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Pushing a flank


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Noo_Noo #1 Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:51 PM

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After our some advice from the better players out there if i may. 

had a few games in my one and only Tier 10 today that really stood out where it was obvious to me that we would lose one flank. This was either from looking at the team make ups during the countdown or shortly after the game starts and you see everyone move off. 

This signals to me means we need to push the other flank and do it quickly. I dont mind playing aggressively (I'm not the best at it but do try)  but what I've found is that even though we may have numbers many others in the team are too passive or simply dont recognise the issue, even if I ask to push in chat. Of course going alone is suicide so you end up stuck trying to pick off damage and await the inevitable problem of being surrounded. 

I would also like to say that it did work once today and that was mainly due to a friendly T54 ltwt who obviously recognised an opportunity and went for it. (Enemy Lorrainne was reloading) Thing is 2 of us recognised his push and went with him. It won us the game. 

 

Conversely, had another game where 7 heavily armoured tanks including an E100, FV215b and some other TD's camped the 1 line on Prokhorovka leaving us very thin elsewhere. They sat there all game, didn't push as the everywhere else slowly collapsed and the map clearly showed that they weren't facing a huge amount of counter fire (you could see the rest of the enemy team on the minimap). In the end the enemy revealed themselves to be 2 STRV's and a Defender. Hardly a shot was shared between them. 
With hindsight I probably should have gone over and tried to spot for them. 

Thoughts and insight please

 



Userext #2 Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:55 PM

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If enemy has a lot of TDs, pushing a flank ends with bloodbath. Don't do it.

not as simple as you might think. it's mostly situational that the variables can change way too much to say anything accurate.



Captain_Kremen0 #3 Posted 11 October 2017 - 11:15 PM

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You could have spotted for them and died with no shots fired on them.

clixor #4 Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:46 AM

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I think there are several issues.

 

First, a lot of players don't look at the map (or have it set on the smallest size), and even if they do they can't really process the information. Also, not everybody has the 'last spotted tank position' enabled, so information that you may have may not be available for the other player.

 

Then, nobody likes to take the first hit, especially by the hard hitting td's at tier10. 

 

Another issue is that players see a few heavies on the other flank and think they have time to play carefully, in combination with lack of map awareness they just don't realize the other flank is going to be overrun. This leads them to only take action when it's already too late, and then also with too much risky moves with shaves off way more HP than is needed. So even when they win their flank, eventually, they don't have much hp left to fight.

 

Lastly, a lot of bad-average players are only able to pen like two or three shots in an entire battle, every single battle they play. If they know this, then ofcourse these kind of players a bit reluctant fighting mauses and the like where they have to do a lot of dmg.

 

The only thing what you can do, is to provide vision, so that at least teammates are a bit more sure of what they are facing. And then really lead charges, do damage. This way bad players can even perform decently if they survive a bit longer and aren't under a lot of pressure. In short, try to ENABLE your teammates to perform better.

 

But yeah, this is i think one of the hardest part of this game, and even if you try your max you will still have players just camping outside of draw distance while they could have had easy shots.



Captain_Kremen0 #5 Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:49 AM

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Lack of map awareness is an issue - I always had a small map until came onto these here forums; lack of a proper (or even halfarsed) tutorial that is unskippable?

Aikl #6 Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:04 AM

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The 'pied piper' approach can work rather well at times, and if the situation calls for "push or lose" you might as well do it. Sometimes it means, well, 'tactically losing all your hitpoints' or failing completely. For some that's accetable, to others it's not. 

 

That aside, some flanks are good to push, others aren't. That's why valley on Lakeville is regarded as really bad. You'll survive for a long time if you want, you can deal quite a bit of damage, but it's ultimately an extremely slow flank that ends in a no-mans-land enemy base that's very vulnerable to sniping (the 'survive' and 'damage' parts are why some players just love to drive there - though another aspect is that Lakeville can be an extremely shitty map).
Some maps are bad for attacking on anyway. On Overlord there are very few places where you're safe from the redline-camping TDs, or can progress without taking too many shots from key positions. The 9/0-line to some extent, but it's still somewhat vulnerable to counterattacks.

 

Alas, it's all part of the game. Not getting too annoyed when you get a boring map and a useless team is key to keep having fun. If your team is useless/passive, you might be better off camping yourself. No reason to risk your bacon unless you think it's beneficial to the end result. Best-case your conservation of health points can let you deal with multiple weak enemy tanks late-game. Worst-case you'll die with some damage done and a wee bit smarter.


Edited by Aikl, 12 October 2017 - 09:05 AM.


cu_chulainn_ #7 Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:25 AM

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I think your trying to apply tactics to randoms, that's a mistake as atleast for me I find randoms are about adaption to both your own team and the enemy, there are far to many variables to have set tactics, of course there are times when everything goes to plan but that's a rarity. I think if randoms were that predictable you would have plenty of players running around with 80-90% wr

iztok #8 Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:37 AM

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Hi!

In a "lemming train" case there are 2 strategies one can use.

1) lead / push / encourage the train. Sometimes works.

2) hold back near your spawn in good defensive position and wait for the inevitable rush. Works quite well if you have some support.

 

Never ever try to hold a flank alone. You'll be just overrun while (maybe) scoring 2-3 hits. Pull back to get at least some support. And keep calling for help. Sometimes even works. :(

 

BR,  Iztok



Enforcer1975 #9 Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:41 AM

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As already mentioned above too many players don't realize that they have the advantage and need to push but don't and give away the initiative  most of the time.
Had so many games f.e. on Live Oaks where the team stopped moving because they wanted to shoot at tanks even though they didn't have line of fire instead of keep moving and take the tip of the peninsula so they can fire at the enemy from two sides. Same with Lakeville where every bot in a slow heavy stops to aim at the tanks down the road for the first 3 minutes wasting time better spent on moving to town to help their fast tanks that have taken the good positions in advance and are waiting for support.

Hellfoxe #10 Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:45 AM

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View PostUserext, on 11 October 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

If enemy has a lot of TDs, pushing a flank ends with bloodbath. Don't do it.

not as simple as you might think. it's mostly situational that the variables can change way too much to say anything accurate.

 

Pushing a flank without encounter td is also trouble if two tanks and one autoloader tank can hold up 5 tanks in one location.

Edited by Hellfoxe, 12 October 2017 - 10:45 AM.


Enforcer1975 #11 Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:59 AM

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View PostHellfoxe, on 12 October 2017 - 10:45 AM, said:

 

Pushing a flank without encounter td is also trouble if two tanks and one autoloader tank can hold up 5 tanks in one location.

If one or a few tanks can stop twice their numbers just by popping in and out of cover those who don't realize they can win with numbers but don't push because nobody wants to take the first hit didn't deserve to win.

Had so many situations where i pinged the spot and my "teammates" and pressed help in advance only to find myself either with no support or very little. Sometimes it's just one or two low health tanks stopping them and i have to invest almost all of my hp pool to clear the way. Most players just can't see when they need to move up to help out. 



Noo_Noo #12 Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:52 AM

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Cheers all. Please continue.

I've noticed it far more in Tier 10 games to be honest where there is often the onus on the top tier tanks to lead the game. I just came across a couple of clear examples yesterday where it clearly affected the outcome of the game in a very obvious way, well to me anyway. I certainly need to work on it. 

magkiln #13 Posted 12 October 2017 - 11:53 AM

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View Postiztok, on 12 October 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

Never ever try to hold a flank alone. You'll be just overrun while (maybe) scoring 2-3 hits. Pull back to get at least some support. And keep calling for help. Sometimes even works. :(

 

 

I would take it one step further: Never be alone, anywhere. If you see that you're on your own, get back to where the rest of the team is, even if their position is not very good. If you're on your own, you die. And most of the time you'll die without even doing worthwhile damage. Sure, there are players who can take on three enemies and win, if they're having a good day, and if the enemy is stupid. Unfortunately, even in WoT you cannot count on the enemy being stupid. You're own team, yes; the enemy, no.

Baldrickk #14 Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:08 PM

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Makes me think of a recent game.

In Challenger on Murovanka.
Encounter game, South spawn.

I go forest and play scout (someone had to)
Enemy scout spotted elsewhere, and I spot enemy T29 hiding back in hulldown position.

From where he is, it's pretty clear that he's alone.
I have 4 tanks with me, three top tiers (8) and a tier 7 (tier 7/8 game).

I make the flanking run and ambush the T29 from the side.
Alpha beats DPM (headstart due to alphastrike) and I did with him a one-shot (ok, ok, I fluffed a couple of shots too)

Only then did my 4 allies push up.

Yes, I threw away my tank, but what that did was get my team to put their collective asses in gear and win the flank, so they could go and help win the cap flank.

We won that game. I didn't come very high on the team, but I  bet if I hadn't done that, they would still be sat there now, afraid to push on that lone T29.

Noo_Noo #15 Posted 12 October 2017 - 12:45 PM

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View PostBaldrickk, on 12 October 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

Makes me think of a recent game.

In Challenger on Murovanka.
Encounter game, South spawn.

I go forest and play scout (someone had to)
Enemy scout spotted elsewhere, and I spot enemy T29 hiding back in hulldown position.

From where he is, it's pretty clear that he's alone.
I have 4 tanks with me, three top tiers (8) and a tier 7 (tier 7/8 game).

I make the flanking run and ambush the T29 from the side.
Alpha beats DPM (headstart due to alphastrike) and I did with him a one-shot (ok, ok, I fluffed a couple of shots too)

Only then did my 4 allies push up.

Yes, I threw away my tank, but what that did was get my team to put their collective asses in gear and win the flank, so they could go and help win the cap flank.

We won that game. I didn't come very high on the team, but I bet if I hadn't done that, they would still be sat there now, afraid to push on that lone T29.

 

yeah I can correlate with that. One of the games I mentioned yesterday would have resulted me pushing against a batchat 12t and leopard 1 and an FV4202 from memory. probably something else there too. That Batchat stopped me from pushing but had the 4 of us gone together we would have won the flank nice and early as we had already whittled down their health a bit.

 

I guess I should have tried to figure out when he was reloading. That said when I did push I wasn't followed so it probably wouldn't have mattered.



Captain_Kremen0 #16 Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:03 PM

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View PostEnforcer1975, on 12 October 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

As already mentioned above too many players don't realize that they have the advantage and need to push but don't and give away the initiative most of the time.
Had so many games f.e. on Live Oaks where the team stopped moving because they wanted to shoot at tanks even though they didn't have line of fire instead of keep moving and take the tip of the peninsula so they can fire at the enemy from two sides. Same with Lakeville  (insert map name)where every bot in a slow heavy stops to aim at the tanks down the road for the first 3 minutes wasting time better spent on moving to town to help their fast tanks that have taken the good positions in advance and are waiting for support.

Made things a little better.



BicycleOfDeath #17 Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:37 PM

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Happens to me all the time that my team is too scared to take a hit on a flank with an obvious advantage. I've been in a tier 10 game in my T-44 where my team was 8 vs. 3 in the Lakeville valley for about five minutes, and no one would push over until I decided to go there and drive over the hill in my bottom tier tank. I was lucky that some of them woke up and came with me that time. Just as common that they still sit back and watch me die. In the end I'd rather throw away my bottom tier tank for a chance of a win than sit back and pad wn8 after my team collapses.

 

Trying to control or push a flank and take key positions used to work better before 9.18. There are more bad players now. Probably arty players trying to play real tanks since they can't oneshot anymore.



clixor #18 Posted 12 October 2017 - 01:45 PM

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What still keeps amazing me is that you see players with 10k+ battles who really play super passive (for reasons mentioned above) and STILL don't realize that they will lose ALL their HP in like 10s if they participate/push/take some risk. I mean, even if you take that 1k+ dmg from a JPE100 it's better than being totally useless.

Rati_Festa #19 Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:00 PM

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View PostBicycleOfDeath, on 12 October 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Happens to me all the time that my team is too scared to take a hit on a flank with an obvious advantage. I've been in a tier 10 game in my T-44 where my team was 8 vs. 3 in the Lakeville valley for about five minutes, and no one would push over until I decided to go there and drive over the hill in my bottom tier tank. I was lucky that some of them woke up and came with me that time. Just as common that they still sit back and watch me die. In the end I'd rather throw away my bottom tier tank for a chance of a win than sit back and pad wn8 after my team collapses.

 

Trying to control or push a flank and take key positions used to work better before 9.18. There are more bad players now. Probably arty players trying to play real tanks since they can't oneshot anymore.

 

T10, t44, lakeview valley doesnt paint a very good picture of ur tank placement. Never go in that valley ever, never go in that valley when ur bottom tier ever, never go in that valley in a light or med cos u lose ur main asset ( speed ).

 

Pushing flanks only works with decent support, i play quite aggresively and the amount of games lost due to pure timid play is frustrating.



Noo_Noo #20 Posted 12 October 2017 - 05:23 PM

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Well just came off one successful game which I'm chuffed to say I helped turn into a win. 

Prokhorovka again, north spawn. I went to the hill with a Centurion AX. yet again there were massive amounts of our HP and guns parked on the 1 line. At least this time they had a Batchat with them and could try and spot. I thought the Centurion and myself were in real trouble at one point when he peaked over the ridge of the hill and lost over 50% of his HP to an IS7 and a T57 heavy. I fell back thinking that if they yolo'd over the top we'd be done. I started to work my way over to the 1 line to help when I realised that they didn't push. So i went back and with the help of a Swedish TD and Arty I was able to spot the top and take the odd shot into the centre. That cleared out the hill and thankfully when we saw the IS7 retreating myself the STRV and Centurion went for it. We came across a Batchat and and E50M who had spotted the weak flank but were able to dispose of them simply through having more HP. That won us the game as we could push into their base and then into the bottom corner where the rest of them were camping. 

Nice little game as I ended up with 2850 damage and 4450 spotting. Crazy thing was we had 5 tanks including and IS7, E100, T57 heavy and a Type 5 heavy that did zero damage. Not one of the enemy had a zero damage game.

 

So I got it right for a change but the support made all the difference.






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