Jump to content


Why are unbalanced maps such a big deal?


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

gav00 #1 Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:09 PM

    Staff Sergeant

  • Player
  • 7208 battles
  • 468
  • Member since:
    10-13-2013

There's a 50% chance you will spawn on the overpowered side anyway, so surely it all works out fairly?

 

I bring this up because it seems to be the biggest hurdle WG has to clear in order to bring a new map to us. But would it really be so bad if they were a little unbalanced?



Isharial #2 Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:44 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 18383 battles
  • 2,132
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    12-19-2015

well they want equality as much as possible

 

with a random team setup, you cant guarantee that the teams will be fair and balanced, but you can guarantee the map you play on is... that's what they want to be able to do and say

if you get a bad team, there's always something you could have done yourself to try to counter that a little more

but you cant counter it if the map is unbalanced and gives the enemy team even more of an edge against you


 

however, some maps weren't quite to that extent and you could argue many things are unbalanced in this game as it is...



jack_timber #3 Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:55 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 31233 battles
  • 1,616
  • Member since:
    07-26-2014

I reckon it's down to personal preference.

I, for instance, like to spawning south side of Artic and North side of Malinovka...

Seem to do better when this happens or just had happier memories....



Homer_J #4 Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:02 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Beta Tester
  • 27094 battles
  • 27,749
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-03-2010

View Postgav00, on 24 September 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

 But would it really be so bad if they were a little unbalanced?

 

They will always be a little unbalanced unless they are entirely symmetrical but what we don't want is people suiciding because they started at the wrong side.

 

But that's not the biggest hurdle to them bringing us new maps.  Currently they are reworking all the maps to HD and want to release them all at once so any new maps will only delay the release of HD maps.

 

That and the WoT playerbase hate new maps anyway.



Aikl #5 Posted 24 September 2017 - 08:03 PM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 25141 battles
  • 4,050
  • [-MM] -MM
  • Member since:
    04-13-2011

While I don't consider it a problem to be a few percent towards either side, some are rather bad offenders. Sand River assault, for example.

 

It's not really a problem in itself, but limiting the amount of factors that can skew the results isn't necessarily a bad idea. That's kind of why they are balancing classes and what not. It's not gonna fix everything, but roflstomps (regardless of which side you're on) aren't much fun. That being said, removing maps on the basis of one side winning 2-3% more games isn't necessarily 'worth it' in that regard. It's not like that was the biggest problem with e.g. Northwest.



Enforcer1975 #6 Posted 24 September 2017 - 10:26 PM

    General

  • Player
  • 18508 battles
  • 9,858
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    05-04-2014
Most of the imbalance comes from players who can't adapt their gameplay. Stupid moves work every now and then but most of the time they won't and latter is what they can't or don't want to change because of habits. A team with very good players who can work around a bad situation can turn around situations that seemed lost by doing something bad players deem bad gameplay because they can't think out of the box.

Edited by Enforcer1975, 24 September 2017 - 10:26 PM.


Version43 #7 Posted 24 September 2017 - 11:03 PM

    Corporal

  • Player
  • 6521 battles
  • 180
  • [0N] 0N
  • Member since:
    12-07-2013

View Postgav00, on 24 September 2017 - 06:09 PM, said:

There's a 50% chance you will spawn on the overpowered side anyway, so surely it all works out fairly?

 

I bring this up because it seems to be the biggest hurdle WG has to clear in order to bring a new map to us. But would it really be so bad if they were a little unbalanced?

 

It's like old South Coast (Crimea) map. I would prefer north all day but south would be OK compared to Paris/Pilsen.



magkiln #8 Posted 25 September 2017 - 01:50 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 21980 battles
  • 712
  • [EKKE] EKKE
  • Member since:
    09-21-2015

View PostHomer_J, on 24 September 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

 

But that's not the biggest hurdle to them bringing us new maps.  Currently they are reworking all the maps to HD and want to release them all at once so any new maps will only delay the release of HD maps.

 

 

That, and the new physics make it a lot more complicated to create a map. We don't want a repeat of the old Overlord, where you could fall through the map. Unfortunately, when they finally release a new map, it's always another city-map anyway. (Yes, Stalingrad, Kharkov and Paris, I'm looking at you)



Homer_J #9 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:15 PM

    Field Marshal

  • Beta Tester
  • 27094 battles
  • 27,749
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    09-03-2010

View Postmagkiln, on 25 September 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

 

 Unfortunately, when they finally release a new map, it's always another city-map anyway. (Yes, Stalingrad, Kharkov and Paris, I'm looking at you)

 

Unfortunately for years that's what the playerbase were asking for.  Arty unfriendly maps.

NUKLEAR_SLUG #10 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:18 PM

    Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 26628 battles
  • 1,628
  • Member since:
    06-13-2015

View PostHomer_J, on 25 September 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

 

Unfortunately for years that's what the playerbase were asking for.  Arty unfriendly maps.

 

Yes it's a bad idea to listen too closely to your playerbase because half the time they don't even know what they want and the other half they only think they know what they do want.

WhoCares01 #11 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:18 PM

    Sergeant

  • Player
  • 11525 battles
  • 224
  • Member since:
    04-21-2015

View Postgav00, on 24 September 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

There's a 50% chance you will spawn on the overpowered side anyway, so surely it all works out fairly?

 

I bring this up because it seems to be the biggest hurdle WG has to clear in order to bring a new map to us. But would it really be so bad if they were a little unbalanced?

 

Balancing over statistics works for "pure" random over a high number of battles, but it would disqualify such a map for competetive play, or modes with lower number of battles played, like ranked. So the attempt to have all maps balanced and as such "acceptable" for such more sensitive game modes makes sense.

magkiln #12 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:48 PM

    Warrant Officer

  • Player
  • 21980 battles
  • 712
  • [EKKE] EKKE
  • Member since:
    09-21-2015

View PostHomer_J, on 25 September 2017 - 02:15 PM, said:

 

Unfortunately for years that's what the playerbase were asking for.  Arty unfriendly maps.

 

Well, they are certainly arty-unfriendly. Aso, light tank unfriendly and unarmoured-TD unfriendly. Ah well, with the new artillery mechanics, perhaps WG will take a break from corridor maps (Hey, I can hope, right. :P)

arthurwellsley #13 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:50 PM

    Major

  • Player
  • 50519 battles
  • 2,525
  • [-B-C-] -B-C-
  • Member since:
    05-11-2011

Removed map list; 

  • 5.1 Dragon Ridge= beautiful but uneven
  • 5.2 Hidden Village= half the map next to useless
  • 5.3 Komarin= interesting map, some prefer it at different stages of it's development. It had alot of development
  • 5.4 Northwest= uneven map.
  • 5.5 Pearl River= gun depression.
  • 5.6 Port  = gun depession. Bigger version of Widepark?
  • 5.7 Province   = low tier only, re-made as Mittenguard which is better.
  • 5.8 Ruinberg on fire= worst map ever made. Putting Ruinberg on fire, with the effects players on high end rigs were blinded. Never bring it back
  • 5.9 Severogorsk   = another map that changed over time. Arguably both a gun depression map, and one favouring one side more than another.
  • 5.10 South Coast    = an early version of Overlord?

 



wolfsrain #14 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:52 PM

    Corporal

  • Beta Tester
  • 49288 battles
  • 111
  • [LASO] LASO
  • Member since:
    11-15-2010
Well, i would be happy, if they would bring the old maps backs. And maybe even bringing the old Swamp back?! The whole chaos on that map...Little cover, you would have to move a lot. So many maps removed, when theycould just rework them a bit....

SaintMaddenus #15 Posted 25 September 2017 - 03:10 PM

    Second Lieutenant

  • Player
  • 33167 battles
  • 1,120
  • [WJDE] WJDE
  • Member since:
    03-04-2011

View PostNUKLEAR_SLUG, on 25 September 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

 

Yes it's a bad idea to listen too closely to your playerbase because half the time they don't even know what they want and the other half they only think they know what they do want.

 

and the other half don't even think..... :hiding:

Lycopersicon #16 Posted 25 September 2017 - 03:59 PM

    Lieutenant Сolonel

  • Player
  • 10537 battles
  • 3,494
  • Member since:
    07-30-2014
I am quite cool with reasonable imbalance and I much prefer this to exact mirror maps. How much imbalance is reasonable is, of course, arguable. Let us say that in case of one side's win percentage between 45-55%, I would call it totally balanced; between 55-65% for the advantageous side, I (as a hypothetical developer) would look for ways to reduce one side's advantage but would not worry too much, it is still perfecty playable; above that, I would say that the map needs serious attention from developers. Of course, in competitive play, balance is more important, but hardly anyone cares about the competitive scene, and in random games, well, you'll lose some anyway - might as well be partly because the map happened to be backwards this time.

Edited by Lycopersicon, 25 September 2017 - 04:00 PM.


Isharial #17 Posted 25 September 2017 - 05:25 PM

    Captain

  • Player
  • 18383 battles
  • 2,132
  • [T-D-U] T-D-U
  • Member since:
    12-19-2015

View Postarthurwellsley, on 25 September 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Removed map list;

  • 5.1 Dragon Ridge= beautiful but uneven
  • 5.2 Hidden Village= half the map next to useless
  • 5.3 Komarin= interesting map, some prefer it at different stages of it's development. It had alot of development
  • 5.4 Northwest= uneven map.
  • 5.5 Pearl River= gun depression.
  • 5.6 Port  = gun depession. Bigger version of Widepark?
  • 5.7 Province   = low tier only, re-made as Mittenguard which is better.
  • 5.8 Ruinberg on fire= worst map ever made. Putting Ruinberg on fire, with the effects players on high end rigs were blinded. Never bring it back
  • 5.9 Severogorsk   = another map that changed over time. Arguably both a gun depression map, and one favouring one side more than another.
  • 5.10 South Coast    = an early version of Overlord?

 

 

tbf, you can almost add that horrid pos called "Fjords" to that list... it requires a turret to even have a chance at fighting and carrying, as the majority of encounters happen on the corners unless you kemp A8, C4/5 behind a red building, or J/K9 on the island... I call that imbalanced if anything...


 

the ones with gun depression really don't matter that much anymore as the latest buff trend is "give it gun depression"..... may as well re-add those if anything


 

View PostLycopersicon, on 25 September 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

I am quite cool with reasonable imbalance and I much prefer this to exact mirror maps. How much imbalance is reasonable is, of course, arguable. Let us say that in case of one side's win percentage between 45-55%, I would call it totally balanced; between 55-65% for the advantageous side, I (as a hypothetical developer) would look for ways to reduce one side's advantage but would not worry too much, it is still perfecty playable; above that, I would say that the map needs serious attention from developers. Of course, in competitive play, balance is more important, but hardly anyone cares about the competitive scene, and in random games, well, you'll lose some anyway - might as well be partly because the map happened to be backwards this time.

 

^^^^^^^^

 

it depends on how imbalanced it is.. a slight difference wont be noticeable


 


 



Browarszky #18 Posted 25 September 2017 - 11:46 PM

    Major

  • Player
  • 14906 battles
  • 2,790
  • [I-S-L] I-S-L
  • Member since:
    12-03-2013
Seems in WG's thesaurus 'balanced' occurs under the entry for 'boring'....:sceptic:

HundeWurst #19 Posted 26 September 2017 - 12:03 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 67602 battles
  • 4,187
  • [FAME] FAME
  • Member since:
    02-06-2012

I dont quit know how you have fun while playing but for me it isnt fun to spawn and already know before the 30 seconds countdown even started that its going to be a loss and bad game.

 

Its not really motivating me to play serious even though next time I spawn on the map I might get the good spawn and win by default, if not to many tomatoes are making the biggest mistake you can make.

 

View PostHomer_J, on 24 September 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

 

 

That and the WoT playerbase hate new maps anyway.

 

Who is hating new maps? As far as I know everyone here only hates the rediculous map design which many and more consider an epic failure.

I would love to see how many people are still playing grand battles. I really do. I mean that map was the pinnicle of failed map design (also the latest and "greatest" Wargaming came up with).

 

It would be really nice if WG would give the players a map creator tool. That would be some real nice business. But I guess its hard to make a map creator which can be used by anyone.


Edited by WunderWurst, 26 September 2017 - 12:07 AM.


HundeWurst #20 Posted 26 September 2017 - 12:21 AM

    Brigadier

  • Player
  • 67602 battles
  • 4,187
  • [FAME] FAME
  • Member since:
    02-06-2012

View Postarthurwellsley, on 25 September 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Removed map list; 

  • 5.1 Dragon Ridge= beautiful but uneven
  • 5.2 Hidden Village= half the map next to useless
  • 5.3 Komarin= interesting map, some prefer it at different stages of it's development. It had alot of development
  • 5.4 Northwest= uneven map.
  • 5.5 Pearl River= gun depression.
  • 5.6 Port  = gun depession. Bigger version of Widepark?
  • 5.7 Province   = low tier only, re-made as Mittenguard which is better.
  • 5.8 Ruinberg on fire= worst map ever made. Putting Ruinberg on fire, with the effects players on high end rigs were blinded. Never bring it back
  • 5.9 Severogorsk   = another map that changed over time. Arguably both a gun depression map, and one favouring one side more than another.
  • 5.10 South Coast    = an early version of Overlord?

 

Some comments from my side:

Dragon Ridge - I played that map back in the day but to be honest I dont even really remember that thing any more. I however do remember that roughly 85% of the entire map where next to useless. Not like thats the same thing for all the later additions to the game...

 

Hidden Village - Would fit perfectly in the current rotation and while it was flawed it would still be better than at least 10 of the total trash level of maps we have right now in the rotation.

 

Komarin - The Daddy of the maps we are getting right now. A nice and cozy and quit big camping spot behind the cap circles for every team. Rediculous OP spots making the map close to unplayable. Well all the new maps feature the exact same problems....

 

Northwest - I was such a relieve when that abomination finally got slain. It was just one thing: A bad map.

 

Pearl River - Exactly the kind of map we have right now. I did not mind it at all (maybe others did) but that map had the same 85% useless area 15% brawling thing going. I dont even know why they removed that map. I think that it was MUCH better than half the maps we have right now...

 

Port - That map cannot work with the new "physics". Also it was biased towards one spawn. Its good that its gone.

 

Province - Not much to day. I remember the old days when you played that map in clownwars. Kinda stupid, but so are Mines, Tundra and all these maps.

 

Ruinberg on Fire - not much so say than that it was an exact clone of the standard map.

 

Severogorsk - Could have been reworked into a good and really nice map. Got deleted instead. Well It was very close to the mindless map Abbey anyway. Mindless close combat brawling. Could however have been fixed if one of the flanks would have been opend uo completly.

 

South Coast - Was a bad design since one spawn could just camp in base. Has however nothing in common with Overlord as it actually had range enagagement everywhere and not just mindless stupid close combat brawling.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users