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APCR vs HEAT


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TungstenHitman #1 Posted 18 September 2017 - 03:55 PM

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Hi guys,

 

In any of the tanks I have that have HEAT as the premium round I feel a bit hard done by, but is this fair? I would take APCR any day of the week instead. APCR seems to be so much more versatile, forgiving and not so situational, they're basically the same as an AP round but with much more penetration and travel at the speed of light lol, excellent choice then. It's also this laser speed they have that makes them hit their target more often since that target has less time to get away or move out of line of fire, even when drunk and autolocked on a light tank lol.. definitely a noob friendly shell.

 

Whenever I play a tank that uses HEAT however it just seems like a bit of a lottery as to the shot actually doing any damage or not and a waste of credits most the time as they are pretty slow in velocity compared to the APCR which makes the chances of the target evading the shell more likely but not only that, it has to find a relatively flat part of armour regardless of thickness whereas the APCR can both track and damage a tank at the same time from various angles along with turrets and lower plates.. don't get me wrong and APCR can will bounce too but nowhere near like a HEAT. No biggy you might say but couple that slow shell velocity compared to the APCR along with the fact it must find relatively flat surfaces to pen.. and that means when you shot at the target it may well have been a flat surface but has since moved and is now not flat when the shell hits its mark. Does anyone else get a bit annoyed by HEAT rounds or is just me? Maybe I've just been unlucky with the HEAT, I don't think so do.. I mean, in 1vs1 close battle situations and the other guy has APCR vs my HEAT I'm like "damn it!"



Dava_117 #2 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:13 PM

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Both have advantage and disadvantage.

APCR don't suffer from spaced armour an get normalized (altough just 2° vs AP 5° ) , while HEAT bounce at 85° vs 70°of AP(CR).


Edited by Dava_117, 18 September 2017 - 04:15 PM.


MattieW #3 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:16 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 18 September 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Both have advantage and disadvantage.

APCR don't suffer from spaced armour an get normalized (altough just 2° vs AP 5° ) , while HEAT bounce at 85° vs 70°of AP(CR).

 

so what advantages does HEAT have over apcr?

Dava_117 #4 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:19 PM

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View PostMattieW, on 18 September 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

 

so what advantages does HEAT have over apcr?

You can try to pen at steeper angles, when other ammo would just bounce.

Also APCR lose more pen with distance than AP, while HEAT pen don't depends on distance.



Aikl #5 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:27 PM

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APCR losing more pen than AP is not a rule in WoT. According to at least the garage stats (hover over the shell of a selected tank), APCR is from what I can see always superior in terms of penetration at range. Often by quite a bit. Losing less penetration than APCR is not rare either. You could maaybe argue that it has something to do with rounds being from different eras, but from a balancing perspective it's mostly bullcrap.

 

Just look at the Lorraine 40t, which has the 100mm SA47. 232mm AP pen, loses 25mm at 500m. 263mm APCR pen, loses 10mm at 500m. The 90mm M3 is about the same story.
The only tank I believe APCR is a clear worse contestant at 500m (penetration-wise) is the BL-10. That thing actually has a fair bit of pen loss at 500m for APCR, close enough that normalization might make the effective penetration superior. You still get the increased shell speed, though, so no real need to use AP anyway.



K_A #6 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:31 PM

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I like the sizzling sound HEAT shells make :trollface:

Dava_117 #7 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:34 PM

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View PostAikl, on 18 September 2017 - 04:27 PM, said:

APCR losing more pen than AP is not a rule in WoT. According to at least the garage stats (hover over the shell of a selected tank), APCR is from what I can see always superior in terms of penetration at range. Often by quite a bit. Losing less penetration than APCR is not rare either. You could maaybe argue that it has something to do with rounds being from different eras, but from a balancing perspective it's mostly bullcrap.

 

Just look at the Lorraine 40t, which has the 100mm SA47. 232mm AP pen, loses 25mm at 500m. 263mm APCR pen, loses 10mm at 500m. The 90mm M3 is about the same story.
The only tank I believe APCR is a clear worse contestant at 500m (penetration-wise) is the BL-10. That thing actually has a fair bit of pen loss at 500m for APCR, close enough that normalization might make the effective penetration superior. You still get the increased shell speed, though, so no real need to use AP anyway.

 

May be it's one of the changed rules, like premium being worst than elited standard tanks. On the wiki was stated as true, but I didn't check that session from long time...

HundeWurst #8 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:37 PM

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I dont mind teh fast heat rounds at all. On tanks like E50m the heat is close to as fast as the APCR rounds are. Thats nice.

Aikl #9 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:39 PM

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View PostDava_117, on 18 September 2017 - 03:34 PM, said:

 

May be it's one of the changed rules, like premium being worst than elited standard tanks. On the wiki was stated as true, but I didn't check that session from long time...

 

The Wiki is pretty outdated, but it was updated to reflect what essentially is a nonsense mess of penetration-and-distance mechanics:

Spoiler

 

It's like two weeks since I felt compelled to edit the AMX CDC article - which made claims that were outdated, wrong and/or completely fudging false.

 

View PostWunderWurst, on 18 September 2017 - 03:37 PM, said:

I dont mind teh fast heat rounds at all. On tanks like E50m the heat is close to as fast as the APCR rounds are. Thats nice.
 

 

Huh, TIL. Makes it a bit more interesting for HEAT-spamming, I guess. 

 

59-Patton and M56 Scorpion actually have HEAT rounds faster than their AP rounds - unlike e.g. the M4 Rev, which gets a far more average shell speed for its HEAT.


Edited by Aikl, 18 September 2017 - 04:41 PM.


AliceUnchained #10 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:40 PM

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View PostMattieW, on 18 September 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

so what advantages does HEAT have over apcr?

 

*Edited

 

View PostAikl, on 18 September 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

The Wiki is pretty outdated, but it was updated to reflect what essentially is a nonsense mess of penetration-and-distance mechanics:

 

If my memory serves me correctly, the penetration drop off is connected to the gun Tier; higher the gun Tier, less drop off there will be. But that is how it was some time ago, don't know for sure whether it still applies.

 

 


Edited by Nohe21, 19 September 2017 - 10:14 AM.
*This post has been edited by the moderation team due to non-constructive content.


Shivvering #11 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:45 PM

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View PostMattieW, on 18 September 2017 - 04:16 PM, said:

 

so what advantages does HEAT have over apcr?

 

For the most part if you are aiming at a turret, HEAT is better. Tracks/spaced, APCR is better. 

AliceUnchained #12 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:48 PM

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View PostShivvering, on 18 September 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

 

For the most part if you are aiming at a turret, HEAT is better. Tracks/spaced, APCR is better. 

 

Except of course that the mantlet on that very turret is considered spaced armor as well...

Shivvering #13 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:49 PM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 18 September 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

 

Except of course that the mantlet on that very turret is considered spaced armor as well...

 

Some turrets also have spaced armour. Not everything has to be in crayon...

AliceUnchained #14 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:51 PM

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View PostShivvering, on 18 September 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

Some turrets also have spaced armour. Not everything has to be in crayon...

 

Yes, that's exactly what I just said albeit a bit more specific. *Edited


Edited by Nohe21, 19 September 2017 - 10:17 AM.
*This post has been edited by the moderation team due to non-constructive content.


Enforcer1975 #15 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:54 PM

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View PostK_A, on 18 September 2017 - 04:31 PM, said:

I like the sizzling sound HEAT shells make :trollface:

 

This sizzling is better...but similar. :trollface:



AliceUnchained #16 Posted 18 September 2017 - 04:56 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 18 September 2017 - 04:54 PM, said:

This sizzling is better...but similar. 

 



TungstenHitman #17 Posted 18 September 2017 - 05:53 PM

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Well shouldn't HEAT rounds get the same increased velocity similar to APCR? I mean, from a customer point of view, is that acceptable to be forced to use inferior merchandise? If we are shelling out(no pun intended) premium rates of credits for premium ammo, why shouldn't we get a premium round with similar levels of performance with the acception of pen and damage? Why would anyone be happy with a premium ammo that can't pen the same angles as the other player or gets swallowed up by some 20mm of spaced armour or tracks or target just barely escapes a situation the velocity of an APCR would have killed? These details are the difference between winning and losing of close battles or cost a very special and rare win. The player with the APCR gets the damage and kills while the other guy gets charged heavily for zero damage and looks like an idiot

 

BTW- I'm not a gold spammer but everyone should carry enough to kill at least 1-2 tanks worth for when the situation needs that extra punch and not to carry any is just plain stupid


Edited by TungstenHitman, 18 September 2017 - 06:01 PM.


Dava_117 #18 Posted 18 September 2017 - 06:13 PM

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View PostTungstenHitman, on 18 September 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

Well shouldn't HEAT rounds get the same increased velocity similar to APCR? I mean, from a customer point of view, is that acceptable to be forced to use inferior merchandise? If we are shelling out(no pun intended) premium rates of credits for premium ammo, why shouldn't we get a premium round with similar levels of performance with the acception of pen and damage? Why would anyone be happy with a premium ammo that can't pen the same angles as the other player or gets swallowed up by some 20mm of spaced armour or tracks or target just barely escapes a situation the velocity of an APCR would have killed? These details are the difference between winning and losing of close battles or cost a very special and rare win. The player with the APCR gets the damage and kills while the other guy gets charged heavily for zero damage and looks like an idiot

 

BTW- I'm not a gold spammer but everyone should carry enough to kill at least 1-2 tanks worth for when the situation needs that extra punch and not to carry any is just plain stupid

 

There are similar arguments for HEAT. Like a well inclined thin armur that you can't overmach and would just bounce all ypur APCR. You may be able to pen it with HEAT instead.

Shivvering #19 Posted 18 September 2017 - 06:55 PM

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View PostAliceUnchained, on 18 September 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

 

Yes, that's exactly what I just said albeit a bit more specific. *Edited

 

*Edited Yes, some parts of a turret will bounce HEAT, some will bounce APCR too - hence the use of the word generally.

Edited by Nohe21, 19 September 2017 - 10:16 AM.
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to non-constructive content.


AliceUnchained #20 Posted 18 September 2017 - 07:25 PM

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View PostShivvering, on 18 September 2017 - 06:55 PM, said:

*Edited Yes, some parts of a turret will bounce HEAT, some will bounce APCR too - hence the use of the word generally.

 

*Edited

 

Now do try to focus on what is actually written hmm? HEAT doesn't bounce on spaced armor, it fails to penetrate. End result may be the same, but what precedes that is not. And your use of the word 'generally' really doesn't cover what you now mention as you failed to introduce any context in which it could be interpreted as such. More importantly though, you didn't even use the word 'generally' before. Nor is any what you write now a reasonable, coherent follow up to your previous posts # 11 and # 13. 


Edited by Nohe21, 19 September 2017 - 10:19 AM.
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to Off Topic content.





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