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Grille 15 aim time....


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Manicgin #1 Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:10 AM

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Unfortunately I have a grille 15. All crew have 4+ skills. According to what I read it has an amazing accurate gun with a mere 1.41 sec aim time.....

I have found that this is not the case. Roating the 'turret' to a target, the bloom is such that the aim time is FOUR seconds plus. The tank itself is NOT moving. Am I missing somthing here? I compare it to my E50 and E50m and it's not in the same league.

Even when fully aimed, taking care, the shell seams to go anywhere within the reticle.

For a long barrelled antitank gun the shell also travels much too slowly and has abymal pen.



Spurtung #2 Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:22 AM

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View PostManicgin, on 25 September 2017 - 01:10 AM, said:

Even when fully aimed, taking care, the shell seams to go anywhere within the reticle.

How is this a problem?



komunistu33 #3 Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:30 AM

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View PostSpurtung, on 25 September 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

How is this a problem?

 

Well it is the "most accurate gun" in the game* for starters..

Shaade_Silentpaw #4 Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:31 AM

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The grille has to make some trade-offs for it's ridiculous mobility and wide gun arc.

I don't know how your aim time is 4 seconds, but shots going anywhere within the reticle is how WoT works.

Fully aiming only makes that reticle smaller, it doesn't take the RNG out of the shot withing that circle.



Spurtung #5 Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:34 AM

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View Postkomunistu33, on 25 September 2017 - 01:30 AM, said:

 

Well it is the "most accurate gun" in the game* for starters..

 

I'm sorry, is there any tank shooting outside its reticle?

HassenderZerhacker #6 Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:43 AM

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View PostSpurtung, on 25 September 2017 - 12:34 AM, said:

I'm sorry, is there any tank shooting outside its reticle?

 

yes... most of my tanks do that from time to time. usually when I am fully aimed in on a tomato that is 2 tiers above.

Spurtung #7 Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:51 AM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 25 September 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

View PostSpurtung, on 25 September 2017 - 12:34 AM, said:

I'm sorry, is there any tank shooting outside its reticle?

 

yes... most of my tanks do that from time to time. usually when I am fully aimed in on a tomato that is 2 tiers above.

They do? Remarkable, just post one of those replays anytime so we can report that bug.



Manicgin #8 Posted 25 September 2017 - 12:56 AM

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I obviously need to clarify. Yes I know the shell can go anywhere within the reticle but with an emphasis towards the centre ( I know WG altered this sometime back to have a little less emphasis) compared to E50 and my other tanks, this 'soft stat' seems worse on the grille. As for the aim time, it still stands, I keep checking. It remains at closer to 4 seconds when rotating (NOT the tank itself). My E100 is better!

The numbers say "most accurate gun in game" (the ones we see anyway) but in practice, far from it.



Aikl #9 Posted 25 September 2017 - 01:04 AM

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While I'm sure nothing at all is wrong at your end, consider that guns with bad soft stats (dispersion, mainly) might be more affected by mouse movement than others. Supposedly waiting an extra half second might help. Might be easier with the server sight (preferably a mod that allows you to use both at the same time).

 

If you want to check if this is just observational bias or a theory worthy of our tinfoil hats, compare "normal" aiming with autoaiming in a training room. Autoaim is server-side, and in theory the best way to aim at stationary targets when center of mass is most important.

 

 

View Postkomunistu33, on 24 September 2017 - 11:30 PM, said:

 

Well it is the "most accurate gun" in the game* for starters..

 

While OP was rather unclear, this doesn't do wonders for my impression of your reading comprehension. Maybe this is simply a feature of non-subhumans...?

Shaade_Silentpaw #10 Posted 25 September 2017 - 01:09 AM

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View PostManicgin, on 24 September 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

I obviously need to clarify. Yes I know the shell can go anywhere within the reticle but with an emphasis towards the centre ( I know WG altered this sometime back to have a little less emphasis) compared to E50 and my other tanks, this 'soft stat' seems worse on the grille.

The numbers say "most accurate gun in game" (the ones we see anyway) but in practice, far from it.

 

That makes more sense, and is something I can honestly say I've noticed myself in my own experience with the Grille 15.

I find a similar thing happening in my Jagdpanther II with it's top gun, and there was another similar thread recently about the Jagdpanzer E100 from someone else.

 

It does feel like certain guns on certain tanks have a higher tendency to send shells toward the outer area of the reticle than others - but without any hard data, it can't be proved and really could all just be bad luck. :\



Matcorr #11 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:27 AM

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I got so sick of the aiming with this thing I sold it, people say you should never sell tier 10 tanks but I couldn't handle fully aimed shots missing from 50m away.

Balc0ra #12 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:48 AM

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View PostHassenderZerhacker, on 25 September 2017 - 12:43 AM, said:

 

yes... most of my tanks do that from time to time. usually when I am fully aimed in on a tomato that is 2 tiers above.

 

And the shell is not 100% representation of it's actual shell path, or location vs the server. Nor is your turret or aim if you have spikes or packet loss. As that's usually the cause of shells that go off the aim if you lead a target etc. As the server still says you aim at a different spot vs your client.

 

 



Homer_J #13 Posted 25 September 2017 - 02:59 AM

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View PostManicgin, on 25 September 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

As for the aim time, it still stands, I keep checking. It remains at closer to 4 seconds when rotating (NOT the tank itself). 

 

Do bear in mind that the aim time is the time for the dispersion to reduce to one third of it's original size.  It is not the time it takes to go from full bloom to fully aimed.  This is the same for all tanks, which is why it''s a fairly useless stat on it's own.



kiolvi #14 Posted 25 September 2017 - 04:36 AM

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I could say something about grille's accuracy and how it compares for example to russian tanks accuracy. But I won't. Last time moderators gave me a warning. Let's just say that it is a good old fashioned troll cannon and the accuracy is not even near as good as stats would suggest. 

 

Protip: Aim at least 1 second longer than needed, then it might actually hit where you aim.


Edited by kiolvi, 25 September 2017 - 04:37 AM.


suvicze #15 Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:07 AM

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View PostShaade_Silentpaw, on 25 September 2017 - 12:31 AM, said:

The grille has to make some trade-offs for it's ridiculous mobility and wide gun arc.

I don't know how your aim time is 4 seconds, but shots going anywhere within the reticle is how WoT works.

Fully aiming only makes that reticle smaller, it doesn't take the RNG out of the shot withing that circle.

 

It already had trade offs lol... Ridiculous mobility is just an imagination. It has good forward speed on road, that's pretty much it. (It is the same thing as with Scorpion, ridiculous mobility yeah, moving forward) It turns like a turtle and after last nerfs it even goes backwards slower than it used to. It is also quite tall, has no armor and camo is bad which means that you are spotted a lot and you can be shot at sooner than you can shoot when you try ridge fighting.

Accuracy is good (on paper) for 15cm gun no doubt, but the difference between 0,3 and 0,4 is pretty miniscule if the 0,4 gun will have better dispersion values. And considering the shots can go pretty much all over the aiming circle, at range you will still have half the tank in it. Aiming time is the same, as long as the dispersion is crap as it is, the aim time is just a dream.

This tank simply trades too much for good forward speed which takes it forever to reach unless on road and good gun arc.

In its current form, T9 is better in every way except forward speed which is still enough to reach places in time.

Just reduce top speed to 40, give it T9 dispersion values for 12,8 gun and increase the penetration of HEAT shells to 370. That way it will at least finally have accurate gun which it is supposed to have and still be fast enough to reach places + will still have crap camo and armor.



roachex #16 Posted 25 September 2017 - 06:19 AM

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Fully aimed shots have greatly more percentage to fly near center of reticle. Even slight adjustment will greatly increase chance of shot anywere within reticle.

Full speed movement & rotation will crap on reticle bloom. Try locking turret when possible, to reduce unnecesarry turret bloom.

I now your pain, but it is not because of fully aimed - it is because slight adjustment just before a shot.

And most accurate gun ingame is Strv 103B while in siege mode.

tankqull #17 Posted 25 September 2017 - 07:33 AM

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View PostManicgin, on 24 September 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

I obviously need to clarify. Yes I know the shell can go anywhere within the reticle but with an emphasis towards the centre ( I know WG altered this sometime back to have a little less emphasis) compared to E50 and my other tanks, this 'soft stat' seems worse on the grille. As for the aim time, it still stands, I keep checking. It remains at closer to 4 seconds when rotating (NOT the tank itself). My E100 is better!

The numbers say "most accurate gun in game" (the ones we see anyway) but in practice, far from it.

 

well the problem is that the displayed aim time is the time to reduce your max reticle diameter by 1/3rd. thus your observed ~4sec. the reason why your e100 aims "faster" is that its base reticle size is significant smaller due to vert. stabs and a turret traverse difference of 0.28 in favor of the e100.

and most accurate gun doesent say anything about the time it needs to become the most acurate gun ;)

 

View Postkiolvi, on 25 September 2017 - 03:36 AM, said:

I could say something about grille's accuracy and how it compares for example to russian tanks accuracy. But I won't. Last time moderators gave me a warning. Let's just say that it is a good old fashioned troll cannon and the accuracy is not even near as good as stats would suggest. 

 

Protip: Aim at least 1 second longer than needed, then it might actually hit where you aim.

 

pro pro tip use the server reticle and you will see why...


Edited by tankqull, 25 September 2017 - 07:35 AM.


hiXhaX #18 Posted 25 September 2017 - 08:15 AM

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View Posttankqull, on 25 September 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

 

well the problem is that the displayed aim time is the time to reduce your max reticle diameter by 1/3rd. thus your observed ~4sec. the reason why your e100 aims "faster" is that its base reticle size is significant smaller due to vert. stabs and a turret traverse difference of 0.28 in favor of the e100.

exactly. As the bloom lets your recticle grow by like 15 times (well I dont know, but a lot), it takes several aimtimes to get it to minimum size again. This "aimtime" stat in wot does not show the actual time it takes to aim completely. It just tells you how long it takes to get your aiming circle down to 1/3 of its size.



Kozzy #19 Posted 25 September 2017 - 08:24 AM

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View PostHomer_J, on 25 September 2017 - 01:59 AM, said:

 

Do bear in mind that the aim time is the time for the dispersion to reduce to one third of it's original size.  It is not the time it takes to go from full bloom to fully aimed.  This is the same for all tanks, which is why it''s a fairly useless stat on it's own.

 

I've always wondered about this.  I'm sure it is a stat to try and give parity in comparing wildly different guns.  Do we know if there is a 'max bloom' stat?  Like if you were to spin your KV2 around while drive like a madman, is there a maximum amount of bloom that can be reached, if so, is this number available anywhere?  I would like to be able to calculate a tank's aim time based on the time between 'max bloom' and 'fully aimed'.

tankqull #20 Posted 25 September 2017 - 08:48 AM

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View PostKozzy, on 25 September 2017 - 07:24 AM, said:

 

I've always wondered about this.  I'm sure it is a stat to try and give parity in comparing wildly different guns.  Do we know if there is a 'max bloom' stat?  Like if you were to spin your KV2 around while drive like a madman, is there a maximum amount of bloom that can be reached, if so, is this number available anywhere?  I would like to be able to calculate a tank's aim time based on the time between 'max bloom' and 'fully aimed'.

t = AT * ln(fD) * 0.875 / (0.00375*GTL + 0.5)
Where AT is the listed aim time stat, and fD is the factor "dispersion". ln is the natural logaritm function. GTL is the basic training level for the gunner in %. If you use vents or have the brothers in arms perk, you must add 5 to GTL for each of them. Also on tanks with both a commander and a gunner in the crew, the gunner receive an additional bonus of 10% of the commanders training level.

source: http://forum.worldof...75#entry5512275


Edited by tankqull, 25 September 2017 - 08:48 AM.





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