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Make useless Heavytanks GREAT again (long post)


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banjoman150 #1 Posted 19 August 2017 - 09:30 PM

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First of all this is NOT meant to imply that there is a general problem with heavytanks. But(t) there are quite a few examples of underperforming HTs while others outperform them.

Imo the best way to deal with such disparities is to make the underperforming tanks better exept for OP cases... those should be nerfed. I will not include premiumtanks


 

I will post a list of HTs that are underperforming tier for tier based on the statistics of wotnews as of 19.08.17

If i have experience with a particular tank i will post my ideas how to improve them.

To better visualize the armor changes i suggest and see the hidden balance values i highly recommend you to have a look at them in tanks.gg  Base stats as in garage stats can be selected

by klicking on the "Options" button and klicking on "BAse values"

 

Also whenever i propose to swap out a gun i mean it having the same overall damage per minute with the same stats (accuracy, aimtime) as the gun it is replacing unless

stated otherwise


 

Tier 3  [T3 HTs get special MM and only see T3 and T4]

 

- Type 91[Japan]. Wirate is 46.83%

  Massive target with 20mm of armor max and really slow. The DPM is already very good so i do not think it needs buffing. Instead i would buff its viewrange 10m to 340m,

  Buff accuracy of 47mm topgun from 0.4 to 0.38, improve aimtime from 2.1 to 1.9 and increase its topspeed from 25 to 30km/h.  This would not bee enough to give it a competitive WR

  but a good start imo


 

Tier 4  [they get special MM and see T4 and T5 battles]  They generally are pretty useless in T5 so i will try to fix that


 

-Type 95 Heavy [Japan] WR is 47.5%

 Same armorlayout as Type 91 but with 35mm and just as big but even slower ... Actually the "best" of the T4 heavies... atleast statistically

 Balancechagnes: New topgun "7,5cm tank gun type 3" [intermediate gun on I-O exp]. Same softstats as old 75mm gun but with better penetration. (instead of 70/100 it has 90/112)

 Accuray buffed from 0.40 to 0.38

 Topspeed increase from 22km/h to 30 km/h together with reverse speed from 10 to 13 wich brings it on par with type 91. (in my buffed version). Viewrange +10m to 350m


 

- Durchbruchswagen 2 [Germany] WR is 46.93%. Worst of the T4 heavies.

  50mm armor allround on hull with 80mm turret. Shockingly bad gun that is only remotely competitive using premiumammo... (5cm gun with 70dmg and 67/130 pen)

  Balancechanges: New topgun 7,5cm Kw.K. 40 L43 (stockgun on Pz4 ausf H) DPM is 1700 wich means a ROF of 15.5  with 103/139 penetration and 110dmg. Hitpoint buff from 440 to 450.

  Viewrange from 330 to 340m


 

-B1 [France] Wr is 47.42%  Good armor that allows it to be effective against most T4s but it suffers greatly in T5 as all T4 heavies do. Abillity in T4 is good so i would not change DPM but

  increase its abillity to hurt T5s.

 Balancechanges: Alternative topgun : 47mm SA 37 ameliore [top 47mm from SARL 42 with 108 standard pen and no premiumammo] Same softstats  but longer

 aimtime of 1.9 seconds instead of 1.5secs on 47mm SA37 and an improved accuracy of 0.36

 Current topgun gets ROF buff to 32 instead of 28.57 wich gives it a DPM of 1760 instead of the old 1570. To devide the roles the accuracy of the old topgun is reduced to 0.42


 

Tier 5


 

- VK 30.01[Germany] Wr is 47.93%    Its abillity to hurt higher tiers is good but its armor is lacking to say the least. Its not supposed to feature heavy armor howerver i feel like its a bit too bad.

 Balancechanges: Hullarmor allround buffed from 50 to 60mm. Gun mantled buffed from 80 to 100mm (has very small overlapping zones anyway).


 

- Churchill 1 [UK]  Wr is 48.24%  Its abillity to hurt higher tiers is good. Armor is only usefull in T5. At higher tiers it should be more of a support tank. However its mobillity is a hinderance in

  doing so...

 Balancechanges: Topspeed buffed from 25 to 28 wich makes in equal to Churchill 3(premium). Decrease terrainresistance to help it utilizing its "mobility" when playing the

 supportrole. Gundepression buff from -4° to -5°.


 

- BDR G1 B {France] Wr is 48.63%

  Balancechanges: Viewrange goes up from 320 to 330. Turret tumor now 100mm thick at the entire front.


 

- T1 Heavy tank[USA]  Wr is 48.91%

 Balancechanges: Entire side gets a uniform thickness of 52,4mm [currently the rear half of the sides are 41.3mm]

                              Entirety of the front "cheecks" become 88.9mm [currently a good portion of the cheecks is only 76.2mm] Reverse speed buffed from 10 to 12 km/h


 


 Tier 6


 

- Churchill 7 [UK] Wr is 47.86%

 Balancechanges: Fowardfacing Turretroof buffed from 20mm to 30mm to avoid 75-90mm guns from overmatching.

 Topspeed buffed from 20 to 25kmh.


 

- M6[USA] Wr is 48.48

 Balancechanges: Viewrange buffed from 350 to 370meters. New topradio with 600-700meters signalrange. 480meters is just bad at tier 6. Lightly buffed terraint resistance and improved

 reverse speed from 10 to 12 km/h. Traverse speed buffed fro 25 to 27° per second.

 

- ARL 44 [France] Wr is 48.57%

 Balancechanges: Rof with topgun increased from 6 to 6.2. Slight buff to dispersion during turret traverse from 0.20 to 0.17 [lower is better]


 


 Tier 7


 

- AMX M4 Mle 45[France] Wr is 48.51

 Balancechanges: Aimtime buffed from 2.9 to 2.7 secnonds. Rate of fire buffed from 6.98 to 7.2. Hitpoints from 1350 to 1400


 

- Tiger 1 [Germany] Wr is 48.65%   It already has very good DPM and most hotpoints.

  Balancechanges: Turret and tanktraverse buffed by 2° per second respectively. Turret 20° and hull 28° after buff.

 I do not think that these stats reflect the actual performance of the Tiger 1. It is probably the most iconic tank of WW2 and alot of inexperienced players rush towards it to stomp

 T-34s and Shermans. While this is true for other tanks as well i doubt it applies to the same degree as it does for the Tiger 1.


 

Tier 8


 

- Tiger 2[Germany] Wr is 48.11%

 Balancechanges: Rof buffed from 5.77 to 6 with 1920 DPM

 Lowerplate from 100mm to 120mm like it used to be prior to HD model. Armor still would not be super reliable because the turret is only working

 when directly facing its opponent. A little to the side and 150+pen guns can penetrate it. The turretfront itself isnt that strong either. Also even with the 120mm lowerplate this weakspot would

 still be viable for guns with ~200 pen when expertly angled.


 

- VK 45.02 (P) [Germany  Wr is 48.22%.

 Since the recent armorbuffs its armor is fine tbh. What it is desperately waiting for is a gun buff. I went for a 88mm sniper gun with very good DPM and a 105mm gun with less DPM

 (a bit better than Tiger 2 elite with 105 L68) and accuracy but with better alpha.

 Balancechanges: Rate of fire buff for 88mm Kw.K 43 L71 from 7,79 to 8.96 with 2150 DPM (same as Tiger 2 stock).

 Accuracy of said 88mm gun impoved from 0.37 to 0.34 (same as Tiger 2 stock)

 Rate of fire buff for 10,5cm Kw.K. L52 from 5.96 to 6.25 with 2000 DPM


 

- Caernarvon [UK].  Wargaming is testing this tank with serious upgrades (stronger turret and a new gun with 280 instead of 230 alpha) so i will not suggest anything. Lets wait and see what

   WG came up with. Those tests are being conducted on the Supertestserver wich means it wont make it into the upcoming patch but maybe in the one after that.


 

Tier 9


 

- T10 (Is8) [USSR]  Wr is 48.49%

 Balancechanges: Slight aimtimebuff from 2.8 to 2.6 seconds. Gundepression buff from -5° to -6°

 Lowerplate buffed from 120 to 135 making it equal to the lowerplate of Object 268 TD wich was based upon is8 hull. Still the armor would not be reliable against a good amout of T8 HTs but if

 one is facing T8s  with low pen it now can protect against those targets if facing them straight on at medium ranges. At closeranges the enemy will shoot down at the upperplate (wich stays

 the same) anyway. Its effective thickness would be roughly 205 to 210mm of armor. (currently 180mm)


 


 

Tier 10


 

Beliefe it or not according to Wot news the only sub 49% heavy on tier 10 is the IS7. Its Winrate is 48.7%. Followed by the IS4 wich has a WR of 49.29 and isnt really underperforming per se.

As Wargaming will buff the IS7 in the upcoming patch 0.9.20 i wont suggest anything. By far the best T10 heavies, ignoring the Object 260 reward tank, are the brand new

WZ 111-model 5 and Penzerkampfwagen 7 with winrates of 55.39 and 55.1 respectively.

 

 

Phew you really made it this far down? Thank you for taking the time to read my post. Please take part in the discussion and share your thoughts!


 


 


 

 


 


 


 


 


 


 


Edited by banjoman150, 19 August 2017 - 10:30 PM.


NiemandXL #2 Posted 19 August 2017 - 09:37 PM

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View Postbanjoman150, on 19 August 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

Tier 3  [T3 HTs get special MM and only see T3 and T4]

 

 

Tier 3 MM was changed a while back so all tier 3 tanks no longer have +2 MM.

banjoman150 #3 Posted 19 August 2017 - 09:38 PM

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Well when a 3 HT sees only T3 and T4 i dont think that qualifies as +2 MM. That would mean  it would have to fight tier 5s...

Lil_Dimitry #4 Posted 19 August 2017 - 09:55 PM

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I won't talk about lower tiers since i have no idea how the tanks perform and i haven't played half of them.

 

 

   Tiger 2 is fine, people play it like a mindless superheavy press w, are surprised they get penned everywhere. You need to make use of the gun (which is amazing for a tier 8) and mostly play it as a support for other heavies, angle, bully lower tiers.

 

In general, tier 8 heavies (and i think it's the same for the tier 7s) perform way better than the mediums so i don't know why you would say you need them to be made "great again".

 

 

 I have no idea if the t-10 underperforms, i'll take your word for it, if it has 48% wr overall it just proves how dumb these statistics are , t-10 is BY FAR the best tier 9 heavy. The fact that wot players have no idea how to play it doesn't make it a bad tank. It doesn't need a buff, it doesn't need a nerf, the thing that needs to happen is that players should learn to use their brain.



banjoman150 #5 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:08 PM

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As the Tiger 2 doesnt have any aspects that are hard to balance like autoloaders  or huge alpha, there is no viable excuse for its below average performance.



Toni112007 #6 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:08 PM

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Anyone who thinks Tiger II is fine shouldn't be playing this game.

Laatikkomafia #7 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:18 PM

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T-10 is weak.

 

Ayyyyyy lmao.



Nishi_Kinuyo #8 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:20 PM

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Block Quote

 - Type 91[Japan]. Wirate is 46.83%

  Massive target with 35mm of armor max and really slow. The DPM is already very good so i do not think it needs buffing. Instead i would buff its viewrange 10m to 340m,

  Buff accuracy of 47mm topgun from 0.4 to 0.38, improve aimtime from 2.1 to 1.9 and increase its topspeed from 25 to 30km/h.  This would not bee enough to give it a competitive WR

  but a good start imo

 Type 91 is fine as it is actually.

Mobility increase would be pretty pointless, and buffing the gun even further would just make it more broken (it could take on a KV-1 no problem as long as it didn't get hit).

Also, it has only 20mm armour.

Block Quote

  -Type 95 Heavy [Japan] WR is 47.5%

 Same armor as Type 91 and just as big but even slower ... Actually the "best" of the T4 heavies... atleast statistically

 Balancechagnes: New topgun "7,5cm tank gun type 3" [intermediate gun on I-O exp]. Same softstats as old 75mm gun but with better penetration. (instead of 70/100 it has 90/112)

 Accuray buffed from 0.40 to 0.38

 Topspeed increase from 22km/h to 30 km/h together with reverse speed from 10 to 13 wich brings it on par with type 91. (in my buffed version). Viewrange +10m to 350m

 Is tier for tier a worse tank than the Type 91 as it is.

Personally I think that the breech of the Type 3 is too big to fit in the turret and suggest the 57mm Shin instead (same as Ke-Ho and Chi-He).

Against mobility buff is pointless since it'll never reach the topspeed.

 

And for most in general:

An average winrate of 48-49% is balanced. Only below 48% is it an issue.



banjoman150 #9 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:29 PM

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@Nishi_Kinuyo

You said that

everthing below 48 is an issue but at the same time you say that Type 91 fine as it is. Yes it has a good gun but it only has 20mm of armor (thank you for correcting me) wich means HE derbs decimate it.

To me it isnt fine if it was it wouldnt have a winrate of only 46.83%. Actually everything under 49 % is already underperforming

As there are no more draws than 1% in all random matches meaning that tanks below 49% do make a negative impact.


Edited by banjoman150, 19 August 2017 - 10:37 PM.


pathed91 #10 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:32 PM

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View Postbanjoman150, on 19 August 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

I will post a list of HTs that are underperforming tier for tier based on the statistics of wotnews as of 19.08.17

 

You used the avarage winrate for all players instead of dividing it based on individuel player skill, right? This would give a flawed result, it doesn't give the full picture. Take for example DW2 with its 46.93% winrate, if you check the winrate curve for the tank:

 

http://wot-news.com/...rmany/G90_DW_II

 

You wil see that the tank keeps very close to the blue baseline, with some overperformance for bad players and with some underperformance with good players. According to the stats it looks pretty balanced to me.

 

Another example would be 121b with a global winrate of 55.32%. Because it's a reward tank only above avarage players get it, scewing the results. Everyone I have heard talking about the tank says it's weak compared to other meds at the tier and should be buffed.

 

 



TheMarketGardener #11 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:37 PM

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T-10 needing buffs 

 

 

Doesn't mention garbo M103 that is easily the worst t9 HT atm except for probably type 4

 

 

 


Edited by TheMarketGardener, 19 August 2017 - 10:38 PM.


Nishi_Kinuyo #12 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:38 PM

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View Postbanjoman150, on 19 August 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

@Nishi_Kinuyo

You said that everthing below 48 is an issue but at the same time you say that Type 91 fine as it is. Yes it has a good gun but it only has 20mm of armor (thank you for correcting me) wich means HE derbs decimate it.

To me it isnt fine if it was it wouldnt have a winrate of only 46.83%. Actually everything under 49 % is already underperforming

As there are no more draws than 1% in all random matches meaning that tanks below 49% do make a negative impact.

You're only blindly looking at the global winrate of a tank.

If you were to examine the actual winrate curves in respect to the winrate of those playing them, you'd see that the Type 91 is actually overperforming for most players; the only issue being that most players are still 41-47% WR players; the limiting factor for high-skill players being only the mobility of the tank.

http://wot-news.com/...pan/J21_Type_91



banjoman150 #13 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:40 PM

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@pathed91

 

I do think that tank curves are only really usefull when its unsure if a tank is underperforming or not. Reward tanks with their very limited playercount and considering what kind of players usually get those tanks are a

different story. But if i see something with 46 or 47 in the front the curve doesnt really matter as to determine if the tank needs buffing.



pathed91 #14 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:44 PM

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View Postbanjoman150, on 19 August 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

@pathed91

 

I do think that tank curves are only really usefull when its unsure if a tank is underperforming or not. Reward tanks with their very limited playercount and considering what kind of players usually get those tanks are a

different story. But if i see something with 46 or 47 in the front the curve doesnt really matter as to determine if the tank needs buffing.

 

Both DW2 and Type 91 have been proven in this thread already that they don't underperform with help of winrate curves. Stop looking at the avarage winrate for the tank as the go-to way of measuring a tanks performance.

Edited by pathed91, 19 August 2017 - 10:46 PM.


banjoman150 #15 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:50 PM

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@Nishi_Kinuyo

 

Those curves were advertised as the one ture method to measure weather it is in need of a buff or not. To me only worth looking at when its unsure if a certain tank needs buffs or not. Now if you want to determine what kind of buffs a tank needs

those curves are usefull because certain characteristics benefit good players more than average or bad players.

That doesnt mean however that tanks that give 45% winrate to all those 42% beginner players are fine because they are overperforming for those kinds of players. A tank has to be usable and fun to play for all kinds of players.

 

 



banjoman150 #16 Posted 19 August 2017 - 10:53 PM

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View Postpathed91, on 19 August 2017 - 10:44 PM, said:

 

Both DW2 and Type 91 have been proven in this thread already that they don't underperform with help of winrate curves. Stop looking at the avarage winrate for the tank as the go-to way of measuring a tanks performance.

 

No i wont those curves do not negate 46% winrate. What do i care if 43% players get 45% out of it. Those curves are NOT superior to Winrate.

SilentFear #17 Posted 19 August 2017 - 11:01 PM

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T10 weak ? You wot mate ?

pathed91 #18 Posted 19 August 2017 - 11:01 PM

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View Postbanjoman150, on 19 August 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

 

No i wont those curves do not negate 46% winrate. What do i care if 43% players get 45% out of it. Those curves are NOT superior to Winrate.

 

Yes they are superior, because you can see what ppl tend to get in it based on their own winrate. They get the winrate they should. You have to take into consideration also that there are a lot more bad players than good players, which also will scew the result if you only look at the global winrate. 

leggasiini #19 Posted 19 August 2017 - 11:04 PM

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T-10 buffs?

 

BWAHAAHHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAA

 

Think deeply, why it has lowish WR? Maybe not because the IS-7 is first line for like 3/4 of players and is thus played by newbies who thinks it should be played as full heavy and not as a heavium?

 

Absolutely hilarous how you suggest T-10 to be buffed but leave out Black Prince and Tiger P (also you suggest buffs to Tiger I which is flat out better than P outside of armor that has more weakspots than anything anyways).

 

57mm shin wouldnt help Type 95 at all because high DPM gun doesnt go well with the platform. It increases exposure time and the platform doesnt want to be exposed to anything. Best option is to downtier both Types, give Type 91 its historical gun (57mm, same as I-Go) and just nerf Type 95 (mostly HP and major nerf to DPM) and your good to go.


Edited by leggasiini, 19 August 2017 - 11:12 PM.


pathed91 #20 Posted 19 August 2017 - 11:08 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 19 August 2017 - 11:04 PM, said:

T-10 buffs?

 

BWAHAAHHAHAHAAHHAAAAAAAA

 

Think deeply, why it has lowish WR? Maybe not because the IS-7 is first line for like 3/4 of players and is thus played by newbies who thinks it should be played as full heavy and not as a heavium?

 

Absolutely hilarous how you suggest T-10 to be buffed but leave out Black Prince and Tiger P (also you suggest buffs to Tiger I which is flat out better than P outside of armor that has more weakspots than anything anyways).

 

^^ so much this. I made the same mistake when I started grinding my first heavy line and played the VK45A like a heavy instead of a heavium.




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