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Free to play grinding regarding crew skills

crew skills

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komunistu33 #1 Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:04 PM

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I'm trying to get LT-15 completed so I bought a tier 5 LT (T-50), I slapped on a crew(some old HT/MT crew, can't recall) that was on 90% skills (90% 6th sense for the commander and 90% camo for the rest). 

I started playing and am doing pretty well in it so far but I'm severely hampered by not having 6th sense on a LT, but it is at 90% so it shouldn't take too long, I thought. 

 

I retrained the crew for the tank and could only get it up to maximum 70% with credits. It took a bit of grinding to get the modules(with a disabled crew) then the next tank unlocked and only after all that could I tick the accelerate crew training. 

 

I've played a total of 192 battles in the T-50 with a terrible crew and I've only manged to get a 5% increase in my crew skills. FIVE. And it's not like I played it terribly, I managed a 60% winrate in it and am close to getting my 3rd mark of excellence this with over half of the grind with an <100% crew, obviously without 6th sense. 

I get that WG needs their money since they're struggling financially but this is just absurd having to play close to 200 battles in a tank, actually doing good and only getting 5% increase on the first crew skill in a game where competitive players usually sport 3-4-5+ crew skills. There's a severe disadvantage when it comes to crews when comparing a f2p player with a p2w player, the discrepancy is too big, What do you guys think, is this game sort of pay2advantage/win or is it normal to grind 200 battles for such a little increment? 

 

 

 



komunistu33 #2 Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:27 PM

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BUMP

CaptainThunderWalker #3 Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:31 PM

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That bump was unneeded lol. Patience is a virtue.

 

But yes, I agree. Free players suffer terribly in crew training and I think this is the first main P2W aspect of the game. Even thinking about this too much makes me want to quit WoT. The second being OP premium tanks (Defender Cyka Blyat) and premium ammo, and the third being the !##@#$ map pool that is just crap. Seriously, who even thinks a map like Mines for high tiers is a good idea?!

 

Oh well, I play less than I used to, and I will probably play even less in the future. I like that plan of action.



Spurtung #4 Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:37 PM

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You will need roughly 79,443 exp from 70% to 100% of Primary skill

You will need roughly 34,665 exp from 90% to 95% of First skill

Total: 114,108

 

192 battles at 435 average totals 83,520

 

With daily first wins, I'd say it sounds perfectly reasonable.



Baldrickk #5 Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:39 PM

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Yes, the last few % take the longest.
Each % rewrites 2x as much as the last.

T-50 is good though.
Like the Chaffee, with a brand new 75% crew, I earned my three marks before getting 100% primary skill.

Balc0ra #6 Posted 07 September 2017 - 11:57 PM

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Not picked up any of the free gift tanks since you started playing? Considering most of them have been Russian lights. Low tier sure, but still premiums with 1.5x crew bonus XP.

Edited by Balc0ra, 07 September 2017 - 11:57 PM.


Mike_Mckay #7 Posted 08 September 2017 - 01:45 AM

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Your winrate isn't really an important stat, someone could sit in the base, never touch their mouse and keyboard and if they get lucky matchmaking could get over 50% winrate right out of the gate

​Similarly a good player getting dreadful matchmaking can have a 40% winrate

​A winrate is only an absolute guide to an individuals ability in a 1v1 type game, not a 15v15 game where almost every game sees one or more people dying early on with zero damage but with their team still winning. So one, two or with the more inbalanced teams half or more of team doing nothing or dying early wont influence the outcome of the game

​Somewhere there is a chart that tells you what actions in a game have what effect on your XP and silver earning, so it might be an idea to find that and focus more on what pays off.

​Also if you only played one game a day to get your x2 as compared to the same number of games one after the other with only 5% being a x2 your crew would progress quicker.in terms of games played

​And lastly, I might be wrong here but the spotting damage seems quite low. The number of games itself like the winrate is pretty irrelevant, its what you do in games that influences the XP

​Had your assisted damage per game been 1000 then even with a lower actual damage per game I suspect your crew would be much further along. Infact the ratio of damage to assisted damage looks like you have been playing it almost like a medium tank and perhaps that's where you have been going wrong. But like I said, that's just a guess based purely on the two averages as I would have expected them to be more stacked towards assisted rather than actual damage per game

komunistu33 #8 Posted 08 September 2017 - 02:03 AM

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View PostMike_Mckay, on 08 September 2017 - 01:45 AM, said:

Your winrate isn't really an important stat, someone could sit in the base, never touch their mouse and keyboard and if they get lucky matchmaking could get over 50% winrate right out of the gate

​Similarly a good player getting dreadful matchmaking can have a 40% winrate

​A winrate is only an absolute guide to an individuals ability in a 1v1 type game, not a 15v15 game where almost every game sees one or more people dying early on with zero damage but with their team still winning. So one, two or with the more inbalanced teams half or more of team doing nothing or dying early wont influence the outcome of the game

​Somewhere there is a chart that tells you what actions in a game have what effect on your XP and silver earning, so it might be an idea to find that and focus more on what pays off.

​Also if you only played one game a day to get your x2 as compared to the same number of games one after the other with only 5% being a x2 your crew would progress quicker.in terms of games played

​And lastly, I might be wrong here but the spotting damage seems quite low. The number of games itself like the winrate is pretty irrelevant, its what you do in games that influences the XP

​Had your assisted damage per game been 1000 then even with a lower actual damage per game I suspect your crew would be much further along. Infact the ratio of damage to assisted damage looks like you have been playing it almost like a medium tank and perhaps that's where you have been going wrong. But like I said, that's just a guess based purely on the two averages as I would have expected them to be more stacked towards assisted rather than actual damage per game

 

City maps mostly so can't really get assist damage, I got Malinovka after 3 days of ensk and himmels and here's the result http://wotreplays.co...munistu33-t-50. But 9/10 games aren't like that, even if the maps were okay the teams are very bad especially in low tiers. Well, I essentially have 900 combined damage per game so the WR is justified imo. You forgot to take into account that standard accounts get LESS XP per game.

Mike_Mckay #9 Posted 08 September 2017 - 02:22 AM

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View Postkomunistu33, on 08 September 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

 

City maps mostly so can't really get assist damage, I got Malinovka after 3 days of ensk and himmels and here's the result http://wotreplays.co...munistu33-t-50. But 9/10 games aren't like that, even if the maps were okay the teams are very bad especially in low tiers. Well, I essentially have 900 combined damage per game so the WR is justified imo. You forgot to take into account that standard accounts get LESS XP per game.

 

​I know free accounts get less XP, but its only 1/3 less, so a premium account would only get 50% more give or take. 

​I don't really like playing lights and rarely play them so I am still only on LT 14 having only recently completed 13 with honours as I don't class them as completed if only the primary condition is met and I am dreading trying to accomplish 15, although 14 doesn't seem too bad

​But to be honest I wouldn't even think of trying to do LT 15 in a tier 5, 4000 damage is going to be 2/3rds of the entire enemy teams healthpool at tier 5 ALL of which has to be collected as assisted damage and without the assistance of platoon mates if I recall correctly which although not impossible is a very long reach

​For crew training though I would still suggest finding the chart of what each action contributes to your rewards then you might find ways to increase the amount of XP per game by very minor changes to your approach rather than just blindly playing and hoping it results in good XP earnings as some things that make a big difference might not be expected

​Things like poor team support when you light tanks up will vary from game to game too and is just what it is so theres no way to change that apart from maybe playing the tank in stronghold where there is often a high degree of teamwork that is lacking in random games and where team mates aren't often anywhere near as spread out, so when you spot something most of your team is there ready to shoot it

CaptainThunderWalker #10 Posted 08 September 2017 - 09:10 AM

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50% more crew training with a Premium Account is a LOT...

 

The fact that a crew without Sixth Sense is just garbage doesn't help matters. What about new players for @#%$'s sake.


Edited by CaptainThunderWalker, 08 September 2017 - 09:15 AM.


speedphlux #11 Posted 08 September 2017 - 09:17 AM

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Yeah, currently w/o Premium account and I've noticed that even grinding my re-brought WZ-111 1-4, with the x1.5 crew XP bonus and while running Personal Reserves (+200% Overall XP and +100% Crew XP), it takes ages to get the crew to 1 complete skill. Just as you start to see some progress, you hit an invisible wall around 80% were everything just halts to a crawling speed.

I am fairly confident it's even more difficult at lower tiers. Got plenty of low tier machines, that are in the same condition - abandoned at around 80-95% of their first skill, because I just got bored of them.

Spurtung #12 Posted 08 September 2017 - 09:25 AM

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View PostMike_Mckay, on 08 September 2017 - 02:45 AM, said:

Your winrate isn't really an important stat, someone could sit in the base, never touch their mouse and keyboard and if they get lucky matchmaking could get over 50% winrate right out of the gate

​Similarly a good player getting dreadful matchmaking can have a 40% winrate

​A winrate is only an absolute guide to an individuals ability in a 1v1 type game, not a 15v15 game where almost every game sees one or more people dying early on with zero damage but with their team still winning. So one, two or with the more inbalanced teams half or more of team doing nothing or dying early wont influence the outcome of the game

What a load of crap.



Mike_Mckay #13 Posted 08 September 2017 - 03:50 PM

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View PostSpurtung, on 08 September 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

What a load of crap.

 

Explain why?


Every player in a 15vs15 CANNOT be pivotal to the win, even if every player was equally skilled they would only contribute about 7% to the chance of winning, but with random matches the skill levels differ vastly, so their potential influence on the outcome will differ proportionately


Have you never won a game where you died early or never fired a shot?


Have you never lost a game where you had your best game ever?



Never won a game where a third of your team died in the first few minutes or lost one where the oppfor lost a third of theirs in the first few minutes?



Because I think most people have had the 8 kill games that they lost and the zero contribution games they won, hell I have a replay from someone who is purple who did 10 kills and 10k damage in a losing game and theres probably worse ones than that

So actually try and say something substantive eh?
 

Edited by Mike_Mckay, 08 September 2017 - 03:51 PM.


Spurtung #14 Posted 08 September 2017 - 03:55 PM

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View PostMike_Mckay, on 08 September 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

Every player in a 15vs15 CANNOT be pivotal to the win, even if every player was equally skilled they would only contribute about 7% to the chance of winning, but with random matches the skill levels differ vastly, so their potential influence on the outcome will differ proportionately


Because I think most people have had the 8 kill games that they lost and the zero contribution games they won, hell I have a replay from someone who is purple who did 10 kills and 10k damage in a losing game and theres probably worse ones than that

So actually try and say something substantive eh?

The problem is that your WR is not built in 1 match, or over a small sample of matches. When the numbers start going up, you, being the only constant in your matches, will have a negative or a positive impact in your own WR.

 

Feel free to read this: http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/640151-difference-between-a-wr-of-49-and-52-is-only-3-games-out-of-100



Mike_Mckay #15 Posted 08 September 2017 - 04:05 PM

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View PostSpurtung, on 08 September 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

The problem is that your WR is not built in 1 match, or over a small sample of matches. When the numbers start going up, you, being the only constant in your matches, will have a negative or a positive impact in your own WR.

 

Feel free to read this: http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/640151-difference-between-a-wr-of-49-and-52-is-only-3-games-out-of-100

 

And the prize for stating the blatantly obvious goes to..........


Still wondering if you are at risk of getting anywhere near actually making a point here


Your WN8 can go UP even when your winrate goes down, similarly your win rate can go up whilst your WN8 goes through the floor too


So still not seeing the point you seem to think you are making
 

View PostCaptainThunderWalker, on 08 September 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

50% more crew training with a Premium Account is a LOT...

 

The fact that a crew without Sixth Sense is just garbage doesn't help matters. What about new players for @#%$'s sake.

 

What about them?


50% extra crew training is 1/3 extra, so it means it will take you around 300 games to get to the same point a premium account gets to in 100


If you don't want to pay then you accept having to play that extra 100 games, you in fact CHOOSE to play the extra 100 games. So why then whinge about it afterwards? I just don't get it in the slightest

Its like having a fancy tin of beans and a cheap tin, you CHOOSE to buy the cheap tin then complain it "should" taste just as nice as the more expensive tin....WTF?


Is this the millennial mindset that everything in life should just be handed on a plate requiring no effort and that there should be equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity?


Playing for free is really suited for people with a LOT of spare time on their hands, everything else is suited for people who don't have that


I charge £15-30 per hour for my time in business hours and anything up to £100 per hour depending on the job, time and distance outside of business hours. So it makes no sense for me to spend 1 hour more playing WOT and 1 less hour working to "save" the cost of premium time or a premium tank.


And when that premium time will save me literally thousands of hours of gameplay over a year it makes even less sense to spend 50% more time playing and less time working


Some premium tanks cost about as much as a pint and less than cigarettes do nowadays. So why anyone who ever drinks or smokes would opt to spend thousands of extra hours playing when they could reduce the number of games needed by 1/3 for about £/$ 5 on an entire line is beyond me tbh


Are several thousand or even just several hundred hours of your time worth less than £/$5?


if that IS the case then PLEASE come and work for me, please please please oh pretty please :)

Hell, I am actually feeling generous today so I would happily pay you as much as £/$ 10 per 100 hours which seems to be double the value you place on your time
 
 

CaptainThunderWalker #16 Posted 08 September 2017 - 05:18 PM

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What about poor people. Not everybody can afford to keep playing with a premium account, and for many World of Tanks is just a hobby.

People who are on disability payment generally have time as a free resource but have little money, too, so they are unlikely to throw a lot of money at World of Tanks too.

 

Or players that are about to quit - no way they are going to spend money on World of Tanks. I considered quitting World of Tanks at least a dozen times when playing this game, and I don't spend money on a game I am considering to quit.

 

Or what about the children - not all children are allowed to spend money from their parents.

 

But most importantly, new players. When I am a new player I first want to see if I will like the game, and then I probe if I like the game for a long time. If the answer is "no" for either question, I'm not very likely to throw money at the game anytime soon. I can tell you I am not alone in that regard.

 

However, I do accept F2P has a disadvantage in grinding tank XP or credits. I think that is more than fair for the reasons you mentioned.

 

Also, current crew training's P2W aspect would be a lot less significant if 100% crews were easier to attain and Sixth Sense was a default skill. It's the lack of Sixth Sense in new crews that is the biggest problem, after all.

 

On a side note: A young teenager I know started playing World of Tanks recently. He was frustrated with the spotting mechanics and started griefing his own team because that was more fun. No way to excuse that behaviour - I agree - but it is pretty telling.


Edited by CaptainThunderWalker, 08 September 2017 - 05:22 PM.


Pansenmann #17 Posted 08 September 2017 - 07:57 PM

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if you insist on playing without premium account,

I hope you have some xp reserves left.

use them when there are 2x or 3x crew-xp weekends.

get as many daily wins for a crew as possible

make use of platoon bonus xp

 

or other way round, when there is a 3x weekend,

those 300% crew xp reserves come in handy.

even without prem acc you can reach 9k crew xp per win,

double that for the guy with accelerated training.


Edited by Pansenmann, 08 September 2017 - 07:59 PM.


Spurtung #18 Posted 08 September 2017 - 08:44 PM

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View PostMike_Mckay, on 08 September 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

 

And the prize for stating the blatantly obvious goes to..........


Still wondering if you are at risk of getting anywhere near actually making a point here


Your WN8 can go UP even when your winrate goes down, similarly your win rate can go up whilst your WN8 goes through the floor too


So still not seeing the point you seem to think you are making

 

My point is that you hinting WR is a consequence of MM related luck is a load of crap.
 

View PostMike_Mckay, on 08 September 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

50% extra crew training is 1/3 extra, so it means it will take you around 300 games to get to the same point a premium account gets to in 100

Do you have any idea how basic mathematics work? :amazed:


 

Pansenmann #19 Posted 08 September 2017 - 08:59 PM

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reference:

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Crew#Training_Level



Spurtung #20 Posted 08 September 2017 - 10:57 PM

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View PostMike_Mckay, on 08 September 2017 - 04:50 PM, said:

Explain why?

Every player in a 15vs15 CANNOT be pivotal to the win, even if every player was equally skilled they would only contribute about 7% to the chance of winning, but with random matches the skill levels differ vastly, so their potential influence on the outcome will differ proportionately

So actually try and say something substantive eh?

Wanna try an exercise?

 

Imagine you're throwing 2 dices, 1 represents you, and the other represents your team. To make it even, you'll represent the whole enemy team by throwing also two dices. When throwing them, their values will be random, just like the battles are. The final result, adding the face values of both dices is the total combined skill of teams.

To choose a winner, let's say whoever has the highest sum of both dices wins.

Obviously, your value has to reflect your skill, and since you have a constant skill, you'll have a fixed value of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 on each of the simulations.

 

Wanna try that?


Edited by Spurtung, 08 September 2017 - 11:00 PM.






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