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When does a light become a scout?

scout learning

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Havoc7926 #1 Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:17 AM

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Right folks.  Every so often I set myself a goal in WoT.  I'm not a good player but I've dragged my stats from red to green in a few select tanks by doing this.  One thing that has always eluded me however is the ability to not completely suck in scout tanks.  My T71 has by far the best stats of any of my scouts that I've played for more than a few games but this is probably an aberration rather than any particular skill on my part.  I wasn't playing it because I wanted to play a scout I was playing it because I wanted to unlock the T69!!!!  In other tank lines what I've usually done is select the most noob friendly line (Mother Russia in most cases) and gone back down the tiers to try and learn how to play.  So if I'm to try this approach for scouts I have two questions.

 

What tier does a light tank become a scout and not just a light tank? 

What scout line has the most noob friendly progression?  So the better line overall rather than perhaps the best high tier tank or a particular gem at one specific tier.

 

I'll be doing all the usual things of reading up on the line, watching streamers etc but need a nudge into the right starting point.  I also know that this is not going to be easy as I think scouts take the most skill of all the classes to play well.

 

Thanks

 



HugSeal #2 Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:26 AM

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It becomes a scout when you happen to spawn on malinovka/prochorovka :)

You need some speed, you need sixth sense and you need a somewhat good knowledge about spotting mechanics. But in the end it really comes down to getting a map that allows scouting.



commer #3 Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:28 AM

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View PostHugSeal, on 13 September 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

It becomes a scout when you happen to spawn on malinovka/prochorovka :)

You need some speed, you need sixth sense and you need a somewhat good knowledge about spotting mechanics. But in the end it really comes down to getting a map that allows scouting.

 

Most maps really allow for scouting. Sometimes you simply dont' have opportunities to do so early game but still Redshire, Derpenberg, Steppes to name a few still alow for scouting. Watch Illa Red on youtube. 

Bora_BOOM #4 Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:43 AM

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If you are spotting and nothing you lit gets shot - its either your spots are useless or your team is useless.

In both cases you are just a light tank.

Sure, you would provide the info where enemy is, but all you need for that is some speed and/or a good viewrange.

 

Light tank becomes a scout when your team shoots what you spot that otherwise would not be visible.



Aikl #5 Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:44 AM

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The best light tank lines are arguably the ones that are closest to medium tanks. Pretty sure that still is the Soviet LTs. No autoloaders, and even some armor at T8/9.

 

Don't view a LT as a 'scout', even on maps which supposedly cater to it. Your most important task is staying alive until there are few enough enemies to be really useful. Next, stay alive counter the enemy scouts. Blindfire bushes, approach typical 'scout bushes' from another direction, check with sixth sense whether there is an enemy spotting an area (and tell your team/ping the map) and stay alive. 

 

Furthermore, going for early spots can turn out to be a huge disadvantage for the team. Everyone stops to take shots in the open and die, or resort to camping because they'd rather wait for the enemy to pop up again. It might also make the enemy camp more - the best, and almost only, way to spot enemies on the 1-2-lines on Prokhorovka is to delay your spotting run. E1 bush is incredibly obvious early-game (and will make your 'snipers' actually move up because noone wants to go first), but mid-late game it's way safer. Enemies will push up, frontlines become more diffuse, and they don't assume that you're sitting in that bush anymore.  

 

(Lights are good spotters, but even heavy tanks can camp behind a bush with binos and outspot you. You might not see the enemy TDs until they fire at you - and then it's typically too late.)

 

(The old definition of 'scout' was due to T4 light tanks getting into T9-10 matches with literally useless arnament and viewrange (not to mention bad crew). Their arguably best option was to hit the throttle and make a run into enemy lines to get a bit of spotting and quickly end the game. That's not the case anymore. Light tanks are fast, fragile medium tanks more than anything else. They have advantages that lend themselves to flanking and spotting enemies, but are in no way limited in offensive capacity. T71 in particular has incredible firepower for a T7 tank, and simply 'scouting' with it is a huge waste of firepower. 900 clip potential is frightening for many tanks in the first place, and even more powerful when tanks are reduced to 50-60% HP - even T8 heavy tanks have IIRC a max of 1780HP.)


Edited by Aikl, 13 September 2017 - 10:49 AM.


Havoc7926 #6 Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:47 AM

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Thanks guys.  I get the fact that a pure 'scout' needs the assistance of their team to perform the role properly.  I also get that the amount of scouting you can do is map dependant and situation dependant.

 

What I'm thinking is that it may be pointless going down to tier III say to learn to scout and I know it's pointless me driving my black dog out of the garage because that's too high a tier for me to learn anything before I'm removed from the game.


Edited by Havoc7926, 13 September 2017 - 10:49 AM.


Jigabachi #7 Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:56 AM

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View Postcommer, on 13 September 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

Most maps really allow for scouting. Sometimes you simply dont' have opportunities to do so early game but still Redshire, Derpenberg, Steppes to name a few still alow for scouting. 

Sometimes, yes. But that's the kind of scouting that meds could do, too. Because the maps are all too small and cramped for higher tiers. Only Prokho and a few other maps allows for the kind of scouting that light tanks are meant to do.



Aikl #8 Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:02 AM

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View PostHavoc7926, on 13 September 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Thanks guys.  I get the fact that a pure 'scout' needs the assistance of their team to perform the role properly.  I also get that the amount of scouting you can do is map dependant and situation dependant.

 

What I'm thinking is that it may be pointless going down to tier III say to learn to scout and I know it's pointless me driving my black dog out of the garage because that's too high a tier for me to learn anything before I'm removed from the game.

 

You can learn quite a bit of vision mechanics in lower tiers, but e.g. running a T-15 as a scout in T3-4 matches is so different (much easier, arguably) from your Blackdog that it doesn't really give you any advantages - provided that you have a fair understanding of how vision mechanics actually work.

 

FWIW: The M41/Blackdog might be somewhat difficult to play. It's fairly large, it's incredibly fragile, and has rather mediocre camo values. Getting practice on T6-7 might be beneficial if you find it difficult to get to the point where you can actually get some experience playing lights. Oh, and expect people in-game to pretend that they know how you should play your light tank. Especially if they're in a 'sniping tank' and you're alive mid-game. Ignore them, and try not to take many chances.

 

Judging from what your in-game stats for the Blackdog tells, you are likely not careful enough. You survive 6% of battles. Unless you willfully ram heavy tanks at the end of every game, that's pretty bad. You're spotting 2,5 tanks on average, which in that kind of tank probably is "too much". I do about the same in my Type 62, but being a tier lower and more stealthy is probably why I survive ~25% of battles in it. That's not very good, but I do grip every chance at a ram, take chances during clean-up to farm damage or ram meds for kamikaze medals. :P



Shivvering #9 Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:13 AM

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The key to a light tank is being in a useful position to spot the early game, withdraw and support the mid-game to survive until you are chasing down/flanking campers in the end game.

 

You have a gun, use it - but use it safely. A dead light tank is a useless light tank. Use bush mechanics or withdraw beyond the view range limits for bushes you suspect enemy scouts of being in before firing.

 

Ignore the spam clickers and insults in the mid game stalemate. If you can't get a good scouting position without exposing yourself to a bunch of camped enemies, stay safe and wait it out. Impatience is responsible for the majority of my deaths in my lights. Chances are during that phase most people are close enough to spot each other as soon as a shot is fired anyhow, they just don't want to use their hit points, they'd rather you use yours. There are exceptions to this of course, but if you are planning on going on an active scouting run in the mid game then make sure you get up to full speed before poking out in to the enemy line of fire...and make sure all of your consumables are off of cooldown.

 

 



Gremlin182 #10 Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:15 AM

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Light tanks are the hardest to play well I think as you need luck good map knowledge and a team that uses the information you provide.

Depending on the map I begin with a scouting run not too risky just to get a quick look at where their team are heading at least on one flank maybe both if lucky.

 

Then I see where my team are pushing and try to keep them updated on whats ahead of them, when they can spot for themselves I break off and try my luck elsewhere.

The aim is primarily is to survive intact till the end game.

 

So I keep an overview make note of when their light tanks are dead because then I can push further into their half of the map with less risk.

Then its knowing when to really push and light up the stragglers campers and the spgs.

 

If my team is getting beaten you can still do well personally which is why I like light tanks.

I play the T71 too aggressively but its a great tank

 

Anyway it seems you are doing really well in the game so good luck



Dava_117 #11 Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:17 AM

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A tank became a scout when you keep enemy lighten up for your team. Even HTs can be scout. I've got more medals for scuting in prok with ST-I and IS-4 than in MT-25 or in 12t...

Havoc7926 #12 Posted 13 September 2017 - 11:54 AM

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Thanks everyone.

 

My stats in the black dog are as poor as they seem.  I think it was down to trying to get into too advanced a position early and over extending to the point where I had nowhere to escape to.  I've not played it for a while now because being that bad I felt like I was letting the rest of the team down.

 

Seems like perhaps tiers V or VI might be the place to return to to figure out things.  I suppose now all I need to do is pick a nationality.

 

I have no decent Russian crew but I do have a T-50 with a bad crew.  I like the line but there are a lot of games to be done before I even get 6th sense.

I have an AMX ELC bis but I'm not sure I want to go up the French autoloader line

Now I have an M5A1 Stuart and a crew with 6th sense because I had (and sold) the type 64.  Big issue here is getting past the medium Type T-34 in the Chinese line to get back into lights again.

I obviously have the T71 with an OK crew which is now no longer the last light in the line so whilst perhaps not ideal (Tier VII and an autoloader) it has to be considered.

The German line makes most sense.  I've owned/driven everything up to and including the SP1C and I have the Black Dog and it's the line with my best trained light crew.  historically I've not been good in any German Scout (the SP1C was best but only played 26 games total before I sold it).

 

So the excitement of a new line (Russian) but starting from zero with no help, Continue the American line from tier VII upwards because I hated the T21 with a passion and I'm not going back there, Resurrect the German line that I've played badly before with the advantage of having everything unlocked up to all the modules on the SPIC and a premium scout on that line.  The biggest issue I guess with the German line is that my historical stats will make judging any progress more difficult.

 

EDIT: Or push through the blocking medium on the Chinese line and perhaps get the Type 64 back.....

 

 

 


Edited by Havoc7926, 13 September 2017 - 11:55 AM.


Geno1isme #13 Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:03 PM

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The term "Scout" is kinda obsolete as tank classification since 9.18 and the Kindergarten-MM, previously it generally referred to Lights with +3 matchmaking.

Isharial #14 Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:08 PM

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the thing about lights is, your the eyes of the team, those that cannot spot their own targets rely on you and others to light up targets, otherwise they cant do anything

when I play lights its about lighting up the enemy in as many places as possible, while also minimising the risk to yourself, but the priority is still "spotting", damage comes late game when you have the speed to chase down the remaining enemy

sometimes you get a braindead team that doesn't shoot anything, but sometimes that's because your spotting in the wrong place, ive seen scouts spotting tanks round the other side of object and cliffs and expecting the TD behind them to shoot it... they cant shoot through walls and cliffs....


 

View PostHavoc7926, on 13 September 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

Thanks guys.  I get the fact that a pure 'scout' needs the assistance of their team to perform the role properly.  I also get that the amount of scouting you can do is map dependant and situation dependant.

 

What I'm thinking is that it may be pointless going down to tier III say to learn to scout and I know it's pointless me driving my black dog out of the garage because that's too high a tier for me to learn anything before I'm removed from the game.

 

 

use the m5A1 you have a crew in, its fast, agile and just like a light would be such as the blackdog, you would also get into the way lights play, or maybe, the chaffee?

I played ELC pre patch where it got nerfed in speed, but id say its still a potent light played right


 

id experiment around the T5/6 mark and see how it goes, then every so often, take the blackdog out and see how you fare


 

View PostGeno1isme, on 13 September 2017 - 12:03 PM, said:

The term "Scout" is kinda obsolete as tank classification since 9.18 and the Kindergarten-MM, previously it generally referred to Lights with +3 matchmaking.

 

but really, your still the eyes of the team, and still the "best" choice for such, specially early game, I certainly wouldn't send any medium vs a well driven light tank

TankkiPoju #15 Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:25 PM

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For current meta, it's much better to ask:

 

When does a light tank become a ninja damage dealer?

 

Because I have recently played T71 and gotten a few top tier games. Let me tell you, a T71 vs tier 5 tanks is not a pretty sight... for the tier 5s.

 

Imagine if a batchat could ctip TWO tier 8 medium tanks from full health. Yeah that's T71 vs tier 5 tanks.


Edited by TankkiPoju, 13 September 2017 - 12:26 PM.


CoDiGGo #16 Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:27 PM

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You need 6th sense + optics (good crew)/ binocs + some scout route or bush ( experience/skill) + escape plan ( you dont want to be noob sucide scout , you want to be a pro scout)

 

I would recommend chinese lights, because they are good and clones with similar gameplay

 

But remember, you need to observe good lights players first and what they do, to learn good map positions, without that you will be a useless 2 min suicide scout or pathetic sniper when open map


Edited by CoDiGGo, 13 September 2017 - 12:41 PM.


Cobra6 #17 Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:33 PM

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At tier 5 with the ELC your light tank actually becomes a (situational) scout, and continues to do so until tier 10 pretty much.

 

As a practice, at the start of the match you want to scout and then depending on what the enemy team does you either switch to damage dealing or continue to scout.

With your good viewrange you should always aim to be near the front-line as much as possible yet always leave yourself a means of escape, just like with an autoloader don't manoeuvre yourself into a position you can not get away from or where you don't have allies to back you up.

 

Whether you want to active spot or passive spot depends entirely on the team composition, map and individual game although some light tanks with great camo are more suited for passive spotting than others. A 13 90 for instance is better for passive spotting than say a T49 because the 13 90 will simply fit in more bushes due to it's size (and camo is directly tied to tank height)

 

Also, when you are bottom tier in your light tank rely more on spotting for your allies especially in the early stages of the match and try to do damage in the secondary stage.

If you are top tier, try to do both at the same time.

 

The best tier to learn light tank plays at is actually tier 7 and I suggest the WZ-131 personally because you don't have the autoloader to save you if you make positioning mistakes but the WZ-131 has got good camo and is very good on the move with shooting.

Also at tier 7 your viewrange still matters, it starts to become less relevant from tier 8 onwards as mediums will start to have the same viewrange as your light.

From tier 8 onwards lights become harder to play and from 6 downwards their firepower starts to become mediocre, so tier 7 is the best tier to learn it at.

 

Cobra 6


Edited by Cobra6, 13 September 2017 - 12:39 PM.


eldrak #18 Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:53 PM

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At tier 5 light tanks start to become more of their own class instead of just being whatever (small mediums or heavies).

This combined with general accuracy increases makes it pretty much the starting tier for scout playstyles.

Some exceptions exist of course.

 

If you're using wn8 to measure your learning progress it is slightly (majorly) flawed due to not counting assist damage.

 

As you're showing willingness to learn and work on your skills I bet you'll adapt to light tanks in short time. This mind set is what every player should aspire to.
Good luck!



Geno1isme #19 Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:55 PM

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View PostIsharial, on 13 September 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

but really, your still the eyes of the team, and still the "best" choice for such, specially early game, I certainly wouldn't send any medium vs a well driven light tank

 

Well, only thing I was trying to say is that there is no point anymore to separate between "Light" and "Scout". While certainly still not all (low-tier) Lights are made for scouting there is no longer the clear line.

 



Rati_Festa #20 Posted 13 September 2017 - 01:11 PM

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One of the worst traits I see in new players playing scouts is they get to a bush, spot and then open fire and get spotted/die. If you want to be a pure 'scout' then learn not to shoot :) even if its the most tempting of targets. As you make the spot look at your team and see where they are, if theres 3 tds on your team lined up... why should u shoot? Better to stay invisible let them blast the target to garage, u get the exp share and u live to make another spot.

 

Another hard to learn skill in a light is to survive until the end, you can be incredibly important in end games if you have arty on your team and the opposing team consist of heavies and slower tds. Your ability to flank comes into play as the enemy are wittled down in number, there is nothing worse for a heavy tank/TD player than a nimble light circling it and picking it to pieces.

 

Don't think about doing damage early game, just spot and then you will find that its a lot easier to get damage on the enemy when they are halved in number.







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