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Japanese TD line proposal V2.0

why japanese have chi-ri fetish

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Poll: Japanese TD and autoloaders (262 members have cast votes)

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Should high-tier Japanese TDs have an autoloaders (very small magazine with very fast intra-clip reload, like magazine on the Chi-Ri). Read the topic before voting.

  1. Yes (178 votes [67.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.94%

  2. No (84 votes [32.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.06%

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leggasiini #1 Posted 10 September 2017 - 11:08 AM

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Around 4 months ago, I made a post about the Japanese tank destroyer branch. The proposal can be seen here: http://forum.worldof...-line-proposal/

 

However, things have changed. Firstly, with the recent ideology of WG with tank branches is that "tier 7/8 to 10 should be somewhat similar vehicles with similar playstyle so players can get a taste of the top tier vehicle", I decided to shuffle things around a bit. A lot of things have changed since then.

 

Last time I had a poll whether people wants the Japanese TD line or not. Out of 174 voters, 86% wants Japanese TDs to be implemented to the game. This time, I have poll if you want hightiers to have autoloaders or not (more on that on tier 8).

 

And no worries, these tanks are generally not related to heavies. Dont worry, you dont need to be prepared for massive Godzilla land-arties with 20cm guns. 

 

So the old branch looked like this:

 

The new branch will look like this instead:

 

Changes to the old branch:

 

  • Removed Ho-Ni II
  • Added Chi-Ri casemate TD at tier 7
  • Ho-Ni III, Na-To and Ka-To downtiered
  • Ho-Ri II removed from the main branch and moved to tier 8 premium
  • "Ho-Ri I B" (formerly Ho-Ri III) split into two tanks at tier 9 and 10

 

The branch can be still split into three parts like before:

 

  • poor armor, average mobility, powerful guns mounted on casemates, very good gun depression (tier 2-4)
  • no armor, average mobility, very powerful guns, good gun depression and wide gun arc thanks to their pseudo-turrets (tier 5-6)
  • poor armor with exception of the tier 10, good mobility, autoloading guns with very small but fast clips, low alpha damage and good gun depression (tier 7-10)

 

The line is generally fairly historical, but there are some necessary unhistorical modifications. The tier 7 is overtiered, but given new gun options and it could be very similar to the tier 8-10 vehicles, so it being before them instead of the Ka-To (which is completely different) makes more sense. Tier 8-9 have somewhat buffed guns from their real-life counterparts. The tier 10 is tricky one, it is fusion of several things.

 

Tier 2: Type 5 Ho-Ru

 

Tier 3: Type 1 Ho-Ni I 

 

Tier 4: Type 3 Ho-Ni III

 

Tier 5: Type 5 Na-To

 

Tier 6: Type 5 Ka-To

 

Tier 7: Casemate Chi-Ri TD I

 

Tier 8: Ho-Ri I A

 

Tier 9: Ho-Ri I B

 

Tier 10: Ho-Ri I B Kai

 

Conclusion

 

Japanese TD line is one of the few unimplemented branches that would offer a new, unique playstyles. No laser accurate ultra-DPM ultra-high penetration guns with insane camo rating, no ability to clip same tier heavies from full HP, no ability to oneshot everything and so on. Instead, they would be somewhat balanced tank destroyers that are kinda like turretless medium tanks with frontal armor comparable to heavy tanks. I wish WG implements the branch to the game some day.


Edited by leggasiini, 08 June 2018 - 07:59 AM.


leggasiini #2 Posted 10 September 2017 - 11:09 AM

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As for the premiums, there are quite a few candidates. Initially I have chosen three - Experimental 12cm SPG, or simply called as the Ro-Go 12cm (or Type 95 12cm), Chi-Ha 12cm and Ho-Ri concept II.

 

Tier 5 premium TD: Type 95 HT 12 cm / Ro-Go 12cm

 

Tier 7 premium TD: Long naval 12cm SPG Chi-Ha 

 

Tier 8 premium TD: Ho-Ri II

 


Edited by leggasiini, 08 June 2018 - 08:02 AM.


FluffyRedFox #3 Posted 10 September 2017 - 11:20 AM

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Dats a  lot of text

Seekless #4 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:01 PM

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View Postfishbob101, on 10 September 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

Dats a  lot of text

 

But with substance. I'm not fully sure about the balance here but only testing will show that.

 

For now I appreciated the read.



Eila_Juutilainen #5 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:10 PM

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I approve. Also really liking the looks of those premiums.

Nishi_Kinuyo #6 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:10 PM

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View PostSeekless, on 10 September 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

 

But with substance. I'm not fully sure about the balance here but only testing will show that.

 

For now I appreciated the read.

At least they're actually historical with most of them actually built, unlike a certain kongzhong line of TDs. :girl:



Search_Warrant #7 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:17 PM

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Some of them have garbage pen (tier 6-7) and even worse gold pens. also.. jesus christ im not playing a tier 9 with 390 alpha single shot. screw the god dam 10cm its overused to hell. its good at tier 8 then at tier 9 and 10 its use drops off extremely. tier 5 is another 150 trashcannon with nothing going for it. id refuse to play it.

 

Tier 6 has a worse gun than S35CA in gold pen with same alpha, needs fixing. paper armor, poor mobility and large size is a free frag for arty. no thanks. also gundep is usefull untill the enemy get close as always you poke a hill using the gundep and they shoot the casemate before you get the gun on them.

 

Looks interesting but not competative sadly.



PanzerVor87 #8 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:26 PM

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A 3-shell drum with 330 average per shot seems reasonable, and definitely better than BS like the Foch 155 or the WTF E 100 ('better' as in 'more balanced', not 'stronger' ).

Edited by PanzerVor87, 10 September 2017 - 12:26 PM.


Dr_Oolen #9 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:26 PM

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Too bad that unless it has 750+ alpha, 2k+ clip or lolwut camo balanced by gimmick that forces it to sit behind redline or unuseable gun handling that gives anyone immediately eye/hand cancer, it has no chance of ever being a high tier td in this game.

 

So i for one expect t10 jap td to be based on type 5 hull, with superstructure that is not 280 but 300 mm thick, 17 cm derp that has 1800 alpha on prem round and 1300 on regular. All balanced by 16° hull traverse, 8hp/t and 25 km/h top speed making it extremely enjoyable to play and extremely enjoyable to play against.



Nishi_Kinuyo #10 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:29 PM

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View PostDr_Oolen, on 10 September 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

Too bad that unless it has 750+ alpha, 2k+ clip or lolwut camo balanced by gimmick that forces it to sit behind redline or unuseable gun handling that gives anyone immediately eye/hand cancer, it has no chance of ever being a high tier td in this game.

 

So i for one expect t10 jap td to be based on type 5 hull, with superstructure that is not 280 but 300 mm thick, 17 cm derp that has 1800 alpha on prem round and 1300 on regular. All balanced by 16° hull traverse, 8hp/t and 25 km/h top speed making it extremely enjoyable to play and extremely enjoyable to play against.

Except that Japan has no 17cm cannons. It is either 149mm, 152mm, 155mm, or 203mm with nothing in between. With the last two having lolwut pen values since they're designed for shooting targets like 10km away.


Edited by Nishi_Kinuyo, 10 September 2017 - 12:32 PM.


Dr_Oolen #11 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:32 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 10 September 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Except that Japan has no 17cm cannons. It is either 149mm, 152mm, 155mm, or 203mm with nothing in between. With the last two having lolwut pen values.

 

And what exactly prevents wg from pulling anything they want out of their arse as a gun for a td that they also pulled out of their arse? And lolwut arguing about "17" cm in the first place. For all we care theres no reason why 155 mm gun cant have 1800 prem shells in wgs universe.

leggasiini #12 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:35 PM

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View PostSearch_Warrant, on 10 September 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Some of them have garbage pen (tier 6-7) and even worse gold pens. 

195 mm and 215 mm pen at tier 7 are more than enough at those tiers. The tier 6 happens to have lower gold pen because I just pasted O-Ni's pen stats over it. It would likely have much better DPM and gun handling than the S35 CA. It does have a pseudo turret, acceptable mobility and -10 depression so it could atleast relocate and do something if it cant pen, so 215mm gold pen is workable. It just happens to be like that majority of tier 6 TDs suck, so expect WG to balance it around them, possibly making it the "black sheep" of the line. Tier 7's gold pen is actually very good, AP with higher pen than many HEAT shells at the tier.

 

The tier 7 autoloading gun has low pen for balance reasons. Being able to do 650 damage at 4 seconds is nothing to laugh at.

 

View PostSearch_Warrant, on 10 September 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

 jesus christ im not playing a tier 9 with 390 alpha single shot. screw the god dam 10cm its overused to hell. its good at tier 8 then at tier 9 and 10 its use drops off extremely. 

 

Thats why I proposed autoloader guns instead, makes balancing tier 8 and 9 actually less nightmare. Single shot 390 alpha gun would be indeed UP on a tier 9 TD without a turret and meaningful armor.

 

Would you rather have yet more generic 15cm guns or retarded derps rather than autoloading 10cm with very fast intra clip reload?

 

View PostSearch_Warrant, on 10 September 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Looks interesting but not competative sadly.

 

The fact that the Tier 10 is like Object 263 with much better gun depression and gun arc as well as autoloader should make it quite easily one of the most competitive casemate TDs in its tier.

 

View PostDr_Oolen, on 10 September 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

 

And what exactly prevents wg from pulling anything they want out of their arse as a gun for a td that they also pulled out of their arse? And lolwut arguing about "17" cm in the first place. For all we care theres no reason why 155 mm gun cant have 1800 prem shells in wgs universe.

 

Well we already have Type 5 Heavy with 15.2cm gun that magically has 1400 alpha on its HE shells


Edited by leggasiini, 10 September 2017 - 12:41 PM.


Derethim #13 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:36 PM

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I think that's missing actually, fast, small clips.

leggasiini #14 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:38 PM

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View PostNishi_Kinuyo, on 10 September 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

At least they're actually historical with most of them actually built, unlike a certain kongzhong line of TDs. :girl:

 

Tier 2 - prototype

Tier 3 - mass production 

Tier 4 - mass production

Tier 5 - limited production

Tier 6 - partial prototype

Tier 7 - blueprint

Tier 8 - blueprint, possibly partially built

Tier 9 - prototype

Tier 10 - limited production

 

7 out of 9 being built is quite a good achievement, to be fair.



Igor_BL #15 Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:43 PM

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no more autoloaders, no more derp guns.

If we can have TDs without those two, then i dont have anything against that.

 Dont want japanase TDs, but still.

Dava_117 #16 Posted 10 September 2017 - 01:03 PM

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Well, this looks like a good idea. 990 burst potential is almost balanced, nice pen to compensate. I like the idea.

May be the 120mm plate should be less angled, because with 70° it's an auto-bounce even worst than swedish TDs.



leggasiini #17 Posted 10 September 2017 - 01:10 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 10 September 2017 - 02:03 PM, said:

May be the 120mm plate should be less angled, because with 70° it's an auto-bounce even worst than swedish TDs.

You are not supposed to shoot there.

 

The tank still has LFP as weakspot. The LFP is 120mm thick and basically completely unangled.



Dava_117 #18 Posted 10 September 2017 - 01:12 PM

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View Postleggasiini, on 10 September 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

You are not supposed to shoot there.

 

The tank still has LFP as weakspot. The LFP is 120mm thick and basically completely unangled.

 

Noticed it right now... well in that case it looks good to me!:)

MR_FIAT #19 Posted 10 September 2017 - 01:40 PM

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Looks good to me, Altho i dont like the idea of adding even more autoloaders. there are imo already too many of them. 

 

Low alpha at high tiers can work if they are given enough DPM and accuracy to compensate, Afterall people moan about T67 and E 25 being op despite them both having anemic alpha for their tiers, but they have enough to compensate for that shortcoming. 



leggasiini #20 Posted 10 September 2017 - 01:41 PM

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View PostMR_FIAT, on 10 September 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

Low alpha at high tiers can work if they are given enough DPM and accuracy to compensate, Afterall people moan about T67 and E 25 being op despite them both having anemic alpha for their tiers, but they have enough to compensate for that shortcoming. 

Tier 8-9 are just quite problematic because they are large + unarmored on top of that







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