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ST-II Proposal

ST-II ST-I IS-4

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Draco90 #1 Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:24 PM

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Hello world! 
In this article i want to give my proposal about the fate of the tier 10 after the ST-I.


DISCLAIMER: all of this is my personal idea! Nothing of this is presented like a rumor or something like that. Just free talking.

 

[the image is not mine, just get from google]

 

My idea is simple: putting the ST-II in place of IS-4, making the last premium tier 8 (after obvious corrections), resolving the problem of having a tier 8 non limited mm premium heavy tank (Defender/obj 252u is a way but is not currently available in the store: i'm talking of removing the IS-6 and using the IS-4 instead).

But now, how to balance a 2-gun tank?
I thought about it and my advice is to use the World of Warships tecnique:
the 2 barrels will have only one aiming circle, but 2 different INDEPENDENT loading indicators (like for example 2 dots indicating which gun is ready, or 2 gauges like the one is already ingame).
How to shoot? alwasy WoWs style:
- 1 single click: 1 barrel shooting (one of the two, or the one that is not broken or reloading).
- 1 single click (holding the button): subsequent shooting of the 2 barrels of a fixed amount (taking in account the fact that after the first shot the aim bloom will become wider i don't think this mode will be usefull).
- double click: both gun shooting (if loaded) or shooting the ready gun.


The gun stats balance is pretty simple i think:
- 0.36 dispersion
- same soft gun stats of ST-I

- depression: ST-I has  -8, IS-4 -6, i think -7 will do the job.
- reloading and damage: balancing this two think is something a little tricky because i didn't want to have a super op tank.
Considering that the most dpm tank is the T57 HT with 3096 base dpm and the lower is the PzKpfw VII with 2100 (considering that most russian tanks are in the range 2100-2200 ) i have chosen 2300 dpm and two options (the following stats are meant PER gun):
- - using high guns with very slow reload: 440 alpha with 22.95 seconds reload (my preferred choice, because we can keep the 122 mm gun dmg)
- - using low dmg guns with "faster" reload: 350 alpha with 18.26 second reload
(Note: gun rammer is not allowed in this tank like autoloader ones)

So we have two guns that can shoot in a independent way from one another and a usage that is comparable to the autoloaders, but different (we don't have to wait to reload the full clip before shooting), with a DPM that is comparable to the other tanks (and even in the low zone).
Tecnically we have a plain copy of the IS-4 gun-wise if we think to shoot in the middle of the other gun reloading: achieving 440 dmg every 11.475 seconds exactly like the old IS-4, BUT double clicking we can reach and surclass a E-100 dmg capability: 880 dmg every 23 seconds (more like a TD).

Other tanks stats i propose:
Armor:
+10/20 mm of armor in SOME points of the hull for feeling the tier advance.
Mobility:
+150 power and +5 top speed, having a tank between the ST-I and the IS-4.
Health:
2'500 like the IS-4.

 

Let me know what do you think guys :D


Edited by Draco90, 07 September 2017 - 07:27 PM.


leggasiini #2 Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:47 PM

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IS-4 shouldnt be tier 8 premium. Just no.

DuncaN_101 #3 Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:51 PM

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How about just no

tajj7 #4 Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:51 PM

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I think you'd have to have pretty poor DPM to balance it out.  It's basically like a double barrel shotgun, but I'd reckon there would be aiming/accuracy penalties firing both barrels at the same time, so firing both it behave like a derp gun basically with really bad accuracy.

 

Then you could have another option of like a two shot autoloader, where the second shot fired after 1-2 seconds.

 

Use the same button as siege mode to select the two firing modes. 

 

So 'both barrels' mode would be like 0.5 accuracy with like a 3.4s aim time and then say a 16s reload. 

 

'Double tap' mode would be like 0.38 accuracy, with like 2.5s aim time, let's say 2s between the shots and an 18s reload. 

 

You can only change modes when fully loaded.  Same alpha and pen as current ST-I, soft stats to be decided but not great. 



Derethim #5 Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:54 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 07 September 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

IS-4 shouldnt be tier 8 premium. Just no.

 

inb4 people rushing through tiers to get it like with the baguette TDs

Balc0ra #6 Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:54 PM

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WG more or less said they wanted to do the same to the IS-4 as they just did with the 155. And the ST-II was considered for it. But they did not say how they planned to make that work. As they more or less had zero clue if it was doable. Or a way to make it "balanced" if you will. It's just an idea they did mention at gamescom. Nothing else.

 

IMO the one way to make it work is to make it function like a mix of the only 2 barreled tank in the game atm, and the IS-3A. Shorter reload time, but using one barrel at the time, even with a say 11 sec reload. There should be bigger penalties with aim etc if you had both at the same time, and a way longer reload.



laulaur #7 Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:56 PM

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View Posttajj7, on 07 September 2017 - 06:51 PM, said:

I think you'd have to have pretty poor DPM to balance it out.  It's basically like a double barrel shotgun, but I'd reckon there would be aiming/accuracy penalties firing both barrels at the same time, so firing both it behave like a derp gun basically with really bad accuracy.

 

Then you could have another option of like a two shot autoloader, where the second shot fired after 1-2 seconds.

 

Use the same button as siege mode to select the two firing modes. 

 

So 'both barrels' mode would be like 0.5 accuracy with like a 3.4s aim time and then say a 16s reload. 

 

'Double tap' mode would be like 0.38 accuracy, with like 2.5s aim time, let's say 2s between the shots and an 18s reload. 

 

You can only change modes when fully loaded.  Same alpha and pen as current ST-I, soft stats to be decided but not great. 

 

This sounds interesting, but i am afraid that the 'balance department' will manage to make it either OP, UP or completely broken....

Cannes76 #8 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:00 PM

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Are people treating this like a new idea as some sort of trolling?

This has been proposed for a long while now, OP. Even by WG itself.



Kartoshkaya #9 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:04 PM

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Double click for dual shoot ?

 

Are you stupid ?



Dava_117 #10 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:15 PM

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Proposal to make your idea better IMMO:

1) make the 2 guns works as 2 guns. First click fire first gun and start its reload. Second click fires the second gun whose reload starts once first is finished. Simple and linear. Jiust 2 light showing wich gun is ready, wich is reloading and wich is waiting reload (green, yellow and red for example). Same stat as IS-4. Same armor as ST-I.

2) Keep both ST-2 and IS-4. So we can choose between armor and firepower (as for chines tire 10 HT)


Edited by Dava_117, 07 September 2017 - 08:18 PM.


Draco90 #11 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:23 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 07 September 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

IS-4 shouldnt be tier 8 premium. Just no.

 

View PostDuncaN_101, on 07 September 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

How about just no

 

I respect your idea, but explain, please. Obv i didn't mean to put it tier 8 just the way it is now, but with proper modification.

 

View PostCannes76, on 07 September 2017 - 08:00 PM, said:

Are people treating this like a new idea as some sort of trolling?

This has been proposed for a long while now, OP. Even by WG itself.

 

Having a tank with 2300 dpm and possibly 440 alpha every 12 seconds or 880 alpha every 23 seconds is not too bad for me. Anyway it's just a free talking as i told in the first lines of the post. No mean to suggest anything from the point WG already told (in march 2017) that their idea is to switch simply the tiers of IS-4 and ST-I.

 

View PostKartoshkaya, on 07 September 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

Double click for dual shoot ?

 

Are you stupid ?

 

No need to offence. Why do you think is not a viable option? 



Kartoshkaya #12 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:27 PM

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You don't see why double click is bad ?

 

Hint : If you only click once, when will your gun fires knowing that the game have to wait if the double click will be triggerd or not ?



Draco90 #13 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:44 PM

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View PostKartoshkaya, on 07 September 2017 - 08:27 PM, said:

You don't see why double click is bad ?

 

Hint : If you only click once, when will your gun fires knowing that the game have to wait if the double click will be triggerd or not ?

 

Have you ever played World of Warships? There, multiple turrets have different aiming cirlces and reload. (in my idea, the fact that the guns are "twins" are aiming at the same spot, so same aiming circle, different reload).

Click -> first fire, first reload (23 seconds) 

Click -> second fire, second reload (other 23 seconds, while the first gun is still in the process) 

in my idea the 2 gun have SEPARATE gun reloading.

Click click -> both fires, both reload (both reload in 23 seconds)


Edited by Draco90, 07 September 2017 - 08:45 PM.


leggasiini #14 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:45 PM

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View PostDraco90, on 07 September 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

I respect your idea, but explain, please. Obv i didn't mean to put it tier 8 just the way it is now, but with proper modification.

 

1. Yes, more tier 8 Russian HTs premiums. Exactly what we need. Fantastic.

2. Whats the point of replacing IS-6 with nerfed IS-4? You do more effort with that than just buffing the IS-6, and you "lose" one tank from the game. Keep the IS-4 somewhere else and buff IS-6. Also less effort, win win situation.

3. Its yet another T8 Russian HT premium.

4. IS-4 is too unbalanced for tier 8 even with historical configuration. Too much armor and too weak gun.

5. If you nerf the armor but buff the gun...Whats better than yet another t8 Russian HT premium? Oh yes, yet another tier 8 russian HT prem that offers nothing unique over others!

6. Did I mention that its yet another tier 8 Russian HT premium?

 

Sorry if I sounded mean, but...there are just way better options.

 

1. Swap IS-4 and ST-I. Give ST-I option to mount single or dual guns, so its ST-I and ST-II in same package. IS-4 becomes tier 9.

2. Put ST-II as a tier 10. Make IS-4 reward tank like Foch 155 and buff it.

3. Same as 2., expect make ST-II alternative researchable tier 10 instead of a replacement of IS-4. Think Obj 140/T62A situation.

4. Make IS-4 a crossover vehicle at tier 9. IS-3 and KV-4 both lead to it, and IS-4 sidesteps to T-10 and ST-I.

 

The ST-II itself is not a bad idea and could be interesting if implemented right. However so was the Swedish TDs, yet they failed them pretty hard, resulting in one of the most unfun tanks to play against. So ST-II could work out well but it would very easily be unfun to play with and/or against, be broken, OP or UP. Thats the general problem with implementing very "special" features.


Edited by leggasiini, 07 September 2017 - 08:46 PM.


GaryThomasBolton #15 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:49 PM

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Lol, IS4 made a Tier 8 tank with the armour it has. What tank at tier 8 could possibly pen it from any angle? :facepalm:



Draco90 #16 Posted 07 September 2017 - 08:59 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 07 September 2017 - 08:45 PM, said:

 

1. Yes, more tier 8 Russian HTs premiums. Exactly what we need. Fantastic.

2. Whats the point of replacing IS-6 with nerfed IS-4? You do more effort with that than just buffing the IS-6, and you "lose" one tank from the game. Keep the IS-4 somewhere else and buff IS-6. Also less effort, win win situation.

3. Its yet another T8 Russian HT premium.

4. IS-4 is too unbalanced for tier 8 even with historical configuration. Too much armor and too weak gun.

5. If you nerf the armor but buff the gun...Whats better than yet another t8 Russian HT premium? Oh yes, yet another tier 8 russian HT prem that offers nothing unique over others!

6. Did I mention that its yet another tier 8 Russian HT premium?

 

Sorry if I sounded mean, but...there are just way better options.

 

1. Swap IS-4 and ST-I. Give ST-I option to mount single or dual guns, so its ST-I and ST-II in same package. IS-4 becomes tier 9.

2. Put ST-II as a tier 10. Make IS-4 reward tank like Foch 155 and buff it.

3. Same as 2., expect make ST-II alternative researchable tier 10 instead of a replacement of IS-4. Think Obj 140/T62A situation.

4. Make IS-4 a crossover vehicle at tier 9. IS-3 and KV-4 both lead to it, and IS-4 sidesteps to T-10 and ST-I.

 

The ST-II itself is not a bad idea and could be interesting if implemented right. However so was the Swedish TDs, yet they failed them pretty hard, resulting in one of the most unfun tanks to play against. So ST-II could work out well but it would very easily be unfun to play with and/or against, be broken, OP or UP. Thats the general problem with implementing very "special" features.

 

I respect the idea. I thought about replacing the IS-6 with IS-4 cause WG told that want in the future remove all special mm tanks and replace with full mm. Actually, there is only ONE russian tier 8 prem BUYABLE (everytime) HT, the IS6. I know there is Defender, IS-5 and such but the truth is that there are no full mm urss ht tier 8 that we can buy. Anyway this will not happen so np, just i love the IS-4 and caressed the idea.

 

All 4 option you wrote about are nice, personally i like the number 2. 

 

This post was written properly to talk like normal ppl about what we WOULD do at this game. 

Said that, WG will swap ST-I and IS-4 unless some miracle occurs.



Draco90 #17 Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:00 PM

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View PostGaryThomasBolton, on 07 September 2017 - 08:49 PM, said:

 

Lol, IS4 made a Tier 8 tank with the armour it has. What tank at tier 8 could possibly pen it from any angle? :facepalm:

 

Absolutely i did not mean that. I meant NERF it to a tier 8 level and than put it there. 

Like the FV 4202 case.



Spurtung #18 Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:36 PM

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View PostDraco90, on 07 September 2017 - 08:24 PM, said:

DISCLAIMER: all of this is my personal idea!

And it's so original...



japtank #19 Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:38 PM

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IS-4 is a handsome tank.

ST-I is nearly as ugly as an M6.

 

They may do whatever they want, but don't even think about moving that atrocity at tier X, please!



Kartoshkaya #20 Posted 07 September 2017 - 09:39 PM

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Yeah you're stupid. You can't even understand why having à delay for your gun to shoot would make the tank unplayable.




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