm a 48%er trying to outtrade an autoloader in a single shot tank. 

Tiger is one of two best tier 7 Hts (one of three if you count 105mm full APCR m4 45). 



Sir_Bad #19 Posted 16 August 2017 - 01:04 PM

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View PostAlex_Connor, on 16 August 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

The tier 7 tech tree Tiger is an absolute joke with it's paper thin armor that doesn't even work as top tier.

 

And again. The tank is not at fault for you not gitting gud. The Tank is very good, you just suck at driving it.

 

If you want a Tiger on T6 you have two choices, either buy/grind yourself the Ht. No. 6 or get the Tiger 131, when it is available. They even have the historically correct gun. This is a god damn arcade pixel tank game, which happens to have mostly historically correct tank models. If the Tiger would only fight the enemies, it saw, when it was introduced in RL, it would be blatantly OP. and soon midtier would be 15 Tigers vs 15 Tigers.

 

Also, if you are so hung up on the historical properties of the Tiger armor, why don't we also give it the historical engine and transmission. Having your engine fail in one out of every 5 battles sound like fun to me.



Enforcer1975 #20 Posted 16 August 2017 - 01:26 PM

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View PostAlex_Connor, on 16 August 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

Tiger needs to be on tier 6 with increased armor, german armor quality was better than allied (at least mid-war, when they were building Tigers), unlike the US or USSR they used face-hardened armor with the result that the 76mm M1A1 with it's nominal 128mm of armor pen (tested against US armor plate) proved almost incapable of engaging the Tiger I frontally despite the Tiger having a "mere" 100mm of vertical armor.

 

On tier 6 with armor equivalent to about 120 or 125mm you'd at least have a pretty tanky vehicle bearing some resemblance to the real Tiger.

 

The tier 7 tech tree Tiger is an absolute joke with it's paper thin armor that doesn't even work as top tier.

 

Yeah sadly "hardness" isn't considered in the game. I read those tests the US did using their own armor plates but found out german armor ( at least before the shortage ) was far harder which iirc in some cases posed another problem when they were too hard.




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